GENERAL DISCUSSION

[Rev Stickleback]

Originally Posted by Marckymarc

There's a very simple test you can do that pretty much proves my point conclusively--all you need is a digital watch with a countdown feature that includes tenths of a second or smaller increments:

Set the timer for 12 minutes (or 20, or whatever time you please) and start the timer. You will notice that when you start the timer it instantly will read 11:59.99.

You don't perhaps think it might have been at 12:00:00 for 1 hundredth of a second, but you couldn't tell?

Therefore unless the arena game clock likewise instantly shows 11:59 as play begins (which it doesn't) you will have an additional second as a result.

No, because even in that case, the game ends when the clock reaches zero, not a second after zero.


Maybe they should just have the scoreboard count 60,59,58,57......3,2,1...then "game over", as clearly having a 0 there could confuse a stupid person.



To put it more simply....which is more likely?

a) The people who design electronic timers for game clocks are make them count for and hour and a second, rather than an hour, because they've made a terrible mistake.

b) you are making the mistake

[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by CharlieP

Says whom? That's how countdown clocks work, as confirmed both by a timekeeper in the discussion I posted a link to and the original poster. He's seen a clock show "1:00" for a second, then switch to "59.9", and been confused by it because he's assumed that once the clock shows 1:00 there's a minute or less left to go. If that were the case, he'd only see "1:00" for 0.1 seconds so probably wouldn't even notice it at all, and we wouldn't be having this discussion!

Nope. The only confusion by me is why the clock doesn't change immediately to 19:59 as soon as the puck hits the ice, because, in your own words, "THAT'S HOW COUNTDOWN CLOCKS WORK".

Of course the "glitch" might be human error--that is, the timekeeper might not be hitting the start button for up to a second after play begins, but that's 6 of that and half dozen of the other. Extra time added by either a glitch or the timekeeper being a second late on the draw makes no difference to the mathematical result.

[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback

You don't perhaps think it might have been at 12:00:00 for 1 hundredth of a second, but you couldn't tell?

Ok, for you I'll rephrase it.

"Set the timer for 12 minutes (or 20, or whatever time you please) and start the timer. You will notice that when you start the timer it will, within 1/100th of a second, read 11:59.99."

There now

[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback

Maybe they should just have the scoreboard count 60,59,58,57......3,2,1...then "game over", as clearly having a 0 there could confuse a stupid person.

Actually, a stupid person would assume that a 20 minute countdown clock that doesn't start counting down until 1 second after play begins would still be 20 minutes at the buzzer and not 20 minutes + 1 second.


-

[Rev Stickleback]

Originally Posted by Marckymarc

Actually, a stupid person would assume that a 20 minute countdown clock that doesn't start counting down until 1 second after play begins would still be 20 minutes at the buzzer and not 20 minutes + 1 second.


-

It starts counting down immediately. It just doesn't change the display to 19:59 until the first second on the game is over. For the last second of the game it will display 00:01, not 00:00.

The game ends when then clock ticks to 0, not 1 second after 0.

Is that really such a difficult concept to grasp?


Think about it. Why would the makers of an electronic timer deliberately add an extra second?

[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback

It starts counting down immediately. It just doesn't change the display to 19:59 until the first second on the game is over.

Exactly. Do the math. Exactly 20 minutes have elapsed when the clock ticks down from 00:01 to 00:00.9. From 00:00.9 to 00:00.0 is another second. That's 20:01 total time elapsed.

[Rev Stickleback]

Exactly 20 minutes have elapsed when the clock ticks down from 00:01 to 00:00.9

20 minutes is 1200 seconds.

"Do the math?" So 1200 - 0.9 = 1200, exactly 20 minutes?

If you really believe what you are saying then imagine a 5 second game clock, and fill in the blanks below.

After 0.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 1.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 2.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 3.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 4.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 5.000 seconds, the clock will show....

[Alemanniafan]

Originally Posted by Marckymarc

Exactly. Do the math. Exactly 20 minutes have elapsed when the clock ticks down from 00:01 to 00:00.9. From 00:00.9 to 00:00.0 is another second. That's 20:01 total time elapsed.

Are you still in middle school?
Because uhmmm what you're ust doing here is pretty much anything but math. My first guess would be that it's some kind of modern art.

Let me explain

If a clock can only measure seconds then it ticks fown from 00:01 to 00:00 after 20 minutes.
If it can measure 1/10th seconds, then it takes 19 minutes 59 seconds and 1/10th second until it clicks down from 00:01:0 to 00:00:9
If it can mesure 1/100 seconds then it takes 19 minutes 59 seconds and 1/100th second until it clicks down from 00:01:00 to 00:00:99

If you switch the display from one range to another, the sensitivity of the clock doesnt change.
So if the clock would only display seconds until the last second of the game starts, then it takes 19 minutes and 59 seconds until the range of the display switches to a more sensitive display for example displaying the 1/100th of a second. So after 19 minutes and 59 seconds the display would switch from 00:02 to 00:01:00 (instead of switching to 00:01) and then after another 1/100th of a second it would display 00:00:99.
If it doesn't display 00:01:00 but leaves out the last two digits 00 it would look like 00:01 for one 1/100th of a second before the last two digits being :99 show up. and the clock looks like 00:00:99.

There is no second being added it's just that the moment when the clock switches from one display range, where it shows only seconds, to a more sensitive display range, where it starts showing the 1/10th or even 1/100th seconds, might be a bit of an awkward moment.
But what the clock really measures internally, is allways the full sensitivity including the 1/100th seconds or as one should expect even far smaller fractions of seconds.

[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback

20 minutes is 1200 seconds.

"Do the math?" So 1200 - 0.9 = 1200, exactly 20 minutes?

If you really believe what you are saying then imagine a 5 second game clock, and fill in the blanks below.

After 0.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 1.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 2.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 3.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 4.999 seconds, the clock will show....
After 5.000 seconds, the clock will show....

Ok here you go:

(Remember that as you stated in your previous post...

It just doesn't change the display to 19:59 until the first second on the game is over....

...it takes a second for the clock to change after play begins, therefore...)

After 0.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:04
After 1.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:03
After 2.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:02
After 3.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:01
After 4.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:00.9
After 5.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:00.0

That's 6 seconds in a supposedly 5 second game.

Like I said, do the math.


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[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by Alemanniafan

Are you still in middle school?
Because uhmmm what you're ust doing here is pretty much anything but math. My first guess would be that it's some kind of modern art.

How does this not add up?

It takes 1 second of play for the clock to change to 19:59...it takes another 19 minutes and 59 seconds for the clock to change to 00:00.9....it takes another second for the clock to reach 00:00.0

Now tell me what you get when you add those totals up.

1 second
+
19 minutes and 59 seconds
+
0.9 seconds
=
?

[Rev Stickleback]

Originally Posted by Marckymarc

After 3.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:01
After 4.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:00.9

-

So time slows down here then, and only counts 1/10th of a second in this second? (as well as a clock that indicates in seconds suddenly changing to show 1/10th of a second)

But now you've introduced 1/10th of a second into this stadium clock, lets see how that would look.

After 0.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:04.1
After 1.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:03.1
After 2.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:02.1
After 3.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:01.1
After 4.999 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:00.1
After 5.000 seconds, the clock will show.... 00:00.0

and no, the clock doesn't start at 5.9, so you are either going to find a way of making the clock go from 1.1 to 0.9 in one second, admit you can see your mistake, or more likely, just be shown up as a troll. After all the explanations you've received, it's nigh on impossible that anyone could still not get it.

ps
http://www.ramocafe.com/t86719.html

sharing the idea with a wider audience, are we?

[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback

So time slows down here then, and only counts 1/10th of a second in this second? (as well as a clock that indicates in seconds suddenly changing to show 1/10th of a second)

Look, I'll make this so simple that anyone--even someone like you who obviously can't grasp elementary math--can get it.

Follow along if you can:

A 5 second game clock: 00:05

After 1 second of game play the clock ticks down to 00:04
After 2 seconds of game play the clock ticks down to 00:03
After 3 seconds of game play the clock ticks down to 00:02
After 4 seconds of game play the clock ticks down to 00:01
After 5 seconds of game play the clock ticks down to 00:00.9
After 6 seconds of game play the clock ticks down to 00:00.0

Six seconds. Do. the. math.

Now if that was too hard for you let's make it eeeeeeeeven simpler: a 2 second game clock

00:02 *Start*

After 1 second of game play the clock ticks down to 00:01

After 2 seconds of game play the clock goes into 1/10 second mode and ticks down to 00:00.9

After 3 seconds of game play the clock ticks down to 00:00.0 *horn*

Are you catching on yet?

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[Alemanniafan]

Originally Posted by Marckymarc

How does this not add up?

It takes 1 second of play for the clock to change to 19:59...it takes another 19 minutes and 59 seconds for the clock to change to 00:00.9....it takes another second for the clock to reach 00:00.0

Now tell me what you get when you add those totals up.

1 second
+
19 minutes and 59 seconds
+
0.9 seconds
=
?

No, in your eample it doesn't take another 19 minutes and 59 seconds.
It only takes another 19 minutes and 58 seconds and 1/10th of a second. And after that it takes another 0.9 seconds until the game ends.
So the math you have to do is:

1second
+
19 minutes and 58 seconds and 1/10th of a second
+
0.9 seconds
= 20 minutes


Let me try to show it to you the simple way again.

A) The elapes time on the left, B) the time displayed on clock showing seconds in the middle and C) on the right a clock showing 1/10th of a second.
Excuse me for not posting 1/100th of a second, because it would be far to much work.


I'll start with the last 1,5 seconds in a 20 minute match.


A) ; B); C)

19:58:5 ; 00:02 ; 00:01:5
19:58:6 ; 00:02 ; 00:01:4
19:58:7 ; 00:02 ; 00:01:3
19:58:8 ; 00:02 ; 00:01:2
19:58:9 ; 00:02 ; 00:01:1
19:59:0 ; 00:01 ; 00:01:0
19:59:1 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:9
19:59:2 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:8
19:59:3 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:7
19:59:4 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:6
19:59:5 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:5
19:59:6 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:4
19:59:7 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:3
19:59:8 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:2
19:59:9 ; 00:01 ; 00:00:1
20:00:0 ; 00:00 ; 00:00:0 = END OF GAME

The red lines are the full seconds and you can switch from one displayed time to another whenever you want, but you have to take the synchronous moments not hop from one point in time to another.
What you're trying to do, is to hop from the very last moment before the game ends on the clock displaying only full seconds (here in blue), over to the moment where just a bit less than 1 full second still remains to be played. (here in green)
The yellow numbers are the ones you'd have correctly displayed when jumping at the red 00:01 to the green 00:00:9 on the more sensitive clock display.

So when you switch from the clock showing seconds to the one showing 1/10th of a second at the beginning of the last second the 00:01 seems to magically "dissapear" very quickly because it turns into 00:00:9 after one 1/10th of a second allready.
If you switch from seconds to 1/10th seconds at a moment two seconds before the game ends, then the 00:02 would "dissapear" quickly after just one 1/10th of a second and is replaced by the more accurate 00:01:9 instead. That hast to be so of course, because the interval at which the display switches then is far more sensitive than it was before.
It doesn't really make sense to display a time as accurately as 1/10th of a second for a full second, does it?
And 00:01:0 or 00:00:9 are as accurate as 1/10th of a second, wether you display the ":0" at the end or just leave it out and display only the "00:01", it has to be replaced after 1/10th of a second on a clock as sensitive as 1/10th of a second - or else something is wrong.

And once more again:

As I allready explained before a countdown is not the same as a reversed clock counting up.
If you define the time on the countdown before the event that's relevant as negative
A clock ticking on past the zero would show

- 00:02
- 00:01
00:00
+ 00:01
+ 00:02
...
each of these for a second.

And the important incident (here the end of the game) is synchronized to the beginning of the interval during which the clock displays 00:00 , because a stopwatch or counting up starts at 00:00 when it's started (not at 00:01)

leaving out the "-" sign and counting down and up again you'll get this:

00:02
00:01
--------- (End of game, or start of new measurement counting up is synchronized to the incident the clock ticks down to 00:00)
00:00
00:01
00:02

But if you take a stopwatch or clock counting up and reverse it by recording it on video and playing it backwards. And use that to countdown

00:02
00:01
00:00
----------End of game, start of new measurement
00:00
00:01
00:02

So the 00:00 in this case would end up being displayed "twice" for a full second and since the clock doesn't noticeably switch from 00:00 to 00:00 one couldn't even tell when the game ends or starts.

And because a countdown is not a reversed stopwatch the time for which it displays 00:01 (which is identical to 00:01:00) before switching to display 1/100th of seconds and thus displaying 00:00:99 then, takes just 1/100th of as second on a countdown.

A normal clock which counts up though comes from 00:00:00 and ticks up to 00:01:00 after one second.
And after that it either displays 00:01:01 or if you switch to a mode showing only full seconds it displays 00:01 for a full second.

As You might see now, there is a difference between the two, which is a little irritating.
And that's because a clock is allways synchronized to the beginning of the interval during which it displays a time, not to the middle or to the end.
The point to which the clock is synchronized is not symmetrically in the middle of the display intervals and that is also the reason why a countdown is not just simply a reversed clock, because to be reversable the synchronisation would have to be in the center of the display interval.
(But if it were, then in that case, the clock would switch from 00:00 to 00:01 allready after half a second)

[Rev Stickleback]

Originally Posted by Marckymarc

After 1 second of game play the clock ticks down to 00:01

After 2 seconds of game play the clock goes into 1/10 second mode and ticks down to 00:00.9

-

Why would it take a whole second to go from 00:01 to 00:00.9?

Refer to my example above or stop wasting people's time.

I've just about given you the benefit of the doubt because nothing in your posting history suggests you start similar threads elsewhere, and you don't seem to be a kid, but it's almost unknown to be this obtuse without trying.

This idea that the clocks sits there displaying 1 second for a second, then goes to 0.9, is just in your head. It doesn't happen. It would show 1 for 1/10th of a second.

I have an electronic timer just like that. It mainly counts in minutes, but flips to seconds for the last minute.

for between 120 and 60 seconds it'll show a 2.
When there are 60 seconds left, it'll show a 1.
When there are 59 seconds left, it'll show 59.

It does not sit there for a whole minute showing 2, then another whole minute showing 1, then go to 59.

[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback

Why would it take a whole second to go from 00:01 to 00:00.9?

For the same reason it would take a whole second to go from 1:00 to 00.59.9 Einstein.

[Marckymarc]

Originally Posted by Alemanniafan

No, in your eample it doesn't take another 19 minutes and 59 seconds.
It only takes another 19 minutes and 58 seconds and 1/10th of a second.

When the period starts, the clock takes 1 second to tick down to 19:59 from 20:00, right?

Answer me this one simple question:

What is it, including the invisible decimals, for the full second before it changes to 19:59?

You're ignoring the glaring fact that the clock does not change from 20:00 to 19:59 until one second of play has elapsed.

If, as you say, 19:59 is really 19:59.9--19:59.0, then what is 20:00 for the full second it displays!?

Logically it must be 20:00.9--20:00.0


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[Alemanniafan]

Originally Posted by Marckymarc

When the period starts, the clock takes 1 second to tick down to 19:59 from 20:00, right?

Answer me this one simple question:

What is it, including the invisible decimals, for the full second before it changes to 19:59?

You're ignoring the glaring fact that the clock does not change from 20:00 to 19:59 until one second of play has elapsed.

If, as you say, 19:59 is really 19:59.9--19:59.0, then what is 20:00 for the full second it displays!?

Logically it must be 20:00.9--20:00.0


-

No, wrong thinking again. (in the words of your posting the 19.59 on one clock is kind of the time from 15:58:99999999999 to 19:58:0000000000000 on a far more sensitive clock. Notice that it's 58."something" not like you think 59."something". If you loo at my coloured example of a timeline, you'll also see that. This is so, because the clock is allways synchronized to the beginning of the display interval. And the moment when one clock switches to 19:59 is the exact same moment a far more sensitive clock switches to the mathematically identical 19:59:000000000000.(Add as many zeros as you want)
So however accurate a clock can display the time, if they're all perfectly synchronised they all switch to the mathematically identical time of 15:59 =15:59:0 = 15:59.00 = 15:59:00000 or... at the exact same moment in time.
But the timeinterval for how long that time is being displays after that moment then naturally varies of course from clock to clock because they have different sesitivities. I know it might seem awkward, to see "58.something" on the sensitive clock instead of "59.something" when the less sensitive clock display just the "59", but it is indeed correct that way and it has to be like that, because of the way clocks are synchronized.
And it all looks perfectly "normal" and "usual" when the clocks count up, after passing the 00:00:00, it just happens to look "awkward" when counting down before it reaches 00:00:00.
But it's not the display interval that's really of main interest in a clock, it's the very moment when it switches that matters, because those are the moments when it displays the exact time for an infinitesimally brief moment.
And these moments are what has to be aligned between the clocks when they are being synchronized with each other.
It's really of no importance that the 9s or 5s or zeros or 59s look nice and the way one might "want" them to look when "hopping" from one clock to another, from one sensitivity to another. What matters instead is that the clocks all show the exact same time synchronously when they reach those moments, where they switch to a timevalue that they can all display correctly/exactly and mathematically identical on all clocks. And here in our example it just matters that all clocks start showing 19:59 = 19:59:000000 the exact moment when there are 19 minutes and 59 seconds left to play - and it really doesnt matter much how long they display that time or when they stop displaying that.)

the first 1,5 seconds of the game look like this:
(again just like in my coloured example: A) The elapsed time on the left, B) the time displayed on clock showing seconds in the middle and C) on the right a clock showing 1/10th of a second.)

A) ; B); C)

00:00:0 ; 20:00 ; 20:00:0 = Start of gameplay
00:00:1 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:9
00:00:2 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:8
00:00:3 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:7
00:00:4 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:6
00:00:5 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:5
00:00:6 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:4
00:00:7 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:3
00:00:8 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:2
00:00:9 ; 20:00 ; 19:59:1
00:01:0 ; 19:59 ; 19:59:0
00:01:1 ; 19:59 ; 19:58:9
00:01:2 ; 19:59 ; 19:58:8
00:01:3 ; 19:59 ; 19:58:7
00:01:4 ; 19:59 ; 19:58:6
00:01:5 ; 19:59 ; 19:58:5

again the full seconds in red.

Feel free to put it into an exel sheet and check itall the way down to 0:00:0.
(Or write it down by hand or copy paste all the way down to the last second)
You'll see the times that I posted are right.

If you don't understand my explanations, feel free to read my postings again and again, an check them with the numbers.
But do keep in mind that some people here have indeed posted faulty timelines (some examples, where there really would be an extra second added), so don't let that confuse you.
It's actually indeed pretty simple, it just has to be done thoroughly and correctly.

And keep in mind that the countdown has to be done in the way that the clock can continue running like any normal clock does after the end of the countdown, just like I also explained.
If you define the time before the event (here the end of game) as negative and let the clock run past 0 into positive values you can easily check if everything you've written down is correct.
Scientifically a clock has to run past the 0 and not show any display interval twice or twice as long or shorter or longer than the rest.
And the end of the game is allways exactly the incident when the 00:00:00 shows up on the display.
You may also feel free to think of it as "infinitesimally before" the 00:00:00 shows up, because then you'll understand, that the timeinterval during which the 00:00:00 is being displayed is allready past the end of the game (or the incident the clock is synchronized to). Just like the start of the game is the incident when the 20:00 starts showing up or thought of as "infinitesimally before" that display interval of each clock starts.

If you don't want to do it for 20 minutes (what I can really understand), do it for a game lasting only 60 - better 61 or 65 seconds, so you'll understand how the minutes work also.
They have to be displayed just like REV Stickleback described his minute sensitive clock when it's switching to seconds and displays them and the minutes also have to be displayed just like on a normal clock after the 0:00 in the positive timevalues.

It's all just such a confusing or strange little hazzle, because the synchronisation of a clock is "assymetric" and not in the middle of the display interval.
But it really wouldn't make all that much sense to synchronize a clock with the middle of the display intervals.
Because if one would do such, one could never really tell when exactly it turns noon or midnight or 3:15 am or whatever other time, because looking at the clock you'd only know the moment of interest is in between the clock switching to the desired time and away from that time again. But you could never really know when exactly that moment is or was. Just like you simply can't tell when exactly it is 3h 35 minutes and 10,5 seconds on a normal watch.

I've done enough explaining here, far too much actually.

If you still don't fully understand where your mistake is, just take your time and simply continue the numbers the way I wrote them down and fill the gap between the start and the end.
Whenever you're at a full second all the clocks have to show full seconds just like they do in my example (because 00:01 is mathematically identical to 00:01:0 and not to 00:00:9 or 00:01:1 and the clocks allways have to show the same time in these moments, when they're running synchronous otherwise they'd have an offset). You'll quickly understand how it all works then.

Alemanniafan

[Rev Stickleback]

Originally Posted by Marckymarc

When the period starts, the clock takes 1 second to tick down to 19:59 from 20:00, right?

Answer me this one simple question:

What is it, including the invisible decimals, for the full second before it changes to 19:59?

You're ignoring the glaring fact that the clock does not change from 20:00 to 19:59 until one second of play has elapsed.

If, as you say, 19:59 is really 19:59.9--19:59.0, then what is 20:00 for the full second it displays!?

Logically it must be 20:00.9--20:00.0


-

Logically you'd be spot on if clocks displayed the 1 for a whole second, then went to 0.9

They don't.

They'd display 1 for 0.1 seconds, then go to 0.9


They don't start a second early - give it some though. Why would anyone design it to do that?
They don't add an extra second between going from 1 to 0.9 - again, give it some thought. why would they design it like that?

Electronic timers aren't wrong. You are.


You've invented your own two little ideas, that of the clock "really" starting at 20:00.9 and also it taking a second to go from 1 to 0.9 (hey, isn't that an extra two seconds!) and you are arguing based on your own incorrect assumptions.


To be frank though, the fact that you keep moving the goalposts to avoid answering the questions put to you, leads me to conclude you are just trolling for some reason.

[en1044]

I have a feeling that one day, long after this thread has been closed, that it will be considered the Ultimate Internet Study on sports game clock management.

Congrats guys...you're famous.

[CharlieP]

This thread is getting boring.

The simple answer is that a countdown timer set to measure 12 minutes will measure 12 minutes exactly - the only confusion is caused by what it's displaying on-screen as it's doing so. If it appears to show 1:00 for a second before switching to 59.9, that's because it's displaying times with a precision of 1/10 second, but not showing the tenths of seconds for anything over 1:00.

1:01.0
1:00.9
1:00.8
1:00.7
1:00.6
1:00.5
1:00.4
1:00.3
1:00.2
1:00.1
1:00.0
59.5
59.8

If that's the case, then at the start the timer should instantly switch to 11:59.9 once game time starts. markymarc is claiming that it doesn't, but I want to know how he can make this claim, given that he has no way of knowing when the timer has been started. Is an official in a booth pressing a button when the referee blows his whistle? If so, you have to factor in reaction time (I watch a lot of televised rugby, and there's always a lag of about a second between the referee signalling time off, and the clock stopping, which isn't a problem since you have the same lag when he restarts the game). Is there a hooter at the start of the game? If so, does the game officially start at the start of the hooter?

The only way to prove this once and for all is by writing to the NBA or NHL and asking them to explain how they time games.