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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:23 PM   #381
Cherguevara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nerd
This appears to be the current list of routes being actively considered (from TfGM)

I think I recognise all these from discussions here; other than number five: Didsbury - Hazel Grove.

I presume that the proposal would follow the old Cheadle Heath line from Hazel Grove, and hence link up with Metrolink at East Didsbury, along part of the currently unfunded Didsbury - Stockport Metrolink extension.

- But would the tram-train to Hazel Grove be justified as a stand-alone proposal; or would the full Stockport extension have to happen as well.

- And is the alignment of the suspended Stockport extension and bridges consistent with a link to the Cheadle Heath line.

If this becomes, in effect, and alternative to the Stockport extension; I can see Stockport borough being very unhappy.
Wasn't it Stockport council who asked for their Metrolink line to be pulled from the TIF bid? Maybe they aren't that enthusiastic about the original scheme, although I'm not sure why that would be.

I'm sure Alty-Stockport was previously described as continuing to Manchester. Maybe this is now considered a better route to Stockport.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:38 PM   #382
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The proposed route for the Stockport extension was meant to get very close to, and maybe even run parallel to, the Hazel grove line for a short section. Here's a map I just drew:



(Yellow - Stockport Extension as described on lrta.org, Red - my guess as to route of Hazel Grove connection)

The junction between the two routes would be situated in the currently derelict Gorsey Bank, so there does not seem to be an issue of space. Furthermore, I was given to believe that the main obstacle to the Stockport line was the prohibitive cost of 3 bridges, thus the construction of the first (and most expensive one) will significantly help the CBR of the Stockport line. The proposal of an extension to Hazel Grove actually makes me much more hopeful about the Stockport line.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:41 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil
The proposed route for the Stockport extension was meant to get very close to, and maybe even run parallel to, the Hazel grove line for a short section. Here's a map I just drew:

The junction between the two routes would be situated in the currently derelict Gorsey Bank, so there does not seem to be an issue of space. Furthermore, I was given to believe that the main obstacle to the Stockport line was the prohibitive cost of 3 bridges, thus the construction of the first (and most expensive one) will significantly help the CBR of the Stockport line. The proposal of an extension to Hazel Grove actually makes me much more hopeful about the Stockport line.
Isn't the ascent to Cheadle Heath too steep from Gorsey Bank? The old railway used to be much higher across the valley, although that was designed for steam do maybe it isn't comparable?
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:55 PM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
The proposed route for the Stockport extension was meant to get very close to, and maybe even run parallel to, the Hazel grove line for a short section. Here's a map I just drew:
The junction between the two routes would be situated in the currently derelict Gorsey Bank, so there does not seem to be an issue of space. Furthermore, I was given to believe that the main obstacle to the Stockport line was the prohibitive cost of 3 bridges, thus the construction of the first (and most expensive one) will significantly help the CBR of the Stockport line. The proposal of an extension to Hazel Grove actually makes me much more hopeful about the Stockport line.
I'd have thought that it would be more likely that a Hazel Grove tram/train would stay on Network Rail lines until just short of Piccadilly and then drop onto the streets. That way the Stockport to Hazel Grove route is preserved.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #385
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Certainly the embankment on the North side of the first bridge (crossing the M60 and the river simultaneously) would have to be very large. There actually already is a large embankment there, but I think it might only be as high as the road surface on the M60, so they'd have to add another 16 feet for it to clear to road (or the bridge could be sloped).

I don't think any large slopes would be required on the south side - the bridge taking the current goods line across the M60 isn't particularly tall, so if the new metrolink bridge cleared the motorway, it would be the correct height.

The place I was most concerned about is the drop from Gorsey Bank to King's Reach - this would be quite a slope. The area on the South bank is very overgrown, so it's hard to see how big the drop is, but I'd imagine that they would need to cut out a fair bit of sandstone to get a reasonable alignment.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #386
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Altfish: I think the WCML route from Stockport into Piccadilly is running at capacity, meaning there is not space for the tram-train; it also takes a large variety of vehicles, which is problematic for tram-train, as all heavy-rail vehicles the tram-train shares with have to be fitted with safety equipment to prevent them from crashing into the tram-train. Therefore, if tram-trains ran from Hazel Grove through to Davenport and then to Stockport, they would have to come off that line at Edgeley Junction - it's not clear where they could go from there if they wanted to get to Manchester.

The route I assumed they were referring to in this proposal was the Hazel Grove to Altrincham line, which is a separate line entirely, and could be linked relatively simply to the rest of the network at Didsbury, using the proposed alignment of the Didsbury-Stockport line.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 02:42 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
The proposed route for the Stockport extension was meant to get very close to, and maybe even run parallel to, the Hazel grove line for a short section. Here's a map I just drew:



(Yellow - Stockport Extension as described on lrta.org, Red - my guess as to route of Hazel Grove connection)

The junction between the two routes would be situated in the currently derelict Gorsey Bank, so there does not seem to be an issue of space. Furthermore, I was given to believe that the main obstacle to the Stockport line was the prohibitive cost of 3 bridges, thus the construction of the first (and most expensive one) will significantly help the CBR of the Stockport line. The proposal of an extension to Hazel Grove actually makes me much more hopeful about the Stockport line.
Do it like this

And you still only need 3 bridges (2 motorway bridges and one river bridge this time) and you get a myriad of connection possibilities!
E.Didsbury-Stockport (and beyond )
E.Didsbury-Hazel Grove
Stockport-Airport
Hazel Grove-Airport
E.Didsbury-Airport (not that useful)
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Old September 14th, 2012, 03:19 PM   #388
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That's an interesting idea - I like all the connection possibilities, however the current motorway bridge for the goods line is single track, therefore you would need a new bridge there anyway. Also I think the Gorsey Bank - Stockport connection was important to the scheme as they wanted to build a business park there. Basically, Hazel-Grove to Stockport via this route is a bit pointless, but Cheadle Heath -Stockport is not, so either the Didsbury-Stockport or Airport-Stockport should have a station in Cheadle Heath.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
The proposed route for the Stockport extension was meant to get very close to, and maybe even run parallel to, the Hazel grove line for a short section. Here's a map I just drew:



(Yellow - Stockport Extension as described on lrta.org, Red - my guess as to route of Hazel Grove connection)

The junction between the two routes would be situated in the currently derelict Gorsey Bank, so there does not seem to be an issue of space. Furthermore, I was given to believe that the main obstacle to the Stockport line was the prohibitive cost of 3 bridges, thus the construction of the first (and most expensive one) will significantly help the CBR of the Stockport line. The proposal of an extension to Hazel Grove actually makes me much more hopeful about the Stockport line.
Thanks - that is most helpful Gerbil.

I suspect that - if the Stockport extension were to be built at the same time, then there would be a delta junction at Gorsey Bank, so that some Hazel Grove trams could go into Stockport Town Centre.

What intrigues me is how this particular route got onto the list. It is a tram-tran proposal, in that the vehicles would need to be tram-train type on account of the continued use of the line for goods.

But there is currently no passenger service on this line; and hence no multi-million pound annual subsidy that could potentially be diverted into a capital fund. So this line does not meet the criteria set out in the Network Rail RUS.

If it were to happen, then the construction cost would presumably have to come from the GM Transport Fund; but that is likely to be fully committed on the Trafford Centre line and the SEMMMS road contsruction. Nor, on the face of it, would this appear to offer an immediate return in GW-wide GVA improvements - which is what has been suggested will drive prioritising schemes for Tax Increment Fincane investment.

And loading another Soute Eastern flow on the South Western Metrolink arm would appear to create an even more imbalenced system.

On the other hand, it would run through a number of highly built-up residential areas - and could releive the A6 logjam. Long-term, I remain interested in the idea of running a tram-train from Stockport town centre north up Lancashisre Hill to Reddish and Reddish North and Belle Vue. Perhaps they could make a circuit?
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Old September 14th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nerd View Post
But there is currently no passenger service on this line;
This introduces another difficulty in that they would need to build several new stations and probably redouble an active goods line without taking it out of service.

Where did you get the list of proposed new lines from? Are they in some order of priority?
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Old September 14th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
Altfish: I think the WCML route from Stockport into Piccadilly is running at capacity, meaning there is not space for the tram-train; it also takes a large variety of vehicles, which is problematic for tram-train, as all heavy-rail vehicles the tram-train shares with have to be fitted with safety equipment to prevent them from crashing into the tram-train. Therefore, if tram-trains ran from Hazel Grove through to Davenport and then to Stockport, they would have to come off that line at Edgeley Junction - it's not clear where they could go from there if they wanted to get to Manchester.

The route I assumed they were referring to in this proposal was the Hazel Grove to Altrincham line, which is a separate line entirely, and could be linked relatively simply to the rest of the network at Didsbury, using the proposed alignment of the Didsbury-Stockport line.
But surely they would replace the existing electrics with tram'trains and need no more 'paths'.
The route you are proposing is certainly feasible, but how long would it take to get into Manchester? It's all round the houses.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
This introduces another difficulty in that they would need to build several new stations and probably redouble an active goods line without taking it out of service.

Where did you get the list of proposed new lines from? Are they in some order of priority?
The list is quoted from a report to the most recent Combined Authority meeting. The list seems to rotate widdershins from the Marple line around Manchester centre - but may also indicate some sort of priority, I don't know.

And yes, they will need to redouble the line; for instance where a double-track bridge is being replaced by a single (as at Hazel Grove).
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Old September 14th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #393
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Quote:
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But surely they would replace the existing electrics with tram'trains and need no more 'paths'.
The route you are proposing is certainly feasible, but how long would it take to get into Manchester? It's all round the houses.
I suspect the main attraction will be the Stepping Hill site; this would allow ready access to the hospital from South Manchester and Heaton Mersey.

It is clearly unlikely that anyone would ride a tram to get from Hazel Grove into central Manc (or into the airport). But more likely that there could be a flow the other way.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 06:24 PM   #394
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I've previously suggested the Didsbury to Hazel Grove route.

Wouldn't this, along with the Altrincham to Knutsford route, effectively be an extension of the current tram line? So instead of tram-trains, just simply extend the tramway's passage?
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Old September 14th, 2012, 08:22 PM   #395
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How many freight trains still use the Hazel Grove - Navigation Road link these days?
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Old September 14th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #396
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How many freight trains still use the Hazel Grove - Navigation Road link these days?
Not sure of the exact number but living next to Deansgate Crossings, I reckon there are 6 to 8 per day; most are Tunstead to Winnington limestone trains
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Old September 26th, 2012, 02:09 AM   #397
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Across the Channel.

Quote:
Lyon tram-train service launched
25 September 2012

FRANCE: SNCF began operating tram-train services from Lyon Saint-Paul to Sain-Bel on September 24, following an official opening ceremony two days before.

On weekdays there is now a service every 30 min, increasing to every 15 min between Lyon and L'Abresle during the peaks. It is hoped that ridership will double from present levels to 13 200 passengers a day by the end of 2012.

It is the first of three routes from Lyon Saint-Paul serving the city's western suburbs that are to be converted to tram-train operation. Subject to obtaining the necessary safety approvals, Alstom Citadis Dualis vehicles are expect to begin operating to Brignais in December, followed by the route to Lozanne that has required construction of a new east to south chord at Tassin.

Total cost of the infrastructure work required for the west Lyon tram-train programme is estimated at €150·2m, of which €91·4m is being provided by the Rhône-Alpes region, €16·5m by the French government and €15·9m by infrastructure authority RFF. Greater Lyon authority has contributed €13·1m, the Rhône departement €12·5m and SNCF €800 000.

Infrastructure work comprised doubling some sections of single line, lengthening passing loops, track renewals, electrification and resignalling. Platforms have been rebuilt to provide level boarding, while a €35m station modernisation programme included the installation of a real-time passenger information and improved facilities for cyclists. A new station has been built at Lentilly-Charpenay, and Dommartin-Lissieu relocated; both now provide park and ride facilities.

Within a €650m framework agreement between SNCF and Alstom for up to 200 vehicles, a fleet of 24 Citadis Dualis tram-trains has been acquired for €100m, entirely funded by the Rhône-Alpes region. The 42 m long vehicles have 100 seats and can accommodate 150 standing passengers, with a maximum speed of 100 km/h.

Maintenance is undertaken at a new facility built on a 1·5 ha site near L'Arbresle station, funded by the Rhône-Alpes region (€11·48m) and SNCF (€3·82m).
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...-launched.html
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Old September 26th, 2012, 05:28 AM   #398
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One thing that strikes me about that article is the power of decision making at a regional level. The sooner we get that sorted in this country the better off we'll be.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #399
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Thanks for that WZ.

As I understand it, the term 'tram-train' is applied rather differently in France from that in the UK (or Germany). Most of the, highly successful, recent tram systems in France conform to a pattern; they run alongside existing streets (though generally in dedicated lanes rather than mixed traffic); they have narrow, 2.4 metre, bodies; they have frequent stops and low-floor boarding; and they run slow, and hence lines are short. In French usage, as I understand it, a tram-train uses tram-like vehicles but wider (2.65m), it runs along a dedicated off-road route (which may well be a converted rail alignment); it has fewer stops and runs faster; and so can serve destinations further out from the town centre.

So the express tram line from Lyon station to the airport is described as at 'tram-train'; because, although it runs over tram lines for part of the route, it passes many stops using express loops. My understanding is that there is no heavy rail traffic on the tram-train route.

Hence, I think that the French would class Manchester Metrolink as a tram-train - whereas in the UK or Germany, the key determinant of tram-train status is whether there is any part of the line that is shared with heavy rail traffic.

Do I understand right?
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Old September 26th, 2012, 02:11 PM   #400
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100kmh is 62.5mph noticably faster than our system though the distance between the town and the city is about 25km which is something like Manchester to Warrington.
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