TRANSPORT | Piccadilly To Victoria Direct Rail Link | Ordsall Curve

[NetworkRailLad]

Is there a 'northern hub' thread or is this the closest thing?

[newdoader]

Originally Posted by Wilson H Anthony

Not seen this before.

The half through design suits that location better the other looks far to obtrusive.

[Fernando Partridge]

Originally Posted by VDB

It was an exaggeration; but knowing the way consultation peroids go I really wouldn't be surprised if this is delayed 4 years.

"Something that is useful and will help the economy, you say?! Well then, I must stand in the way and be as awkward as possible, in order to stop any progress!!!!"- said the British public

It's not the British public, it's the British legal / consultancy profession who love this sort of stuff to drag out as it brings in the money for them.

The British public makes its objections quite quickly, it's the lengthy process to have this objections heard that takes time.

[LNGCats]

Much better than the Chinese model as well.

[slipdigby]

"Castlefield Residents" have graciously allowed their response to the Ordsall Curve consultation to be published by Manchester Confidential. Some of it is fairly common sense, but some does make you wonder...

http://www.manchesterconfidential.co...anges-to-Chord

Our key point is this: at present Liverpool Road station, the first passenger train station in the world, is connected to the national and indeed European railway network it generated, whereas if the Chord is built in its proposed form it will be disconnected from it. At present, you could catch a train from Liverpool Road station to Edinburgh, Brighton, Paris or Barcelona whereas the Chord in its proposed form will mean you won’t be able to catch a train to anywhere. The link that has been there for 182 years will be severed.

We understand from you that trains have made use of this connection only about three times in the last ten years and that this usage is considered insufficient to justify retaining the link. While we understand this thinking we consider it to be short-termist. Like the historic viaducts and bridges nearby, the new viaduct and bridges can be expected to last hundreds of years. Within that time it is not unrealistic to envisage that the wish to use a direct link to the national and European network might increase.

Do Castlefield Residents know something about the proposed site of the HS2 terminus that we don't?

Best,
Slip

[Cherguevara]

If the chord sends the MOSI management into a fury I can barely imagine the apoplexy that would greet the news that they're to host the HS2 terminal.

But seriously no, it sounds like some rail hobbyist who believes no piece of former infrastructure should be disused has taken this attitude (usually seen whenever someone mentions Woodhead or Fallowfield) to the extreme.

[WatcherZero]

You get the same people saying Manchester Central should be made into a station again.

[madferret]

So who's for ringing MOSI tomorrow and asking for a return to Barcelona?



This is getting to sound like the heritage group that delayed the East London Line extension for 2 years because of listed viaduct arches that no one could actually see because it was surrounded by other buildings. The line eventually was built and the arches are more visible now everything has been demolished around them!

[iheartthenew]

The people (bloke?) that built the original station/viaduct/eye would have smashed the place to smithereens in the name of progress.

[Kofieye]

At present, you could catch a train from Liverpool Road station to Edinburgh, Brighton, Paris or Barcelona

What sort of "could" are we talking here? You could if you were a millionaire and you chartered your own f***ing train maybe!

Brainless!

Although it would make interesting reading... has anyone ever chartered a train from a heritage railway, onto NR, down through the tunnel into France and thence to Spain... It would have to be a diesel train too! I'm guessing the answer is no.

[js1000]

You have Liverpool Road station - the station for the first rail journey in 1830 as well as Stephenson's Bridge. Then you have Bridgewater Canal - the first true canal which transported coal by water rather than on horseback. I was watching an episode of Big, Bigger, Biggest on the Panama Canal the other day on Channel 5. It explored the development of three revolutionary canals: the Briare Canal, Manchester Ship Canal & yep, the Bridgewater. These industrial relics get better every year because it symbolises an era that has been and gone. For that it seems preserving to me.

I've read the Castlefield residents letter - I think it is very fair. Like them I agree the bowstring bridge is far superior and thumbs up for the corten steel. Bearing in mind MOSI is one of Manchester most visited attractions and Castlefield is a designated 'Urban Heritage Park' it wouldn't surprise if the proposal will be rejected next year & NR are asked a devised a more 'tact' solution shall we say.

[newdoader]

Then after 5 wasted years of going backwards and forwards between the relevant parties it will reach the idiot Pickles desk he will rub his grubby little hands together in shear delight and scrap the whole project.

[Farsight]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

You get the same people saying Manchester Central should be made into a station again.

And the Woodhead line reopened. People like me. I tell you guys, all those Beeching Axe cuts was a terrible mistake. This isn't in the same league, but I have sympathy. Surely there's a way around this where everybody is happy? Or is conflict all part of the plan to string it all out?

[slipdigby]

Originally Posted by Farsight

And the Woodhead line reopened. People like me. I tell you guys, all those Beeching Axe cuts was a terrible mistake. This isn't in the same league, but I have sympathy. Surely there's a way around this where everybody is happy? Or is conflict all part of the plan to string it all out?

To some extent there will always be attitude polarisation in these cases. Camp A will accuse their opposite number of desecrating a heritage site of world importance and hamstringing a plucky local museum. Meanwhile Camp B retort that their opponents are just a bunch of train cranks who never got out of Thomas the Tank Engine and short trousers.

In this case, there is a half way house which is a flat crossing on the chord allowing retained access to MOSI. But, as with any compromise there are issues. Firstly, any flat crossing is a complicated and expensive bit of permanent way to maintain. Such a solution would presumably rule out including a degree of cant for increased service speed on the chord. In addition the connection would have to included in any new signalling, along with compliant protection of the running lines from MOSI's up and down effort (ironically probably further cutting back on the usable length of track available for demonstration trains). Current services preclude pretty much any semi regular charter operation into Liverpool Road as it stands (three in the past ten years as I understand it). With the addition of the chord and another half dozen (plus the rest) services per hour, these few opportunities will rapidly become nil. So the retained link would remain as a symbolic and mostly unusable connection as it has done for the past decade, but now at significant cost and potential disbenefit to the thousands of users of the chord each day*.

It is worth adding that nothing is being built or demolished that might prevent access to MOSI being restored in the future.

Best (and festive) regards,
Slip

* That all said, I wouldn't rule it being included out in the final design

[newdoader]

Is there a halfway house though, without knowing to me the problem looks like one of differing levels and if they dropped the cord to accommodate a flat crossing what would be the gradient up to the link with the line to Piccadilly looks like it would be very steep.

[slipdigby]

Originally Posted by newdoader

Is there a halfway house though, without knowing to me the problem looks like one of differing levels and if they dropped the cord to accommodate a flat crossing what would be the gradient up to the link with the line to Piccadilly looks like it would be very steep.

Pertinent question, I'll ask a man after Christmas but I was under the impression that it was only a matter of feet for any MOSI link to climb (as opposed to the Chord to descend. A doable theoretical climb for even Lion to achieve (given a run up from the Steam hall yard)

Best,
Slip

[CHAPS2034]

As I posted a few weeks ago, I was informed by NR staff at the recent exhibitions on the Ordsall Chord that there is a solution

However it costs some £10m and is currently not funded, so someone would have to find the money.

In addition, because of the number of trains on the chord, the only paths into MOSI would be at night.

At that time NR were still talking to MOSI about it.

Cheers and seasons greetings

CW

[ill tonkso]

They could build the chord wide enough for another track so MOSI trains can head alongside the line to Victoria? They get a new - longer - route.

[Mwmbwls]

I am not sure that for most the MOSI experience will suffer following the building of the chord. MOSI does what it says in the accronym very well - a museum of science and industry in Manchester about Manchester. Into what is a very small site it packs a lot in about the key industries of the city region from coal and cotton to aviation with a very substantial section devoted to transport. Its railway hall is filled with examples of locomotives with a particlar connection to Manchester with a unique collection Beyer Peacocks of varying sizes and gauges - together with the makers archive down in the basement. In addition to this, the MSW locomotive and cab cut off represent an important step along the way in electrifying the railway. The current collection fills the space available and cannot be easily extended. The original station building is exceptionally well preserved and presents a valiable contextual aid for all of the the groups of children many of whom no longer ride on trains as a regular experience. All this learning would however be vastly diminished without a large dollop of fun and the museum has a range of interactive activities to keep and engage interest. The train ride is an integral part of this. Would this experience be seriously damaged by cutting the the link to the outside - I don't think so. It might be operationally a little more complex to operate and be a couple of minutes shorter but for the customers for whom it is designed it will still be a ride on train.
The engineering behind the chord is elegant in its appearance, ingenious in its protection and retention of historic features and reuse of the existing railway and of all the other options probably the most cost effective. I do not feel that the long term interests of MOS,I, in terms of customer experience will be damaged - indeed if they do receive compensation it would enable them to start thinking about what happens, or should that be what happened, next. There are new industries starting up in Manchester that need to be captured - this will inevitably be a need for more space - I wonder if they could take over elements of the Granada studios - both as a potential television exhibit and as further display halls for other industries before this area disappears into the foundations of buildings that could be built elsewhere in the city centre. We need a logical and solution here - a complete modern rail network for Manchester and a successful and expanded MOSI that continues to represent the whole range of science and industry - and not an either/or, that satisfies nobody.

I hope everybody has had a peaceful Christmas and I look forward to reading your future contributions in the New Year - of course we can't predict the future but in Manchester transport term I suspect it won't be dull. Cheers.

[hulmeman2]

Originally Posted by ill tonkso

They could build the chord wide enough for another track so MOSI trains can head alongside the line to Victoria? They get a new - longer - route.

Curve would be far too tight: