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Old March 7th, 2013, 06:43 AM   #1141
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Headline reads "Free Poland".



Some of the first residents returning to Warsaw.



http://warszawa.ap.gov.pl/droga_do_s.../poczatek.html
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Old March 7th, 2013, 06:45 AM   #1142
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Originally Posted by Dzwonsson View Post
Well, the British government hasn't paid even a buck to support the reconstruction of Dresden, but there is a British charity called the Dresden Trust, that [with support of some major figures including members of the royal family] has collected donations from the general public in Britain to pay for some of the recent reconstruction costs: http://dresdentrust.net/index.html
OMG, how disturbing, you mean no Germans in their wealthy advanced nation have even thought of helping us in this way, in a direct human personal way. They are either afraid of us on some level or feel that we somehow deserved what we got. I am shocked by this bit of information. Can't imagine why they hate us so much.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old March 7th, 2013, 11:59 PM   #1143
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Wish they would restore this fountain that existed on Bankowy Square since 1910 up until end of WWII and is now in front of Mirow Theatre when the road realignment changed the squares layout:

Pre-War:



Post-war



Now



Thanks Polex
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Old March 8th, 2013, 12:42 AM   #1144
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Wasn't that fountain moved?
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Old March 8th, 2013, 07:54 AM   #1145
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OMG, how disturbing, you mean no Germans in their wealthy advanced nation have even thought of helping us in this way, in a direct human personal way. They are either afraid of us on some level or feel that we somehow deserved what we got. I am shocked by this bit of information. Can't imagine why they hate us so much.
I haven't noticed

Besides, plenty of historical monuments in Poland are being reconstructed with the financial aid of various German foundations or the federal government.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 01:01 PM   #1146
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I haven't noticed

Besides, plenty of historical monuments in Poland are being reconstructed with the financial aid of various German foundations or the federal government.
Can you give us some examples? In Warsaw or just in former "East-Germany"?
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Old March 8th, 2013, 01:11 PM   #1147
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And this is why Germany should pay for the next reconstruction stage of Warsaw. Similar to what the British did for the reconstruction of Dresden.
LOL, please don't make any sort of comments about things you really have no clue about. The British government probably has not added a pence to the reconstruction efforts in Dresden.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #1148
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Besides, plenty of historical monuments in Poland are being reconstructed with the financial aid of various German foundations or the federal government.
That is very interesting, I was not aware of this. Can you give some examples (of the monuments restored as well as names of such foundations)? Many thanks.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 04:46 PM   #1149
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For example in Kraków the statue of general Kościuszko on Wawel Hill was reconstructed (after being destroyed during the war) by the donations of citizens of... Dresden.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 09:08 PM   #1150
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anyway, don't want to make a big deal. not sure how true any of this is, just saying I'm surprised Germans have not helped with reconstruction in Poland, if they have, would love someone to post those foundations and donors, they should be promoted and praised.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 09:09 PM   #1151
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OMG, how disturbing, you mean no Germans in their wealthy advanced nation have even thought of helping us in this way, in a direct human personal way. They are either afraid of us on some level or feel that we somehow deserved what we got. I am shocked by this bit of information. Can't imagine why they hate us so much.
I don't see how you come to that conclusion from the post you've quoted.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 11:12 PM   #1152
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anyway, don't want to make a big deal. not sure how true any of this is, just saying I'm surprised Germans have not helped with reconstruction in Poland, (...)
I think you were right to say that and it should be a 'big deal' for Poland to literally teach Germany respect ethnic Polish victims of the Nazi German occupation (estimated at 2.77m people) and the material losses (architectural, cultural - Nazi plunder) inflicted on Poland. Just exactly as the Jews do. A simple example would be a comparison of the number of monuments in Berlin commemorating the Holocaust vs. those related to Polish victims (guess what, there is none!).

I wasn't a great fan of late President Kaczyński, but I think he did a good job in 2004 as the Mayor of Warsaw at the time. He got pissed off about some opinions by Erika Steinbach and the circles of so-called 'The Expelled' (Wypędzeni) re the idea of potential compensation claims against Poland. In return he presented Germans with a bill for their planned destruction of Warsaw in Oct 1944 - Jan 1945 on foot of an official report, according to which the losses in Warsaw were estimated at 54bn USD (current value).
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Old March 9th, 2013, 12:06 AM   #1153
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I think you were right to say that and it should be a 'big deal' for Poland to literally teach Germany respect ethnic Polish victims of the Nazi German occupation (estimated at 2.77m people) and the material losses (architectural, cultural - Nazi plunder) inflicted on Poland. Just exactly as the Jews do. A simple example would be a comparison of the number of monuments in Berlin commemorating the Holocaust vs. those related to Polish victims (guess what, there is none!).

I wasn't a great fan of late President Kaczyński, but I think he did a good job in 2004 as the Mayor of Warsaw at the time. He got pissed off about some opinions by Erika Steinbach and the circles of so-called 'The Expelled' (Wypędzeni) re the idea of potential compensation claims against Poland. In return he presented Germans with a bill for their planned destruction of Warsaw in Oct 1944 - Jan 1945 on foot of an official report, according to which the losses in Warsaw were estimated at 54bn USD (current value).
Jewish lobby groups are the most powerful in the world. They get things done for their own people and I am sure politically affiliated Jews living in western nations like the USA put pressure on Germany to erect these memorials. Poland could learn from that but I don't think there are any Poles active in German politics. In the USA and Canada, Poles are a bit more organized.
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Old March 9th, 2013, 01:13 AM   #1154
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It's quite clear that most of you have probably never set foot in Germany.
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Old March 9th, 2013, 04:45 AM   #1155
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Perhaps we should change the subject. Are there any plans to remove that horrid parking lot in front of the Great Theatre?
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Old March 9th, 2013, 08:38 AM   #1156
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Jewish lobby groups are the most powerful in the world. They get things done for their own people and I am sure politically affiliated Jews living in western nations like the USA put pressure on Germany to erect these memorials. Poland could learn from that but I don't think there are any Poles active in German politics. In the USA and Canada, Poles are a bit more organized.
no Poles just whine and complain and do nothing, they won't even sign petitions. Couldn't get 5,000 Poles to sign a petition condemning a BBC writer who was wrongly trashing Poles - what does that say about us? Jews act, Poles whine, that's why there is no monument in Berlin to the Polish Holocaust. Next to Auschwitz, Warsaw is the site of the greatest wartime atrocities.

anyway, I think I got people off-track with my reaction to British support for Dresden reconstruction while I know of no such initiative by Germans for Warsaw, a far worse atrocity. that's the point.

Unless someone has lists of German or other organizations engaged in Warsaw reconstruction let's please stop this train of discussion and get back to pictures. Kampflamm maybe you could tell us something we don't know, you appear to be implying it. This would be helpful, because most of us have not set foot in Germany.
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Old March 9th, 2013, 08:45 AM   #1157
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War time



Now - street torn up for subway construction


Thanks Polex
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Old March 9th, 2013, 10:19 AM   #1158
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Perhaps we should change the subject. Are there any plans to remove that horrid parking lot in front of the Great Theatre?
Plans - yes, they are. Chances for doing the job: poor.

The point is that the underground car park is to be build. However, there are remnansts of Marywil underneath, so it requires archeological research. And it will cost a lot. Since Warsaw budget is being severely cut - I am not optimist about the Theatre Sq
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Old March 9th, 2013, 01:03 PM   #1159
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Unless someone has lists of German or other organizations engaged in Warsaw reconstruction let's please stop this train of discussion and get back to pictures. Kampflamm maybe you could tell us something we don't know, you appear to be implying it. This would be helpful, because most of us have not set foot in Germany.
I think it is rather ridiculous to accuse Germans of all people of somehow not owning up to our past. FFS, even today's policies are largely influenced by WW2; whenever we talk about Europe over here in Germany for example, someone will inevitably bring up the war and our duty to show solidarity with the rest of Europe because of it. Why do you think Germany was one of Poland's most ardent supporters during EU accession talks?

I am deeply sorry for what was done to Poland during WW2, however to rant against Germans because of one British fund for Dresden (even though the country has never acknowledged that some of the bombing raids towards the end of the war [like Dresden] were nothing but war atrocities since they sought to inflict civilian casualties for no particular purpose) is a bit odd.
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Old March 9th, 2013, 07:08 PM   #1160
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It's quite clear that most of you have probably never set foot in Germany.
I have, not only once. And I also met some nice German people. However, I'd say the issue here is not so much about individuals from both countries, but the official policies (in particular German historical policy) driven by ruling elites.

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no Poles just whine and complain and do nothing, they won't even sign petitions. Couldn't get 5,000 Poles to sign a petition condemning a BBC writer who was wrongly trashing Poles - what does that say about us? Jews act, Poles whine, that's why there is no monument in Berlin to the Polish Holocaust.
Well, there is a merit in saying that Poles like to complain. However, I don't think that anti-defamation actions should be based mainly on a spontaneous public reaction of Poles, but rather on the assertive representation by Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs and our embassies in foreign states, plus the support of NGOs (like in case of Jews the Anti-Defamation League).

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Why do you think Germany was one of Poland's most ardent supporters during EU accession talks?
Because it was in the economic & political interest of Germany, who wanted to gain free access to a fairly big market with inexpensive labour force, and eventually to make Poland a vassal state with the economy complementary (not competitive) to the German one.
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