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Old November 23rd, 2012, 01:05 AM   #961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
yes, sadly it would be. there is the Venice Charter on conservation and of course private ownership obstacles.
In Dresden they haven't been in line with venice charter agreements... So never say never
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 01:28 AM   #962
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yes, sadly it would be. there is the Venice Charter on conservation and of course private ownership obstacles.
Can you explain this stupid Venice Charter again? And why Poland, a sovereign country, has to follow it?
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 04:18 AM   #963
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well Poland was a signatory. frankly Poland and many countries that suffered such extraordinary destruction should follow their own path. it's not like the UN will send forces to demolish what violates the rules under Venice Charter. The last Warsaw conservator followed this charter to the letter and the results were awkward at best and disastrous hybrid montrosities at worst. You have to be a very gifted designer to marry something old with something new. The charter explicitly states that maintaining a unity of style is not the objective of conservation, any valid accretions or additions must be respected. The former conservator Ewa Nekanda-Trepka, I believe erroneously considered some very hasty, disrespectful and makeshift additions and often deletions of details from buildings as valid. And they were not, unless you want Warsaw to always look like a crime scene. We have enough monuments to inhumanity. Many of these changes violated the The Second International Congress of Architects and Specialists of Historic Buildings and therefore they should not have been preserved in my opinion. The entire legal framework imposed on Warsaw by Bierut Decree was illegal as well since it was imposed by an illegitimate occupying regime - wherein the nationalization all properties stopped many private property owners from reclaiming their property and restoring them. Now they say this is a testament to history and the ugly versions should remain. Anyway, the new conservator Piotr Brabander is less dogmatic.

As much as I hate citing wikipedia (quite inaccurate sometimes), here's what it means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice_Charter
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Last edited by Urbanista1; November 23rd, 2012 at 04:24 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:30 AM   #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1
The entire legal framework imposed on Warsaw by Bierut Decree was illegal as well since it was imposed by an illegitimate occupying regime - wherein the nationalization all properties stopped many private property owners from reclaiming their property and restoring them.
Agreed with all what you said, except the above justification.

Your assertion that the Bierut decree was "illegal" because it was imposed by an illegitimate occupying regime, is irrelevant.
If we adopt that viewpoint, then the full legal framework regulating Poland's existence under 45 years of communist rule, should be annulled right away. Which is absolutely impossible for hundreds of reasons. To start with, the crucial land reform of 1944 (parcelling out big properties to the benefit of landless peasants/small farmers) should be called off. One could wonder how would Polish farmers react.

The Bierut decree should be rescinded indeed (as far as possible), because nearly 70 years after the war it has become a serious obstacle to Warsaw's development.
And that's it.

Quote:
Anyway, the new conservator Piotr Brabander is less dogmatic.
Let's hope so. His attitude during the "Emilia" affair does not augur well.

Quote:
As much as I hate citing wikipedia (quite inaccurate sometimes)
A funny thing with Wikipedia. It's like McDonald's: everybody hates it, but still everybody uses it.

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Old November 23rd, 2012, 03:01 PM   #965
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Sk..wiele! ..ckers

The destruction of a great view from the Lazienki Park

Belweder - one of the only original Palaces that survived WWII



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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:08 PM   #966
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Unfortunate about Belvedere. At least it's immortalized on the vodka
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:51 PM   #967
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Unfortunate about Belvedere. At least it's immortalized on the vodka
As with all urban parks inside major cities such things are inevitable. Look at Hyde Park in London, Central Park in NYC, Queens's Park in Toronto and I think the juxtaposition is quite exciting and instructive. It gives us a sense of the trajectory of time and change and context, much more meaningful In many cases. Look at the views from Pilsudski Square and even the Old Town, lots of skyscrapers. Rather live in a real city than a museum. Warsaw needs to be a real vibrant city again with streets teeming with people and activities.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:55 PM   #968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varsben View Post
Agreed with all what you said, except the above justification.

Your assertion that the Bierut decree was "illegal" because it was imposed by an illegitimate occupying regime, is irrelevant.
If we adopt that viewpoint, then the full legal framework regulating Poland's existence under 45 years of communist rule, should be annulled right away. Which is absolutely impossible for hundreds of reasons. To start with, the crucial land reform of 1944 (parcelling out big properties to the benefit of landless peasants/small farmers) should be called off. One could wonder how would Polish farmers react.

The Bierut decree should be rescinded indeed (as far as possible), because nearly 70 years after the war it has become a serious obstacle to Warsaw's development.
And that's it.



Let's hope so. His attitude during the "Emilia" affair does not augur well.


You are right Bierut Decree and Communism were not all bad, but the premise of occupation will always stick in my craw of course. Not suggesting we should annul everything, just explaining some of the challenges of applying Venice Charter in Warsaw. The Emilia affair is quite embarrassing, it needs to be resolved in a way that doesn't damage Warsaw's reputation. Very underhanded as it does appear to have been coordinated. There is a way to preserve the building while not infringing on development rights.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 08:34 AM   #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1
You are right Bierut Decree and Communism were not all bad, but the premise of occupation will always stick in my craw of course.
I'm not saying that the Bierut decree and communism were "good" or "bad". I'm just pointing out that it's impossible - for practical, not political/moral reasons - to just eliminate the legal framework left by a regime that ruled for 45 years, on grounds of its illegitimacy. It has nothing to do with whatever political/moral assessments. Anyway, once again: IMO the issue of land claims by former owners in Warsaw deprived of their properties under the Bierut decree, should be resolved in one way or another. Urgently.

About the Emilia pavilion, I disagree. I see no purpose in preserving it and I don't think it has any historical value. A skyscraper in its place would perfectly fit into Warsaw's cluster, in my opinion. And, as the situation is now, I see no possible option of preserving the pavilion and respecting the developer's rights at the same time, other than cancellation of the sales agreement and giving the developer/purchaser his money back. But somehow I don't expect the ministry to do that. Therefore, a case brought to court by the purchaser of the pavilion, is on the cards. Unless the decision categorising Emilia as a "historical object" is rescinded, of course (which IMO would be the best solution).

"Emilia" is an interesting issue about which we will certainly hear more. But still, IMO the Emilia pavilion has no prospects of surviving in the long perspective anyway, as it's extremely uneconomical (where it stands) and I see no-one possibly willing to invest in the maintenance of something that will never produce any reasonable profit.

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Old November 25th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varsben View Post
I'm not saying that the Bierut decree and communism were "good" or "bad". I'm just pointing out that it's impossible - for practical, not political/moral reasons - to just eliminate the legal framework left by a regime that ruled for 45 years, on grounds of its illegitimacy. It has nothing to do with whatever political/moral assessments. Anyway, once again: IMO the issue of land claims by former owners in Warsaw deprived of their properties under the Bierut decree, should be resolved in one way or another. Urgently.

About the Emilia pavilion, I disagree. I see no purpose in preserving it and I don't think it has any historical value. A skyscraper in its place would perfectly fit into Warsaw's cluster, in my opinion.

"Emilia" is an interesting issue about which we will certainly hear more. But still, IMO the Emilia pavilion has no prospects of surviving in the long perspective anyway, as it's extremely uneconomical (where it stands) and I see no-one possibly willing to invest in the maintenance of something that will never produce any reasonable profit.
.
Think you misunderstood me about Emilia. I should have elaborated. If it is determined that it is truly unique and valuable, which I would not belabour, it should be demolished and rebuilt somewhere else. This site is only suitable for a skyscraper as Warsaw's new downtown. A podium could be designed by the developer's architect that would be reminiscent of the Emilia, for old time's sake - if possible. Now if the City was a smart negotiator, of which I am starting to have doubts judging by what happened to MSN and this one, they could ask the developer to rebuild the structure elsewhere in exchange for a density bonus, quid pro quo, not gratis. How this was handled is embarrassing, transparent and amateurish for an alpha city of such prestige and that has accomplished awe-inspiring feats of human cooperation and physical construction and reconstruction. Hanna Grunkiewicz-Waltz, as president of Warsaw has been awe-inspiring in her achievements as well, but this was a faux-pas by someone else (like she tried covering up for her friend Ewa Nekanda-Trepka's judgement errors) that she is trying to finesse a little too much, instead of just saying, mistake made, mistake reversed, very quickly.

As for property rights, I believe HGW has put forward a proposal to President Komorowski, the sooner the better, she herself has acknowledged that the delay in rsolving this matter is now holding up development, peripheral areas are being bought up and built up while the centre still has some big holes.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 09:01 PM   #971
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1935

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Old December 2nd, 2012, 08:01 PM   #972
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Today marks the 50th year anniversary since the Church of the Birth of the Holy Mother of God (1683-1731 by August Vincent Locci) was moved 21 metres to its current location to allow for the creation of the W-Z highway that send traffic through a tunnel under the old town to the right bank of Warsaw. The old town and its medieval labyrinth of streets created traffic bottlenecks that slowed the movement of traffic in the city centre. The old location is still marked in the pavement of the street.











more info: http://warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1...a_rolkach.html
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 09:50 PM   #973
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Incredible.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 10:06 PM   #974
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Wow, How it is possible to do it.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 10:34 PM   #975
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On rails actually. I've seen it done on TV for smaller structures.
They did the same thing with the Lubomirski Palace to align it with the Saxon Axis.

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Old December 2nd, 2012, 11:30 PM   #976
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OMG
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Old December 4th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #977
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Incredible... a great solution.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 05:59 AM   #978
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Recently restored Saski Hotel (Offices) with new illumination on:

image hosted on flickr
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:36 AM   #979
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Looks quite nice and elegant.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:21 PM   #980
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nice
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