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Old February 26th, 2012, 04:33 AM   #641
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A look at Warsaw from 1890 - 1900.





Notice Zygmunt's Column was rebuilt minus the sculptures at the bottom and the barrier. Too bad. It was more opulent.
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Old February 26th, 2012, 04:35 AM   #642
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Quote:
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On this plan you can see the collonnaded hall and below is the exterior elevation:



Not sure of the whereabouts of the original sculptures, it's been 200 years since the art gallery was organized there, knowing Polish history, they could be anywhere.
Thank you! It is also a beautiful building on the outside!
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Old February 26th, 2012, 05:11 AM   #643
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Guys what's the story behind this train station. Not much is mentioned about it. Will it be revitalized? It's such a great structure. A lot of character.



image hosted on flickr
Poland 446 by Mike Rychlik, on Flickr
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Old February 26th, 2012, 05:24 AM   #644
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Hope they save these.


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Old February 26th, 2012, 05:34 AM   #645
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Looks kind of original but I'm not sure.



This is near Wilanow and I hope they do something with it.
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Old February 26th, 2012, 05:43 AM   #646
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The Wisla riverfront during the commie years. I don't know what happened. Warsaw turned it's back on this river. There used to be more life. Hopefully this changes soon.
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Old February 26th, 2012, 05:46 AM   #647
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http://www.facebook.com/WarszawaNieznana?sk=wall

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Old February 26th, 2012, 07:29 AM   #648
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some really haunting images here. To think that Varsovians lived in ruins still years after the war when Stalin's Palace of Culture was brand spanking new. That train station I believe is Dwor Mazowiecki - it will be renovated as buses will take passengers to/from there from the new airport at Modlin until a dedicated train connection is completed in 2013/14, I believe.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old February 26th, 2012, 12:26 PM   #649
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Quote:
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Looks kind of original but I'm not sure.
I can easily picture that image hanging in a frame in an art gallery somewhere.

Nice picture
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Old February 26th, 2012, 05:59 PM   #650
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that pic does look original. many of the main floors and often up to the first floor above along with basements and their centuries old vaulting actually survived the war intact in the old town. that is in the old town for sure. you can see the threshold stone worn with centuries of use. very few interiors survived though.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #651
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Elements like doors and windows were often translocated from other parts of the country, mostly Silesian cities like Wroclaw, Brzeg and Nysa. Just one example: the Baroque lattice doors of the Protestant burial faults in Jelenia Gora were moved to Warsaw in the 60s.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 07:21 PM   #652
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Though there may have been some of this, the extent has been vastly over-emphasized.

My parents are from Jelenia Gora, my grandfather's brother worked in the municipal administration. The motives for removing portions of its dense urban core were motivated by 60's ideals of light, open space and the communist mantra of "the same for all." By the 1960's, the periphery of Plac Ratuszowy had become decrepit and suffered from about 30 years of neglect. The buildings were old and needed to be renovated or come down, not unlike today. The periphery of Plac Ratuszowy was renovated in the 1970's but the surrounding streets did not see anything until the late 1990's. Many buildings came down during this time because there was no money to renovate them and the "bricks for Warsaw" mantra was a popular scapegoat.

But, that's another topic.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 08:12 PM   #653
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Elements like doors and windows were often translocated from other parts of the country, mostly Silesian cities like Wroclaw, Brzeg and Nysa. Just one example: the Baroque lattice doors of the Protestant burial faults in Jelenia Gora were moved to Warsaw in the 60s.
this is true, but you are grossly exagerrating by saying "often". the reconstruction of Warsaw involved much more than that, besides only about 35-40% of pre-war Warsaw was reconstructed depending on how you look at it. on the other hand, about 50% of Poland's art treasures, including sculpture and fine arts and furnishings are still missing and it is known that a lot of it is in Germany but negotiations to repatriate have been difficult. over time, I think this will be resolved. if you've ever toured the historic interiors of restored Warsaw buildings, you will note the paucity of historic furnishings, the accumulation of centuries is gone and it is often these interiors that give a place a sense of authenticity.

Karasek, do you have pics of the Baroque lattice doors you mentioned - would be curious to figure out where they are now, unless you know.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 08:56 PM   #654
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Karasek, do you have pics of the Baroque lattice doors you mentioned - would be curious to figure out where they are now, unless you know.
I don't know where they are now. I remember that in one of my books the responsible person is mentioned, which, according to my book, was quite well known for saving one or more of Warsaws cemeteries. I will have a look tomorrow.

Here are pics of the cemetery in Jelenia Gora (great website btw.!):
http://wroclaw.hydral.com.pl/39143,obiekt.html
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Old February 27th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #655
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I have always read that 40% of Poland's national treasures are missing and may never return quite simply because someone out there may not know what they have. I think the main problem in Warsaw is that those old mansions and manors were often looted during the war and peoples individual belongings may be scattered not only in Germany but in Austria and Russia too.

At my cousins place in Karpacz, his father found some old German stuff in the house decades ago. They have it on display now and it's all original. I have no idea of the history behind it.









These swords are interesting.

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Old February 27th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #656
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Have you guys heard of the Berlinka art collection?

It is the Polish name for a German collection of historic material which was originally kept at the Preu▀ische Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin, the Prussian State Library at Berlin, but which is now kept in the Jagiellonian Library in Krakˇw.

The Berlinka is known to contain over 300,000 prints and manuscripts by individuals such as Martin Luther, Beethoven, Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, and Friedrich Schiller and also a collection of aircrafts from the beginning of air travel. It also contains linguistic studies by the Grimm Brothers as well as many manuscripts and incunables from Polish monasteries in Gniezno, Lubiń, Mogilno, Pakość, Paradyż, Pelplin and Poznań, removed by Prussian authorities after the partitions of Poland between 1820 and 1840.

Poland claims that it should retain ownership of the Berlinka as compensation for Polish historical collections destroyed or looted by Germans during the Second World War; the total worth of Polish cultural heritage destroyed by Germany is estimated at 20 billion dollars. Some German media have referred to the Berlinka as the "last German prisoner of war", and claimed that Poland is in violation of the Hague Convention of 1907. (bullshit!)

In summer 2007, Der Spiegel quoted German foreign ministry representative Julia Gross as saying that negotiations over the disposition of the Berlinka had reached a low point. Earlier, Poland had stated that the return is out of the question. Previously, Poland has undertaken several initiatives, such as proposing a creation of a Polish-German foundation that would take possession of such disputed collections, but Germany has refused, each time demanding that Poland return the Berlinka unconditionally; Poland refuses, claiming that Germany still has much Polish material looted during WWII, and that this should be returned to Poland in exchange.

http://en.wikipedia.g-webs.com/wiki/...art_collection)

http://polishpress.wordpress.com/200...ks-to-germany/
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Old February 27th, 2012, 10:50 PM   #657
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the looting of Poland by the Nazis and Soviets was on a scale never before seen, the Berlinka collection is a small compensation in comparison to Poland's losses despite its importance; however, if Germans or whoever can produce the Czartoryski Raphael along with substantial collections taken from Poland, why should not the Berlinka at least be part of negotiations, but negotiations would have to take into account the really big picture of war damage and atrocities in Poland, not to diminish anyone else's suffering of course.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 12:59 AM   #658
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the looting of Poland by the Nazis and Soviets was on a scale never before soon, the Berlinka collection is a small compensation in comparison to Poland despite its importance; however, if Germans or whoever can produce the Czartoryski Raphael along with substantial collections taken from Poland, why should not the Berlinka at least be part of negotiations, but negotiations would have to take into account the really big picture of war damage and atrocities in Poland, not to diminish anyone else's suffering of course.
Well said. I agree.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 04:00 AM   #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
the looting of Poland by the Nazis and Soviets was on a scale never before soon, the Berlinka collection is a small compensation in comparison to Poland despite its importance; however, if Germans or whoever can produce the Czartoryski Raphael along with substantial collections taken from Poland, why should not the Berlinka at least be part of negotiations,
Sounds fair enough.


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but negotiations would have to take into account the really big picture of war damage and atrocities in Poland, not to diminish anyone else's suffering of course.
And therein lies the deal breaker. That latter consideration - valid though it be - is just vague enough to forever preclude arriving at any specific terms for an exchange.



Sad to say, but it would have been better for everyone involved had those items remained in Berlin and subsequently went up in smoke.

As it is, the Germans will never see those treasures anyway. And, by holding on to them, the Poles will diminish the quality of their relations with Germany in perpetuity.

It's a no win deal for both.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 06:27 AM   #660
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I see your point, but once again, looking at the big picture of cultural loss (hard not to), it would be hard for the Poles to not be quid pro quo literally. Poland's suggestion of creating a joint cultural institution where all would have access and it would be called a "European" institution such as the European Music Archives or something like that which could be a repository of originals and copies of original compositions by all the greats is actually a very fair solution but also a precedent for Europe in creating a shared cultural institution.

Anyway, I think when some of Poland's treasures begin to surface and I really hope that unlike the Zaluski and Krasinski library Collection where ancient original manuscripts of most of Poland's great writers went up in smoke like in Fahrenheit 451, I hope they still exist somewhere or else what is there to talk about....and here's the rub, this is what makes Poles grit their teeth - they destroyed almost all of our original patrimony why should we give back a part of their's.

The other thing which is more esoteric and something Poles understand innately, but others would not, it's that Hitler used the twisted ideology of Slavic inferiority as the rationale for lebensraum in this area, and this is why the destruction of our very rich and sophisticated culture in fact could be used to reinforce what Hitler believed, because so much has been lost...this is a deep source of pain and insecurity for Poland, this cultural identity...we know who we are, but what do we have to show for now after all the loss...and here is where the Berlinka helps as it also contains many Polish incunables that attest to this ancient heritage.

Zaluski Library - first public library in Europe

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