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Old February 26th, 2016, 03:55 PM   #2521
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Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
yes, but old city limits generally correlates to compact forms of development.
All this graphic is saying is that the boundary of the "historical core" of Warsaw (defined as "the smallest area corresponding or including the pre-automobile core for which data is readily available", so let's say 1920) constitutes ~52% of today's the 'Metropolitan' boundary. Warsaw's "historical core" boundary includes areas like Marymont, Ochota, Siekierki which might as well have been suburban / semi-rural in character and after the war, the replacement of dense urban fabric with apartment neighbourhoods (or the creation of such neighbourhoods in semi-rural areas) really makes this graphic unhelpful to your point.

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The point I am making that Warsaw, despite the qualities that you all enjoy citing to detract from it, has largely escaped the hideous sprawl that defines so many western cities.
Largely untrue. Warsaw, like most socialist cities, was expanded through housing projects that grew up in clusters and/or districts radiating from the core, including Ursynow. The only difference from the garden suburb / "sprawl" is the form of housing.

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Mruczek spoke of urbanistyka lanowa in Poland, well imagine if your city was 2/3 lanowa like Toronto or Houston. [...] But if you were to walk down my street in central Toronto you would think aren't Torontonians lucky to live in such an amazing city, not knowing that the 60% poor live in ugly inner and outer suburbs.
Moot point.
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Old February 26th, 2016, 08:29 PM   #2522
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......Warsaw's "historical core" boundary includes areas like Marymont, Ochota, Siekierki which might as well have been suburban / semi-rural in character and after the war, the replacement of dense urban fabric with apartment neighbourhoods (or the creation of such neighbourhoods in semi-rural areas) really makes this graphic unhelpful to your point.
Compared to places like Vaughan and Markham I wouldn't call Ochota and other places that suffered the scourge of war like Wola semi-rural. The dominant typology of development is the perimeter block, loosened up by commies to allow air and light. People actually walk on the streets in Wola and despite all the gaps caused by wartime destruction, it has a much more urban feel. I do agree cities like Warsaw did build clusters of apartment towers in farflung areas not to mention downtown, but not that many and huge areas of low density never happened.

Ochota



Vaughan - typical Toronto suburban edge city condition. what you see here is 99% single family homes, no grid pattern to maintain fluidity of movement, no connections between streets even for pedestrians.



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Largely untrue. Warsaw, like most socialist cities, was expanded through housing projects that grew up in clusters and/or districts radiating from the core, including Ursynow. The only difference from the garden suburb / "sprawl" is the form of housing.
the difference is also density and the presence of transit. but yes, lots of ambiguous green spaces between buildings, but these areas are seeing infill now whereas it will be very hard to retrofit the sprawl in Vaughan or Markham. They will leave these unsustainable areas alone for now and concentrate on very high density offsets in major transit nodal areas which have as yet not been built.
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Old February 26th, 2016, 09:00 PM   #2523
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Vaughan - typical Toronto suburban edge city condition. what you see here is 99% single family homes, no grid pattern to maintain fluidity of movement, no connections between streets even for pedestrians.
I'm still struggling to see why you're comparing Warsaw, founded in ~1200, to a Toronto suburb which was founded for all intents and purposes in ~1970. If you're going to speak to edge conditions, your direct comparison for Vaughan would be Tarchomin or Bialoleka, and not Ochota, which would be the equivalent of Parkdale etc.

And, if anything, the map you've shown of Vaughan disproves your point on logistics: arterial streets are built out in a grid pattern (following historic concession lines), collector streets connect between the arterial grid to support traffic flow and local streets diffuse there; this three tier system is supported by highway interchanges at arterial intersections, regional rail (all day, two way) and a bus rapid transit system that feeds into an existing metro network. This system functions much more effectively than in Tarchomin or Bialoleka.

If your point was that Vaughan will be hard to retrofit in the future, you only need to take a drive down many suburban arterials where medium density development (townhouses), mid-rise development and/or mixed use projects are happening and new streetscapes are emerging.

But in any event, my overall point was, "historic" does not necessary mean dense, but rather, within an old boundary.
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Old February 26th, 2016, 10:30 PM   #2524
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The point I'm making which has gotten lost in the discussion is about perceptions of cities and in this case our perception of Warsaw, which is tied into an earlier discussion of whether Warsaw is beautiful.

Warsaw is not all commie blocks and empty lots with remnants of ruins around a tiny little Disneyesque old town and Toronto is not all prim Edwardian neighbourhoods and trendy Queen Street type conditions. Only 700,000 people live in the latter condition, the rest in sprawl and some slightly compact edge cities based on historic settlements. There are other realities that are not so pleasant.

My main postulate is that the less sprawl (urbanistyka lanowa for Polish version and more planned variants) the more attractive a city overall.

My other postulate is that we perceive our city and visitors perceive our city based on the city centre - or the extent of our experience. We don't have a sense of place, based on the composite of experiences that define our city, but mainly on where we live/visit and what we travel through.

My final postulate is that Polish people and others have a bias towards things Polish, they look at all things Warsaw and Poland through a very negative lens. This is a form of prejudice which will take more time to remedy. For example, a friend of mine designs zoos. We were on a trip last year in Poland and I discovered that Wroclaw has an amazing zoo. She inquired through her colleagues about it and was told that there are no zoos worth seeing in Poland. we went to the Wroclaw zoo and it blew her away. She was advised to see the Berlin and London zoo, but there's nothing really great in Poland. Wroclaw zoo is actually the second largest in the world based on species number. Many such biases exist about Poland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by intervention: And, if anything, the map you've shown of Vaughan disproves your point on logistics: arterial streets are built out in a grid pattern (following historic concession lines), collector streets connect between the arterial grid to support traffic flow and local streets diffuse there; this three tier system is supported by highway interchanges at arterial intersections, regional rail (all day, two way) and a bus rapid transit system that feeds into an existing metro network. This system functions much more effectively than in Tarchomin or Bialoleka.
Yes, in an ideal world that would be the case. Sadly, the idea of a fused grid has not taken hold in Vaughan or other Toronto suburbs. It is very difficult to get from arterials to any internal destination in any given block, there is very poor fluidity. If you look at Tarchomin, it has a nicely ramified transit system of buses that feed into a tram that feeds into the metro. For most residents of Toronto suburbs it takes a greater effort because of greater distances and the scale of sprawl to get to a bus stop and they have to time it perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by intervention: If your point was that Vaughan will be hard to retrofit in the future, you only need to take a drive down many suburban arterials where medium density development (townhouses), mid-rise development and/or mixed use projects are happening and new streetscapes are emerging
yes it is happening, albeit very slowly. Vaughan city centre has a long way to go to become ped-friendly and there are many conditions such as backlotting that are not conducive to intensification.

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Old February 26th, 2016, 10:56 PM   #2525
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Redevelopment of Historic Prudential Building into Hotel Warszawa



thanks Ring
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Old February 27th, 2016, 06:10 PM   #2526
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Am I right that the works were suspended for some time?
Glad to see works started again.
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Old February 27th, 2016, 06:54 PM   #2527
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I wouldn't say suspended, more like financing and finishing other projects, now they are focussing on this one.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 08:03 PM   #2528
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Another nice infill on Kopernika Street in Downtown Warsaw. This lot has been empty since post war.



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Pre-war

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Old February 29th, 2016, 04:04 AM   #2529
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My final postulate is that Polish people and others have a bias towards things Polish, they look at all things Warsaw and Poland through a very negative lens. This is a form of prejudice which will take more time to remedy. For example, a friend of mine designs zoos. We were on a trip last year in Poland and I discovered that Wroclaw has an amazing zoo. She inquired through her colleagues about it and was told that there are no zoos worth seeing in Poland. We went to the Wroclaw zoo and it blew her away. She was advised to see the Berlin and London zoo, but there's nothing really great in Poland. Wroclaw zoo is actually the second largest in the world based on species number. Many such biases exist about Poland.
I have to kind of agree with this, having been raised in North America. It's quite sad really but alternative media is the only way to fight this problem. And these colleagues I assume were supposed to be "educated"? My ass.
It's like when people ask "What's in Poland?". Well get on Wikipedia or use Google for fu*ks sake. Or come on Skyscrapercity.

The old generations are too biased and prejudice. Hope is with the young people. Anyone 30 or under.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 06:58 AM   #2530
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I agree hope is with the young. I convinced a young gay couple to visit Poland and they had a ball, they did it over new years. An Englishman and his muslim wife also went and were amazed by Warsaw. I actually thought they were just being nice and then I quizzed them and it was for real. Mainstream media are very prejudiced over central Europe and other parts of the world, except maybe Prague. There really is nothing between Berlin and Moscow in their opinions. On the other hand, Poland needs to make an effort to put its best foot forward, promote what it has, spend some money, word of mouth isn't enough. Polish people are its best ambassadors.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 03:57 PM   #2531
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Just thinking, in which place would you locate Poland or Warsaw in the list of places people should visit in their live? Something like books which must be read.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 04:31 PM   #2532
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I agree hope is with the young. I convinced a young gay couple to visit Poland and they had a ball, they did it over new years. An Englishman and his muslim wife also went and were amazed by Warsaw. I actually thought they were just being nice and then I quizzed them and it was for real. Mainstream media are very prejudiced over central Europe and other parts of the world, except maybe Prague. There really is nothing between Berlin in Moscow in their opinions. On the other hand, Poland needs to make an effort to put its best foot forward, promote what it has, spend some money, word of mouth isn't enough. Polish people are its best ambassadors.
Same here in Croatia, at least until a year or two. Ignorant fools (we know who I'm talking about ) look at us Slavs like we're some drug or organ dealers ( ) and like our countries have nothing to offer (Dubrovnik and Krakow escaping the prejudice). The truth actually is that we have a gigantic heritage. I, for instance, have few Polish cities on my list-to-visit, more than any other country. Just look at Torun, Gdansk, Krakow, Zamosc and others, some of the most beautiful cities in Europe. Hope things will change in few years, 'cause our crappy reputation is just stupid and silly.
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Old March 2nd, 2016, 06:35 PM   #2533
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Many more infills in Warsaw are being located where once were so-called modernist pavilions that sold special products like furniture and drugs during communist times:

Przeskok in a grim Post war rendition



New pavilion on Przeskok in its glory days:



Looked like this a few years ago:



and now it begins to redefine some street faces and frame views to the palace. there is a large square to the north.













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Old March 2nd, 2016, 06:38 PM   #2534
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The Chemia Pavilion on Bracka has been replaced with a retail building:

Post war



Many of these spaces were used mainly as parking lots



Today





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Old March 2nd, 2016, 06:44 PM   #2535
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The Emilia Furniture Store now serving as the Museum of Modern Art may soon get rebuilt in the park across the street to make way for a skyscraper:

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Old March 2nd, 2016, 06:56 PM   #2536
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Update on redevelopment of Koszyki Hall (South Downtown District):



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Old March 2nd, 2016, 07:01 PM   #2537
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Creativity Centre - North Praga District:













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Old March 3rd, 2016, 11:16 AM   #2538
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LAMPS

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Old March 7th, 2016, 05:20 PM   #2539
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this pic sums up the architectural spirit of Warsaw nicely, although we can't ignore the interwar modern. Good job tramwaj

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Old March 14th, 2016, 09:07 PM   #2540
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Koszyki Market Hall Revitalization update:

not sure if any original steel members were used as was originally discussed.









thanks TM025 for pics
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