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Old February 18th, 2016, 05:45 PM   #2501
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Thank you Saxon MP Stanislaw Tilich for returning these items that were looted from the Wilanow Palace during the war:

On the left a cabinet by Max Schnell from the 18th Century and on the right a woman's writing desk from 1745 by Jacques Dubois.

This is truly a noble example of how a good neighbour and members of the European family should treat each other.

Vielen Dank und willkommen in Polen Stanislaw Tilich!

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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old February 18th, 2016, 09:14 PM   #2502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
Most tourists don't realize that there are about 55 blocks of above in the downtown south district (srodmiescie poludniowe).
In my experience - many do know - but what they find more interesting are the areas which visually reflect the recent history 1939 - present.

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I was walking to the Pawia Prison location and met a Chinese tourist with his camera - standing amongst the commi blocks. I said what are you doing here? The tourist centre is miles from here. He said "I may look like a stupid tourist - but I know history when I see it. If i can't see it - I can feel it."
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
I rather suspect that he read about Pawiak in the guide, but he was too polite to admit it
The Chinese man had just come from Paris and Prague. He still had those guides in his bag. He said "I do not require a guide to feel compelled to visit - a walk the path of the honorable - who fought to the last brick for freedom and dignity".
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Originally Posted by Titan Man View Post
that Chinese tourist will leave the city after few days but Varsovians are stuck with their city pretty much every day. Now, I don't know how they feel about them or if they hate them
The Chinese man lives in a Commi-block back in China - similar to those in Muranow. He said " It is my home I never think about what it looks like - I never look up. I think of going to work - paying my bills - enjoy my social life and try to relax whenever I can".

PS. When I was in Prague - I asked a local what it was like living in the centre of beautiful Prague. She said the same thing...

Last edited by FreeeSpirit; February 18th, 2016 at 09:19 PM.
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Old February 18th, 2016, 10:42 PM   #2503
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What I like about Warsaw is that it has many examples of architecture from all styles and eras. It's not a museum city and it's not overly contemporary.
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Old February 18th, 2016, 11:30 PM   #2504
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Originally Posted by FreeeSpirit View Post
Warsaw - not too big - not too small - perfectly proportioned - get anywhere within 20 minutes
From Białołęka to Mordor in 20 minutes

Perhaps possible by racing car in the middle of the night

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Originally Posted by FreeeSpirit View Post
(...) tall buildings in the Centre (like an American City - wide ranging surrounding districts - within a grid of broad roads to allow traffic circulation
Warsaw has one of the worst traffic jams in Europe And that is - among other reasons - precisely because modernist planners cut the centre fabric by wide thoroughfares and spreaded the city over 500 sq km.

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I don't see how this is true. Despite the fact that Southern downtown, Old Mokotów, Old Ochota, Żoliborz are all 90% complete, there are lots of infills planned, U/C or already completed.
Old Ochota and Żoliborz? Infills? Where?

Old Mokotów and Centre South are indeed the area with lots of infills, but it's still low number comparing to Wrocław/Poznań.

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The only city with more "real" urban infills may be Wrocław, but soon most of its "historic" areas will be complete and Wroclaw will be on the same boat.
See Poznań Wilda.

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Wola, Powiśle, Praga North and South (Grochów, Kamionek) are full of empty plots waiting to be filled.
I'm not talking about future. Probably there will be lots of infills in those areas, except from Wola, where I can't imagine what do you want to fill with?
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Old February 18th, 2016, 11:55 PM   #2505
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Also, I fail to see how having multiple-lane "highways" in the centre is good for a city. They totally kill the urbanity of the place and they are just not 21st century oriented. We should encourage people to use public transport system, which is far more ecological than everyday-traffic jams.
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Old February 19th, 2016, 02:43 AM   #2506
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
From Białołęka to Mordor in 20 minutes

Perhaps possible by racing car in the middle of the night
The 20 minutes usually refers to - from the CENTRE to Mlociny, Kabaty, Rembertow, Ursus etc etc bla bla.

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Warsaw has one of the worst traffic jams in Europe And that is - among other reasons - precisely because modernist planners cut the centre fabric by wide thoroughfares and spreaded the city over 500 sq km.
Sources please. Lots of nonsense on the internet. I saw a site on the internet which said Warsaw was No.1 worst in Europe for traffic. As if Warsaw is worse than London. Total crap!

When I work in London it takes me 1 hour 45 minutes to travel 11km peak time LOL!! In Warsaw ?????

In peak hours, any self-respecting city has traffic - because lots of people have cars and they want to work.

Any other off-peak time you can drive from Dw. Gdanski to Pl Uni Lub. (8.2km) in 10 minutes.
In London - the same distance 22 minutes - Paris - 17 minutes, Vienna - 19 minutes, Berlin - 16 minutes

The width of a road has no baring on traffic. Its the amount of cars in a any specified time Therefore - in a large city - the amount of cars will be higher - therefore requiring - a wider road OF COURSE you can limit
the amount of cars on a road - or stop them completely - but that just limits transportation possibilities for the citizens. Great for tourists and hippies though

Last edited by FreeeSpirit; February 19th, 2016 at 03:20 AM.
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Old February 19th, 2016, 03:02 AM   #2507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan Man View Post
Also, I fail to see how having multiple-lane "highways" in the centre is good for a city. They totally kill the urbanity of the place and they are just not 21st century oriented. We should encourage people to use public transport system, which is far more ecological than everyday-traffic jams.
Again - out of touch with reality. When was the last time you tried to take 5 bags of equipment (75KG) onto a bus?? What happens when there is no bus/tram stop anywhere near your destination?? Many people depend on their cars for work. It gives them Independence - flexibility - to compete and be competitive. Lots of people do take public transport. Lots of people cycle. Lots of people walk! - and - lots of people drive.

Wide roads keep the circulation around the city - in off peak times

Last edited by FreeeSpirit; February 19th, 2016 at 03:14 AM.
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Old February 19th, 2016, 02:20 PM   #2508
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Quote:
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The 20 minutes usually refers to - from the CENTRE to Mlociny, Kabaty, Rembertow, Ursus etc etc bla bla.
Once I rode in a taxi from centre to Ursus in more than an hour. Nothing unusual happened, just normal traffic.
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Old February 19th, 2016, 03:02 PM   #2509
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Once I rode in a taxi from centre to Ursus in more than an hour. Nothing unusual happened, just normal traffic.
The key word here is "Once"

Once I took a taxi from Ul. Mazowiecka to The Bristol Hotel - and he tried to take me the looooooong way round. LOL
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Old February 19th, 2016, 03:38 PM   #2510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeeSpirit View Post
Again - out of touch with reality. When was the last time you tried to take 5 bags of equipment (75KG) onto a bus?? What happens when there is no bus/tram stop anywhere near your destination?? Many people depend on their cars for work. It gives them Independence - flexibility - to compete and be competitive. Lots of people do take public transport. Lots of people cycle. Lots of people walk! - and - lots of people drive.

Wide roads keep the circulation around the city - in off peak times
You're missing the point - again. When one really needs to go somewhere with car, of course he will use it. But this is 21st century, some cities are thinking about banning cars in the city centre, and Warsaw should think about it, as well. You may like 20th century urbanism, but guess what - that time is gone. Cities should develop their public transport systems, subways especially, and I fail to see why Warsaw, as a growing and exciting European capital, shouldn't do it. People should start getting used to move in the city with trams, subway and such, and take their cars only when they really need it. Just because Warsaw has huge roads doesn't mean they it shouldn't slowly replace them with something more contemporary.

Also, I believe that Mruczek knows quite a lot about Warsaw so you shouldn't label his statements as false just because they sound "strange" to you.
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Old February 20th, 2016, 02:41 AM   #2511
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But this is 21st century, some cities are thinking about banning cars in the city centre, Cities should develop their public transport systems, subways especially
Yes for most undamaged cities in Europe which were not designed for the car. That makes sense because the streets are too small to cope with modern life - which includes the car. Post-war Warsaw was designed for the car - they had the unique opportunity to start from zero. The example of USA cities again. Most are designed for the car and work well. They are different from European cities - but still successful.

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People should start getting used to move in the city with trams, subway and such, and take their cars only when they really need it.
That's if you are lucky to be going where there is public transport. There is no point to get here. Driverless cars are being tested now and will be the norm before too long - but they will still need appropriate sized roads for the growing city population. The large multi-laned roads in Warsaw are actually slowly being renovated to include Cycle paths, bus lanes, car lanes and wider pavements for people. Although less lanes for cars, the overall traffic (motor and public) is just being re-arranged to include all traffic in a more efficient way - because the roads were made wider after the war. This cannot be done in most other cities because the roads are just not wide enough. So in Warsaw - motor vehicles, cycles and people will all be able to enjoy the roads - and not just one or the other.

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Also, I believe that Mruczek knows quite a lot about Warsaw so you shouldn't label his statements as false just because they sound "strange" to you.
I'm not saying his statements are false, I'm just asking for evidence of that statement - because anyone can say anything and it may not actually be true. I've sat in London Traffic for 20 years and Warsaw traffic for 9 years and I can directly compare the two. London IS a nightmare with traffic everyday, all day, without fail - that's why they have the congestion charge - the roads are narrow, winding, confusing, cyclists weaving in/out of traffic, people walking into the road like sheep -

it's MESSY (whoops - that word sounds familar .

This big road has just been completed. More will follow. It will mature in time with more greenery and street architecture. Why takeaway when you can give the people all options. Under this road is also the metro of course.


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Old February 20th, 2016, 04:21 PM   #2512
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This big road has just been completed. More will follow. It will mature in time with more greenery and street architecture. Why takeaway when you can give the people all options. Under this road is also the metro of course.

This "big road" (designed as Świętokrzyska in 1950s) has just been narrowed from 4-5 lanes + 20 metres wide area for illegal parking (so impudent that agressive drivers were riding through the pavement to search for place to park).

The top speed was reduced from 50 km/h to 30 km/h.

I might add it was all done against strong protests of small but noisy group of car-terrorists and with complete contradiction of the city concept of 1960s according to which Warsaw centre was rebuild.

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The 20 minutes usually refers to - from the CENTRE to Mlociny, Kabaty, Rembertow, Ursus etc etc bla bla.
I think we can stop the discussion at that point
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Old February 21st, 2016, 10:30 PM   #2513
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More infill in Downtown South District (Śródmieście Południowe) on Koszykowa and Piekna Streets:

Pre-war



Now

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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old February 21st, 2016, 10:36 PM   #2514
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The Library of the Higher Clergy Seminary on the Warsaw Escarpment:

The original proposal provoked a great deal of controversy. In response, the clerics have embarked on an open public process that has yielded a building that will blend into the Warsaw escarpment and the 375 year old terraces created by the Carmelites:

Conceptual Variations



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Old February 24th, 2016, 08:01 PM   #2515
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I'm not sure was it here already, 1936 British video (with commentary in English) about pre-war Warsaw showing many of the lost architectural gems:



Anyone going to mark some of the buildings lost/reconstructed/to be reconstructed?
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Old February 24th, 2016, 09:50 PM   #2516
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Further to my discussion with Mruczek, found this interesting statistic that shows Warsaw (despite massive devastation) and a number of other cities in Europe in a favourable light with respect to how much of their city is historic generally compact core and how much is sprawl or new suburban development.

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Old February 25th, 2016, 12:15 PM   #2517
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Quote:
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Further to my discussion with Mruczek, found this interesting statistic that shows Warsaw (despite massive devastation) and a number of other cities in Europe in a favourable light with respect to how much of their city is historic generally compact core and how much is sprawl or new suburban development.

Oh, Warsaw more historical than London or Paris, rejoice!

No, really. Do you realize that the "historical core" on this graphics means just "official city limits" (or Inner London limits in case of London)?
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Old February 25th, 2016, 10:45 PM   #2518
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Quote:
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Further to my discussion with Mruczek, found this interesting statistic that shows Warsaw (despite massive devastation) and a number of other cities in Europe in a favourable light with respect to how much of their city is historic generally compact core and how much is sprawl or new suburban development.

This chart is too funny
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Old February 26th, 2016, 05:23 AM   #2519
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1895



1895



1885


https://www.facebook.com/DomSpotkanz...ia/?fref=photo
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Old February 26th, 2016, 06:17 AM   #2520
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Oh, Warsaw more historical than London or Paris, rejoice!

No, really. Do you realize that the "historical core" on this graphics means just "official city limits" (or Inner London limits in case of London)?
yes, but old city limits generally correlates to compact forms of development. The point I am making that Warsaw, despite the qualities that you all enjoy citing to detract from it, has largely escaped the hideous sprawl that defines so many western cities. These are areas that are neither urban nor rural, but full of ugly. Mruczek spoke of urbanistyka lanowa in Poland, well imagine if your city was 2/3 lanowa like Toronto or Houston.

Our perception of a city, as tourists especially, is based on the centre city, true, but for many cities, the central old core is a very small portion. Most people live in a far different reality that what tourists think when they visit Paris for example.

What many don't realize is that Toronto my home since birth is a city where 60% of the population is low income or poor and where 1/3 children live below the poverty level. This applies to many western cities. But if you were to walk down my street in central Toronto you would think aren't Torontonians lucky to live in such an amazing city, not knowing that the 60% poor live in ugly inner and outer suburbs.

On this basis, Warsaw looks better than many western cities. Warsaw and Poland is not rich but it does not have the great disparities in wealth of most.

And no I'm not comparing Warsaw to Paris or London....because it is so much better.
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