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Old January 12th, 2014, 02:54 PM   #1441
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little immoral Jewish troll
Że niby Mruczek...?

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Old January 12th, 2014, 06:03 PM   #1442
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This seeming destruction of a historic building that partly survived the war is actually a new lease on life and additional floors:



will be this

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Old January 12th, 2014, 06:09 PM   #1443
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It's hard not to get emotional about Warsaw, especially a topic like its reconstruction which necessitated a solution to commemorating the enormity of the tragedy that unfolded there. Out of respect to those who perished and those who bravely returned to a once again occupied Poland post war, I ask you to please refrain from any hostile or insensitive comments. Let's try to move forward constructively. Thanks
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Old January 12th, 2014, 08:25 PM   #1444
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Mruczek to jest zydem? Nie dziwi mnie. Stara maruda.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 08:37 PM   #1445
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watpie, moze ersatz, ale maruda tak...unfortunately his comment set off some people, families of survivors et al. mruczek prides himself on being iconoclastic, not sure what it's supposed to achieve really, comic relief hardly...anyway we move on.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 08:42 PM   #1446
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Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
This seeming destruction of a historic building that partly survived the war is actually a new lease on life and additional floors:

(...)

Pity they will not reconstruct the original facade from ca. 1890. It wasn't particularly valuable, but still it was better than plain wall.

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Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
It's hard not to get emotional about Warsaw, especially a topic like its reconstruction which necessitated a solution to commemorating the enormity of the tragedy that unfolded there. Out of respect to those who perished and those who bravely returned to a once again occupied Poland post war, I ask you to please refrain from any hostile or insensitive comments.
Out of respect to those who perished and those who bravely returned all kitchy monuments by third-rate architects should be harshly criticised. I mean those two monuments in Wola district (which by the way is probably the worst managed district in the city, especially regarding cultural and architectural legacy - but that's another story). The rest of monuments, which you've posted are IMHO acceptable, good or very good.

Worth to mention than in Warsaw there is already very good and very moving City System of Information regarding sites of martyrology, so called Tchorek's Plaques. This system should be expanded if necessary:


Here is article, unfortunately only in Polish:
http://warszawa.wikia.com/wiki/Tabli...5tkowe_Tchorka
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Old January 12th, 2014, 08:47 PM   #1447
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Czerniakowska Street

Pre-war - it was a nice street































Post war - 1973 back to nature - they forgot to tell the streetcars that there was no city here anymore, but they kept running for a while yet











Today? I know that there are a lot of modern luxury apartments in this area, its proximity to the Lazienki Park Royal Baths makes it desirable. Any pics, please post, I haven't been there yet.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 08:58 PM   #1448
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thanks for clarifying Mruczek. The monument in Wola is not suitable, I agree. A Tchorek plaque would not be suitable in scale, something like the one in the Wolski Cemetary (Poleglym Pomordowanym) yes. But you have to understand, and you probably know better, after the war this massacre did not get all the attention it deserved despite eyewitness accounts by such people as the mother of Mcislaw Lurie et al.

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Pity they will not reconstruct the original facade from ca. 1890. It wasn't particularly valuable, but still it was better than plain wall.
any pictures from 1890 from your archives, I can't find anything.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 09:44 PM   #1449
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thanks for clarifying Mruczek. The monument in Wola is not suitable, I agree. A Tchorek plaque would not be suitable in scale, something like the one in the Wolski Cemetary (Poleglym Pomordowanym) yes. But you have to understand, and you probably know better, after the war this massacre did not get all the attention it deserved despite eyewitness accounts by such people as the mother of Mcislaw Lurie et al.
Not exactly. For political reasons the fighters from Warsaw Uprising weren't given the credit they deserved (no doubt, since the Uprising was in fact against Soviets), and here there were large falsifications - you're right about it. That's why, for example, the Monument of the Warsaw Uprising was built in 1989 in the first place (quite late, ain't it?). But the sole fact that there were brutal pacifications (to the degree od genocide) of Wola, Ochota, Starówka was never hidden. Even during Stalinist times. On the contrary, it was repeated and repeated.

I'd even say that civil victims of the Uprising were given more credit then (than now). It is the soldiers, who are now in the centre of attention. Sad

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any pictures from 1890 from your archives, I can't find anything.
Neither do I, but I am not the investor

There are some pics from general views of Poznańska St. (unfortunately it was quite narrow, so they're taken from annoying angle). And also there are pics of the former Soviet Embassy (Poznańska 15), whereas the building you've posted is Poznańska 13 and it's also visible on the photos.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:09 PM   #1450
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I agree, the soldiers are getting more attention, but it is really the civilians who suffered the brunt of Hitler's inhumane reprisals for the uprising, while the AK ran off into the sewers to fight another day. It is high time civilians got recognition. They were indeed brave and morally right (sadly our allies subscribed to a different moral code, realpolitik), but I still believe the Uprising was launched at the wrong time, "Monter" (Antoni Chrusciel) should have listened and trusted the instincts of Osmecki, Bokszczanin and Pluta-Czachowski, but especially Bokszczanin who was a brilliant tactician and knew exactly how it was going to unfold and some of this devastation may have been avoided, who knows.

btw, here is an interesting group I have come across who is trying to rectify some of these historic injustices:http://www.mojewojennedziecinstwo.pl/

I wouldn't say the Uprising was solely anti-Soviet, Poles had been terrified and exhausted by years of brutal occupation by the Nazis, so something had to give as our so-called Allies did nothing to directly assist. But it was indeed an attempt to garner international attention to the Uprising and show how Poles fought to regain their nation and therefore add legitimacy to the Polish government in exile's attempt to re-establish a free Poland after the war, contrary to Stalin's aim to install a communist government headed by the so-called Lublin Poles. For this reason Stalin ordered the Soviet army to do nothing to assist AK civilians during the barbaric, murderous rampage that too place on the left bank of Warsaw.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 07:16 AM   #1451
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^
The first Pre-war skyscraper in Warsaw - Prudential -- Art Deco Style - At the time of it's contruction it was the highest skyscraper in Europe and the tallest in Warsaw.
Construction started 1931
Completed 1934

Main data:
Height: 66 m
Number of floors: 18
Architect: Marcin Weinfeld
Location: Pl. Powstańców Warszawy (Warsaw Insurgents Square) 9 - Ulica Świętokrzyska 27
Current: Under reconstruction
Main Usage - Convertion to Hotel

Wiki -
Quote:
In 1936 a large antenna was constructed on the roof by professor Janusz Groszkowski, who started the first television broadcasts in Europe from that facility. The Prudential building soon became a symbol of modern Warsaw and was featured in numerous contemporary films and advertisements.



Source Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudential,_Warsaw

Quote:
28 August 1944, building hit by 2-ton mortar shell from a Karl-Gerät -
Quote:
It had a very strong construction of welded steel beams. The famous picture shows the building hit by a 2-ton shell from the heaviest mortar ever used by Germans during the Warsaw Uprising.
source: http://www.polishforums.com/poland-h...ruction-32836/



^ Shows Prudential under reconstruction in May 2012 to date restoration not completed?

Source: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/72282332

Various sources including other forums... http://www.polishforums.com/poland-h...ruction-32836/

Wiki needs updating as this one (Prudential) clearly shows there is little information contained there and wouldn't it be also great to see all the updates of all the restoration occurring in Poland. I'm no expert in doing this but it appears there are many here who may be able to undertake the task as it would also be beneficial to have all the information updated there for all to see. Many people do not have access to this site as it requires membership and this isn't a requirement of wiki or the risk of being banned. However links can be provided as to where the information originated from and thus this would also be beneficial to SSC.

Wiki is a great source of information if the information is correct and updated by someone who is accurate in their findings of the restoration process or other historical data relating to Poland, its people and important historical information which at times is not made prevalent of what importance Polance actually played in world events. The Polish people deserve this and history is an important part of life which hopefully something like what the Poles suffered will never happen again there or anywhere else. It should never be just put away and forgotten about, every monument that is erected is there for a reason, it is there for those who lost their lives. It may not be important to some because they may not have been directly affected by it all but to those who are or are surviving victims and to their families, it is not good mocking them no matter what the structure may look like the intent was there to honour the fallen.

If all these monuments were approved structures (it would be the local council involved and the govt) that is what counts and if people didn't object to them being erected then it is pointless talking about it all once the horse has bolted as objections required to be made at the time. The idea of monuments is to commemorate the fallen, the injured and the survivors whether it be by accident or in war. It is for those who survive who have to listen or read the constant and unnessessary insults because those who have lost their lives and are being remembered and commemorated are no longer here to either see or read the insults or reply. Every respect requires to be afforded to the families of the victims and mindless comments are totally unnessary IMHO.

The Poles fought with valiant fervour to the end but were outnumbered (one thing also they did not do is surrender to the Nazi's they went also went underground and shows how much work was undertaken as plans relating to the rescontruction started during WW2 and not just afterwards) and destruction of it's peoples, it's cities and it's architecture could have been avoided and wasn't! They assisted other countries in battle including the Battle of Britain and yet not assisted as they should have been and thus it becomes history how the people were tortured and suffered under the Nazi's and Soviet Union takeover. For anyone who is here to write about it, or provide opinion, it should be done with the utmost of respect and anything which hasn't been brought out in the open known requires to be updated/corrected if known to give a greater scope and credit to the Polish people where it is due. The Poles have not been given enough credit for what they did overtime (including WW1 and WW2) and are generally the brunt of silly jokes rather than looking at the whole historical picture where hardly any of this wildly know or practiced in history lessons in other parts of the world. This information gathering and historical events need to be made apparent publicly and because wiki is out there this is probably the better source for events like this to be updated. I didn't know SSC existed until 2009.

Those who have worked tirelessly and brought the historical data to the fore it is a pleasure to read about or those who have personal experience and know what happened, these are the eyewitnesses to the account and families of victims who were also enslaved to hard labor and survived to tell their stories.

The Polish nation has been around since 966. However from 1795 to 1918 Poland did not exist as an independent state, a total of 123 years. In 1795, Poland's territory was completely partitioned among the Kingdom of Prussia, the Russian Empire, and Austria. Poland regained its independence as the Second Polish Republic in 1918 after World War I but lost it in WW 2 through occupation by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

Quote:
Poland lost over 3 million Polish in WW2 a very large account which is not often mentioned or highlighted as much. An excerpt "historians who have written on the subject of the Holocaust have chosen to interpret the tragedy in exclusivistic terms--namely, as the most tragic period in the history of the Jewish Diaspora. To them, the Holocaust was unique to the Jews, and they therefore have had little or nothing to say about the nine million Gentiles, including three million Poles, who also perished in the greatest tragedy the world has ever known. Little wonder that many people who experienced these events share the feeling of Nobel Laureate Czeslaw Milosz, who anxious when the meaning of the word Holocaust undergoes gradual modifications, so that the word begins to belong to the history of the Jews exclusively, as if among the victims there were not also millions of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, and prisoners of other nationalities. -- Richard C. Lukas, preface to The Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles under German Occupation 1939-1944" . They also seem to focus on the French Resistance...yet the Polish one was far better and is not known to many out there including myself...what an eye opener when you continue to read about it (a reviewer points out the following after reading the book).
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/103009764

Quote:
Lucas’ main goal is to contrast the Polish gentile experience to the Polish Jewish one. The Polish experience was different than the Jewish one, in that Polish Jews were marked for immediate and total extermination while Poles were slaughtered a bit differently. Both were killed in large numbers.
What contrasted the Polish gentile experience was that the German genocide of Poles focused on the destruction of the intelligentsia and cultural genocide, while using the others as slaves to wait on those Germans who were resettled into what Hitler viewed as rightfully belonging to Germany (east of the Molotov Ribbentrop line). The total, or near-total, extermination of the Poles was to await the end of the war.
An interesting part of the book deals with a different kind of Holocaust, the destruction of families. Polish children who would be Germanized, because of their blond hair and blue eyes, represented about 3% of the Polish population of the Reich-annexed regions and were ripped from their families to be placed in German foster homes and orphanages. According to German crazy ideology, these were not Poles; they were Germans who had become Polonized, and would now be re-Germanized.

The book pays scant attention to the Warsaw Uprising, although to be fair, the intent is not to provide a blow-by-blow account of those tragic 63 days. I did find some interesting material herein about weapons stockpiles held by the Home Army.

What was fascinating to me was Luccas' description of the underground state. Absolutely extraordinary. All of those thousands and thousands of patriotic Poles running schools, universities, a justice system, cultural and journalism activities under the very noses of the Gestapo in an attempt to keep their country, history and culture alive. Recall that the Germans were trying to do away completely with Polish culture during their occupation; Poles were not considered worthy of education past elementary school and they could not speak their own language (under penalty of prison or death). I came away with an intense appreciation for the tenacity and courage of a peoples who said “Hell no.” It is no accident that the Polish national anthem begins with "Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła" (Poland is not yet lost). This is a country that takes its spirit to heart. Moreover, to think of the unity in preserving this vast underground state when at any minute there could have been a wholesale slaughter of its thousands of citizens is an extraordinary feat and one that has not been seen in any country. Much is made of the French underground and resistance, but it must be remembered that the French were divided. Their Vichy government were Nazi collaborators. Whereas the Poles refused to engage in any Quisling activity, although as Lucas points out Germans unsuccessfully approached Prince Janusz Radziwill, and others, as prospective Quislings. BTW, I did not know the meaning of the word quisling before reading this book. So I improved my vocabulary!
There were people like Irena Sendler (née Krzyżanowska) who is just one amongst so many others (many not known or not recorded if known as they lost their lives). Nominated for the Nobel Peace price in 2007 but lost to Al Gore...what a joke that was...a person who saved so many lives in WW2 and who was tortured and beaten herself not to receive this accolade is beyond words. She died in 2008 age 98, what a great honour this would have been before her passing.

Due to it geographical position between the fighting powers, it meant that much fighting and human and material losses occurred on the Polish lands between 1914 and 1918. It has gone through two world wars (fought in Medievil times) and to have gone through so much devastation and takeover it's still a wonder the country, its culture and it's people still exist...something the Nazi's wanted to destroy in 1939 including the Soviet Union (under communism) but the country could not be destroyed completely even though the main aim was to do so. Poland regained its independence as the Second Polish Republic in 1918 after World War I.

After all this, Poland rose again out of communist rule in 1989 (thanks to Pope John Paull II who is also instrumental in ending communism there by strategically not politicising it but rather smartly and methodically informing the people this could be achieved. He always held his beloved country close to his heart once elected Pope and would never give up on her and the people......what a great man he was and such a great loss to the whole world on his passing in 2005). His first trip to Poland in 1979 gave the people much hope which uplifted the nation's spirit and started the formation of the Solidarity movement in 1980 by Lech Walesa.

Freedom over oppression is something the Poles have fought to preserve and finally won to live as free men, women and children and to be able to rebuild most of it's beautiful treasures, its architecture after so much destruction took place. May the Polish flag fly high with it's crowned coat of arms the White Eagle (Orzel Biały) watching over its country and people. Sto lat many times over to a beautiful country, its people and all those involved in restoring it to its previous magnificent grandeur.

Last edited by unknownpleasures; January 14th, 2014 at 04:04 PM. Reason: typos and grammar
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Old January 13th, 2014, 07:25 AM   #1452
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What's the hold-up with the old Prudential, anyway? It seems like it has been under re-construction forever now...
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Old January 13th, 2014, 07:41 AM   #1453
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the building permit was contested, then nearby subway construction hampered site access I believe. I have heard that the owners the Likus family may have had some financial difficulties, it is set to resume if it hasn't already unless someone else has more accurate info.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 08:03 AM   #1454
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the building permit was contested, then nearby subway construction hampered site access I believe. I have heard that the owners the Likus family may have had some financial difficulties, it is set to resume if it hasn't already unless someone else has more accurate info.
How do you know all this...seems like you are a wealth of information...any possibility you can update wiki?
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Old January 13th, 2014, 05:55 PM   #1455
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the problem is having the time and to do the meticulous research, citations etc.

btw, you mentioned Irena Sendler, now there's a hero, I would love to see a monument to her in Warsaw, of a suitable scale that is. There are hundreds of thousands of unsung heroes in occupied Poland who risked their lives trying to save Polish Jews and others, but most did not succeed and they and their family paid with their lives along with those intended to save, so no one knows who they were anymore and what they tried to do. There are plans to build a monument to such unsung heroes on Grzybowska Square.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:21 AM   #1456
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the problem is having the time and to do the meticulous research, citations etc.

btw, you mentioned Irena Sendler, now there's a hero, I would love to see a monument to her in Warsaw, of a suitable scale that is. There are hundreds of thousands of unsung heroes in occupied Poland who risked their lives trying to save Polish Jews and others, but most did not succeed and they and their family paid with their lives along with those intended to save, so no one knows who they were anymore and what they tried to do. There are plans to build a monument to such unsung heroes on Grzybowska Square.
I'm sure you can do it...the citations etc. wiki encourage people to edit information...if you know the Lukis family are the current owners etc well that's easy to include where you got the info from, it could have even been indicated in an article (currently there are no citations from memory so anything updated would help - it's referred to as a "stub").....the delays in completing etc all this helps, even the correct height and updated photos on wiki would be of assistance. This goes for all not just this one. People have a wealth of information on these threads so a link to SSC is enough to make it acceptable, the photographs and info speak for themselves. I note wiki does have Emporis as an external link.

Yes so many people will never be honoured that is the problem. A monument fitting if it was possible to include each person's name but the passing of time and the historical records destroyed can make this task at times impossible. These monuments do not always have to be a figure of a person just as long as it lists the names if known that is what is significant so that future generations understand and know how people through risking their own lives were able to make something else possible.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 07:05 PM   #1457
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Hi!
The bas reliefs around Plac Konstytucji have been made by my Grandmother and actually the baby with the ball in his hands is my Father.
In Warszawa there are many more sculputers by Her and the babies are usually my Fathe like for example, "Flora" in Ulica Piwna.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #1458
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Anyone visiting Warsaw this summer should check out the sculptures, bas reliefs and mosaics that adorn the socialist realist buildings around Plac Konstytucji (at the southern end of Marszalkowska Street). Not just hard core socialist iconography, but some amazing folk motifs as well:















































Hi!
The bas reliefs around Plac Konstytucji have been made by my Grandmother and actually the baby with the ball in his hands is my Father.
In Warszawa there are many more sculputers by Her and the babies are usually my Fathe like for example, "Flora" in Ulica Piwna.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 10:05 PM   #1459
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What a pleasure it is to hear from someone with such personal ties to one of Warsaw's celebrated landmarks. ideology aside, the MDM complex was very well designed, and the socialist realist style was really about creating a high quality environment for people to live/work in. Even Stalin was quoted as saying about socialist realist projects: "Life has improved, my friends, life has become more cheerful. And when life is cheerful, it is easier to work hard."

Thanks for posting. Can you tell us any more history or anecdotes about the creation of these bas reliefs or pictures of other sculptures/bas reliefs. Maybe you could tell us a little more about your grandmother that might be connected with Warsaw's reconstruction.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old January 17th, 2014, 06:45 PM   #1460
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ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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