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Old March 9th, 2013, 10:49 PM   #1161
Urbanista1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
I think it is rather ridiculous to accuse Germans of all people of somehow not owning up to our past. FFS, even today's policies are largely influenced by WW2; whenever we talk about Europe over here in Germany for example, someone will inevitably bring up the war and our duty to show solidarity with the rest of Europe because of it. Why do you think Germany was one of Poland's most ardent supporters during EU accession talks?

I am deeply sorry for what was done to Poland during WW2, however to rant against Germans because of one British fund for Dresden (even though the country has never acknowledged that some of the bombing raids towards the end of the war [like Dresden] were nothing but war atrocities since they sought to inflict civilian casualties for no particular purpose) is a bit odd.
well I wasn'rt exactly ranting, but reacting, my apologies, the more we know about the real people and attitudes on either sides of the Oder/Odra the better. We shouldn't be afraid to be open without being nasty and hateful. I have stated before bombing civilians and cultural artifacts should be condemned wherever it happens. It's a shame so much was lost in Germany too.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old March 10th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #1162
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Ok we need to start talking about the RECONSTRUCTION OF WARSAW, and not arguing over what the british did about dresden and what germany should do. I understand that what the germans did during the second world war was horrible, but the past is the past. This is a forum about Warsaw regaining what it had lost in the past not what others regained for it. Seriously new subject









Comment on stuff like this, don't waste a good forum with arguments on politics, unless its a political forum.

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Old March 10th, 2013, 09:35 AM   #1163
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Old March 10th, 2013, 09:45 AM   #1164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm
I think it is rather ridiculous to accuse Germans of all people of somehow not owning up to our past. FFS, even today's policies are largely influenced by WW2; whenever we talk about Europe over here in Germany for example, someone will inevitably bring up the war and our duty to show solidarity with the rest of Europe because of it. Why do you think Germany was one of Poland's most ardent supporters during EU accession talks?
The magnitude of what Germans did to Warsaw from 1939 to 1945 is so overwhelming, that it is and will - sadly - forever remain a crucial part of the city's identity. There's nothing anyone can do to eliminate it. So perhaps you should learn to accept it, or otherwise just ignore Warsaw threads if it irritates you.

Quote:
I am deeply sorry for what was done to Poland during WW2, however to rant against Germans because of one British fund for Dresden (even though the country has never acknowledged that some of the bombing raids towards the end of the war [like Dresden] were nothing but war atrocities since they sought to inflict civilian casualties for no particular purpose) is a bit odd.
I find quite hyprocritical the comments (increasingly frequent) by some Germans (and their ardent supporters of other nationalities) expressing irritation with any mentioning of Germany's unique guilt in relation to a place like Warsaw, when at the same time on German and other forums I keep reading over & over repetitive comments about how cruel, unnecessary and unjustified were the Allied air raids on German cities.

Let me quote Marshal Arthur Harris:

Quote:
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
In this thread, the specific issue discussed - that you called a "rant against Germans" - was German possible compensation for Warsaw's losses or participation in reconstructing landmarks destroyed by Germans in Warsaw in the period from the fall of the Warsaw Uprising (2nd Oct 1944) to the Germans' final retreat from the city (17th Jan 1945).

Apparently you know little about this period, which was a very special one. I think it's hard to find in modern world history - even less so as regards national capital cities - another case of a city intentionally destroyed (over this period Warsaw lost about 30% of its material assets) without any reasonable military or political purpose, only for the sake of "revenge" for having dared to oppose the aggressor. The action of looting and razing was carried out against a city that had officially surrendered and posed no threat at all to the occupying German forces.

The final destruction of Warsaw in that period was a carefully planned action, conceived by the top state leadership of Germany as a matter of policy. In blatant contravention of the agreement on the cessation of hostilities in Warsaw signed between the leadership of the Warsaw Uprising and the German side on 2nd October 1944, that i.a. stated that the German side would "protect" Warsaw's assets, thus explicitly forbidding any further destruction (Article I/10).

Therefore, the act of Warsaw's final destruction was not only barbaric, it was also a breaking of an official commitment of the German State. Which means, that in terms of international law Warsaw may have the formal grounds for claiming compensation from Germany. Whether such claim would be reasonable and advisable now, nearly 70 years after the war, is another question. What I'm saying now is, I find unacceptable your irritation at someone only bringing this issue into the spotlight.

@Kampflamm:

Like other Varsovians, I would be so happy to wake up some day and find out that Warsaw's horrific wartime tragedy was only a bad dream. But it was real, its consequences run very deep to this day. I cannot change that, neither you can, nor anyone else. We must all somehow learn to live with it and be as empathic towards each other, as possible.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 09:59 AM   #1165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotPocketPieLord View Post
Ok we need to start talking about the RECONSTRUCTION OF WARSAW, and not arguing over what the british did about dresden and what germany should do. I understand that what the germans did during the second world war was horrible, but the past is the past. This is a forum about Warsaw regaining what it had lost in the past not what others regained for it. Seriously new subject









Comment on stuff like this, don't waste a good forum with arguments on politics, unless its a political forum.


I am learning a lot about Warsaw architecture on this forum.

It looks like many of residential and civic the buildings of the pre-war city were built during the 19th century: grand, stately, imposing, with often elaborate additions. As my Grandfather used to say: "Built to last". Is that correct?
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Old March 10th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #1166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varsben View Post
Therefore, the act of Warsaw's final destruction was not only barbaric, it was also a breaking of an official commitment of the German State. Which means, that in terms of international law Warsaw may have the formal grounds for claiming compensation from Germany.
Nobody denies that the act of Warsaw's final destruction was war crime to the bone. Still, the Warsaw may have not the formal grounds. The whole issue regarding reparations was closed finally in "4+2 agreement" and it is history. By the way, as well as all claims of lost property of German and FCD citizens, who fled or were forcibly resettled in the last period of the war, or soon afterwards.

Not to mention, that spoiling good Polish-German relations in order to shout for money we ourselves have refused earlier and have no chances to receive now is clueless. Besides, we reveive millions of euros from EU funds as a part of the Common policy: it's much better than jerking off with historic issues, which are bygones, and let them stay that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotPocketPieLord View Post
St. Alexander's church, modelled after the Panteon.

Bombed in 1944, direct hit of an air bomb. Rebuilt to 1952 in original form, now looks like that:


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Originally Posted by HotPocketPieLord View Post
Royal Castle, destructed partially in 1939, robbed in 1940 (during organised action of dismantling lots of interial elements were nicked by Polish art historians and preserved), burned during the Uprising and finally blown up. The building ceased to exist, but its interiors surivived. Even the looting paid off, because all the stuff was packed, marked and it was quite easy to recover it from occupied Germany after the war The first plans of reconstruction were made in 1949-50, the 1954 architectural contest was won by prof. Jan Bogusławski. The restitution of the Castle was delayed in 1960's poor years of so-called Small Stabilisation. Reconstruction took place from 1971 to 1988.

That's how it looks like now:


And there is another one in Chicago


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Originally Posted by HotPocketPieLord View Post
Great Synagogue, the biggest synagogue in pre-war Warsaw, the centre for reformed Jews, who assimilated Polish culture (even the architecture of the synagogue imitated Congress Poland's 1815-30 classicism). Blown up personally by Jurgen Stroop as the last episode of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, 1943. After many deliberations, the skyscraper was built more-or-less-on-the-spot of the synagogue



Quote:
Originally Posted by HotPocketPieLord View Post
Insurance Company "Rossya", built 1899-1902. Burned nearly to the ground in 1944. After the war, the remaining walls were used to erect the new PKO building in 1947-50. Commonly know among Warsaw citizens as Toilet Bowls' House. Modernised in 1998. Pretty, ain't it?


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Old March 10th, 2013, 10:41 PM   #1167
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You know what I find annoying, is this:
In Poland, a ‘breakthrough’ on Holocaust compensation
Warsaw, for first time, said willing to seriously discuss restitution


From a few days ago. Read it.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/breakth...-compensation/


So Poland is getting ready to get f*cked?
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Old March 11th, 2013, 12:51 AM   #1168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyR View Post
I am learning a lot about Warsaw architecture on this forum.

It looks like many of residential and civic the buildings of the pre-war city were built during the 19th century: grand, stately, imposing, with often elaborate additions. As my Grandfather used to say: "Built to last". Is that correct?
Well, it's pretty typical for 19th century everywhere. However, most of the buildings established 1830-1914 in Warsaw were private residential buildings and rent-houses (apartment houses built in order to earn money from rent). There are hardly any large government, municipal buildings, which can be found in large numbers in Paris, Budapest, Bucarest, Petersburg or Vienna. And there is not much spectacular examples of city planning - just plain and simple quarters of rent-houses (i.e. there had been, because most of them were lost during the war). Not much of boulevards, avenues and landmarks such as Hungarian Parliament or Opera Garnier.

If one wants to see large, monumental urbanism or architecture in Warsaw, one has to choose three other periods: 1815-30 (Congress Poland's classicism) and 1918-39 (II Republic "half-modernism"), and 1945-65 (city reconstruction and creation of the new socialist Warsaw). Well, four periods. The contemporary buildings can be also quite impressive
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Old March 11th, 2013, 01:00 AM   #1169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
You know what I find annoying, is this:
In Poland, a ‘breakthrough’ on Holocaust compensation
Warsaw, for first time, said willing to seriously discuss restitution


From a few days ago. Read it.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/breakth...-compensation/


So Poland is getting ready to get f*cked?
Israel as country (which did not exist in 1939, 1943 or 1945) can not claim private pre-war properties in Warsaw. Yes properties that still exist should be returned to the rightful individual owners, but for the properties that no longer exist, I would send the demands to the ones responsible for the destruction of the city in the years 1939-1945.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 01:39 AM   #1170
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Israel as country (which did not exist in 1939, 1943 or 1945) can not claim private pre-war properties in Warsaw. Yes properties that still exist should be returned to the rightful individual owners, but for the properties that no longer exist, I would send the demands to the ones responsible for the destruction of the city in the years 1939-1945.
To be clear, Polish Catholics should also be able to claim properties lost (ex. from Communists). Somehow, I just hear about Jewish "organizations".
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Old March 11th, 2013, 08:10 AM   #1171
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Well, it's pretty typical for 19th century everywhere. However, most of the buildings established 1830-1914 in Warsaw were private residential buildings and rent-houses (apartment houses built in order to earn money from rent). There are hardly any large government, municipal buildings, which can be found in large numbers in Paris, Budapest, Bucarest, Petersburg or Vienna. And there is not much spectacular examples of city planning - just plain and simple quarters of rent-houses (i.e. there had been, because most of them were lost during the war). Not much of boulevards, avenues and landmarks such as Hungarian Parliament or Opera Garnier.

If one wants to see large, monumental urbanism or architecture in Warsaw, one has to choose three other periods: 1815-30 (Congress Poland's classicism) and 1918-39 (II Republic "half-modernism"), and 1945-65 (city reconstruction and creation of the new socialist Warsaw). Well, four periods. The contemporary buildings can be also quite impressive
Thanks for the information. Interesting and helpful.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 05:29 PM   #1172
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Hey guys, historical/political debates are fine as long as they are in taste, watch it
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Old March 13th, 2013, 09:16 PM   #1173
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Thanks Awik
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old March 15th, 2013, 07:46 PM   #1174
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Before



Today



Before



Today


Thanks Polex
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Old March 16th, 2013, 07:59 AM   #1175
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st. alexanders

i do like the present appearance of st. alexander church....but it seems to me that it kinda gets lost in a rather large square....anybody else feel perhaps the previous structure would be better suited than the present one?....btw....nice that this forum is in english....i'd hate to inflict my poor polish on such an interesting site!
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Old March 16th, 2013, 06:48 PM   #1176
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i do like the present appearance of st. alexander church....but it seems to me that it kinda gets lost in a rather large square....anybody else feel perhaps the previous structure would be better suited than the present one?
From urbanist's point of view the previous (Dziekonski's) bigger version was probably better. But from architectural point of view I much prefer today's, "original" Aigner's version.

Besides, Pantheon-like churches in Warsaw are very rare, in fact, this is the only one, and Aigner built two IIRC. Dziekonski, on the other hand, was very prolific architect. I can think of at least four structures in Warsaw (from memory), probably there were much more. Not to mention that (I'm exaggerating of course) every village in Masovia has its own church by Dziekonski

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i'd hate to inflict my poor polish on such an interesting site!
Don't worry, we're very tolerant
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Old March 16th, 2013, 10:06 PM   #1177
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Love this picture of Zlota Street (Gold Street), it represents such a composite of Warsaw's urban history. Pre-war kamienice on the right, post-war commie blocks with deeper setbacks (not respecting established built-to line) allowing more light in for the toiling proletarians, Stalin's out-of-scale wedding cake celebrating the gunpoint marriage between occupied Poland and Soviet Russia and Liebeskind's Zlota 44 seemingly rising above it all, a symbol of the future-oriented new Warsaw.

image hosted on flickr


thanks morris71
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Old March 16th, 2013, 10:11 PM   #1178
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Love this picture of Zlota Street (Gold Street), it represents such a composite of Warsaw's urban history. Pre-war kamienice on the right, post-war commie blocks with deeper setbacks (not respecting established built-to line) allowing more light in for the toiling proletarians, Stalin's out-of-scale wedding cake celebrating the gunpoint marriage between occupied Poland and Soviet Russia and Liebeskind's Zlota 44 seemingly rising above it all, a symbol of the future-oriented new Warsaw.
LOL, nice choice of words.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #1179
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thanks Marbur66 and for you Varsavophiles the new Heritage Interpretation Centre in the old town basements is opened for business. It documents the history and reconstruction of the old town:









thanks Lumina
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Old March 16th, 2013, 11:24 PM   #1180
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Nice-looking place.
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