TRANSPORT | Piccadilly To Victoria Direct Rail Link | Ordsall Curve

[WatcherZero]

Yeah thats the main feature of the Northern Hub, there is some grade seperation of the Piccadilly bay approachs to help prevent those crossing moves as well.

[Joseph_Locke]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

Yeah thats the main feature of the Northern Hub, there is some grade seperation of the Piccadilly bay approachs to help prevent those crossing moves as well.

Ardwick flyover didn't make it I'm afraid, as Ordsall Chord does exactly what nerd suggests: Airport - Leeds -> services would go via the Chord and Victoria.

[WatcherZero]

The flyover itself for North to West services didnt, but isnt there still supposed to be some grade seperation on Pic approach to prevent crossing moves for Piccs bay platforms.

[Joseph_Locke]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

The flyover itself for North to West services didnt, but isnt there still supposed to be some grade seperation on Pic approach to prevent crossing moves for Piccs bay platforms.

A pound says there isn't (in the Northern Hub)?

[Gdogg371]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

The flyover itself for North to West services didnt, but isnt there still supposed to be some grade seperation on Pic approach to prevent crossing moves for Piccs bay platforms.

i havent kept up to date with this of late, but i would be amazed if it has survived. what is the construction cost going to run to? £100 million? in the current climate i cant see anyone approving a couple of hundred yards of track that costs that much to build outside of london.

i have touched on this on the thread i started about MCC taking on the responsibility for trying to fund more infrastructure projects, but i will briefly add here that if the money could be raised somehow seperately from central government, then surely releasing this massive choke point in the middle of the city altogether would have untold benefits for us as a region?

[madferret]

Originally Posted by Joseph_Locke

A pound says there isn't (in the Northern Hub)?

Yes, it presents it as an either/or between the Ardwick flyover or extra platforms + Ordsall curve. Sounds from the latest doc that NR are favouring the second option, which will bring more benefits overall as we get Victoria back as a main station and more flexibility on trans-Pennine routes (eg Airport to Bradford).

[Gdogg371]

Originally Posted by madferret

Yes, it presents it as an either/or between the Ardwick flyover or extra platforms + Ordsall curve. Sounds from the latest doc that NR are favouring the second option, which will bring more benefits overall as we get Victoria back as a main station and more flexibility on trans-Pennine routes (eg Airport to Bradford).

where is the funding coming from to reopen lines back into victoria and rebuild/expand the platforms at victoria, thereby avoiding a big traffic jam further up the line? is that part of the northern hub proposal?

[Isaac Newell]

Originally Posted by Gdogg371

where is the funding coming from to reopen lines back into victoria and rebuild/expand the platforms at victoria, thereby avoiding a big traffic jam further up the line? is that part of the northern hub proposal?

I suppose the idea is to terminate trains at Victoria that would normally terminate at Piccadilly, avoiding any need to cross over routes.

The lines under the MEN wouldn't be as dirty if only electric trains could terminate there.

[Owd Lanky]

I guess we will hopefully get some more detail in March.

As I understand it the current preferred option will reduce conflicts at the mouth of Piccadily (Leeds TPE via Victoria and Airport services via Oxford road instead of terminating) whilst platforms 15 & 16 will increase capacity through oxford road(to Deansgate).
However the new Leeds TPE-Airport services and the new Victoria-Airport services immediately take some of that additional oxford road capacity, and also add additional junction conflicts with Warrington, Liverpool and Salford Crescent services. The new Leeds - Liverpool TPE will also increase conflicts with Oxford Road to Salford Crescent services.

So the Ordsall curve (&15&16) may solve a number of problems, but it will also move bottlenecks around, possiblly to all the flat 2 track junctions around Ordsall. I hope NR modelling performs well.

And, of course, Governement will need to fund NR to perform any enhancements it decides are beneficial.

[ScouseinManc]

Originally Posted by Gdogg371

where is the funding coming from to reopen lines back into victoria and rebuild/expand the platforms at victoria, thereby avoiding a big traffic jam further up the line? is that part of the northern hub proposal?

The funding is to come from Network Rail. It was meant to be £30M, but I believe that the Government have withdrawn their £5M allocation.

However, I'm unsure as to whether this cash sum is purely for the cosmetic upgrade of the station itself, or whether is it also allocated for new platforms?

Does anyone know exactly how many additional platforms will be required? Can the old, buried platforms under the MEN be brought back into use, rather than having terminating services?

[Joseph_Locke]

Originally Posted by ScouseinManc

The funding is to come from Network Rail. It was meant to be £30M, but I believe that the Government have withdrawn their £5M allocation.

However, I'm unsure as to whether this cash sum is purely for the cosmetic upgrade of the station itself, or whether is it also allocated for new platforms?

Does anyone know exactly how many additional platforms will be required? Can the old, buried platforms under the MEN be brought back into use, rather than having terminating services?

The £30m (£25m) is "cosmetic", dragging the concourse and roof kicking and screaming into the 1970s.

If you cleared all the tunbacks out of the through platforms at Vic either onto bays or by making them through services, you wouldn't need more through platforms.

[madferret]

Originally Posted by Gdogg371

where is the funding coming from to reopen lines back into victoria and rebuild/expand the platforms at victoria, thereby avoiding a big traffic jam further up the line? is that part of the northern hub proposal?

Yes, northern hub. Last I read, funding won't be confirmed on that until 2013 with work starting end-2014.

There are 2 other schemes affecting Victoria as well, the Liverpool/Preston electrification and the general 'tarting up/retail' exercise that was funded then wasn't again. The first will happen; no idea what's going on with the second.

[WatcherZero]

Its going ahead, over half funded by Network Rail but with a contribution from GMITA and from MCC.

[jrb]

£85m train link between Piccadilly and Victoria stations set for go ahead

Manchester's two main train stations are set to be joined by an £85m direct train link.
The MEN understands Piccadilly and Victoria could be linked by a new section of track as part of a plan to slash journey times and boost economic growth.
Chancellor George Osborne is tipped to back plans for a curved section of track at Ordsall in Salford in his budget speech tomorrow.
It comes more than 30 years after a proposed underground link between the two stations - the so-called 'Picc-Vic line' - was abandoned because of costs.
The move would help uncork a massive bottleneck on the rail network around Manchester, known as the Northern Hub.
Sources say it will cut journey times between Manchester and Leeds by 14 minutes. Average journey times in the region will be cut by 30 minutes.
The link could open in 2016. It is understood the project will be funded through savings made by the Department for Transport.
The rail network around Manchester is already heavily congested and is tipped to deal with an extra 3.5m passengers a year.
There is too little track space and a lack of places for faster trains to overtake slower services. Tangled lines at junctions and on the approach to stations also cause delays.
But rail travel in Greater Manchester has jumped 82 per cent over the last decade and a report by rail bosses last year said investment in the hub was now vital for future economic prosperity of the north.
Network Rail's blueprint for the hub said £530m needed to be spent on a range of improvements - including the Ordsall curve - that it said would help provide an extra 700 train services through the region each day.
It said millions could also be spent on restoring Victoria to its former glory, building two new through platforms at Piccadilly and another one at Manchester airport under its plan to boost passenger and freight services to towns across Greater Manchester and beyond.
Transport secretary Philip Hammond is set to make a decision on the full Network Rail proposals in July next year.
Greater Manchester's transport chiefs are likely to welcome the expected announcement. They have been lobbying hard for investment in the region's rail network.
Coun Keith Whitmore, GMITA's vice-chairman, hailed Network Rail's plans last year as “of huge economic benefit”.
Mr Osborne announced his backing for the £200m electrification of rail lines in the north west in his spending review last October.
But the MEN told in November how Greater Manchester will get just a handful of extra carriages promised by the government to ease chronic overcrowding on the nation's railways.
The entire north of England has been earmarked to get just 100 of the 1,850 carriages that will be added to the network between now and 2019.
The government withdrew £5m that was due to go towards the revamp of Victoria station in spending cuts last year.
Business leaders were told by Transport Minister Theresa Villiers earlier this week a new high-speed rail network would provide jobs and prosperity for Manchester and the North West.
She warned that not introducing the government's plans for 250mph bullet trains to cut journey times between Manchester and London would increase the north-south divide.

ps. Perhaps I should have posted it in one of the other threads, but I got a little excited.

[Chogmook]

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...42401&page=107

[jrb]

Originally Posted by Chogmook

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...42401&page=107

Chogs on the ball. Will need it's own consruction thread eventually.

[Isaac Newell]

Manchester Overground.

Good news, just keep those freight trains off it.

[Gdogg371]

there is a thread called 'the castlefield curve' buried in the bowels of this forum somewhere. exciting news, but im not sure some of the histrorical aspects of the story are true. my understanding was that the project was budgeted at £10 million in the mid 1970s and was approved by parliament. funding was eventually withdrawn because some of our own local MPs were against the idea of it being built for some insane reason.

going slightly off at a tangent (and not wishing to reignite an old argument) but the belief that london gets so much in the way of infrastructure investments because the government knows it will see a return on it is slowly starting to happen in manchester.

whilst not to the same scale as london, as our local economy continues to grow against a backdrop of depression elsewhere, central government is slowly starting to come around to the idea that infrastructure investment in manchester will reap rewards, not drain coffers.

hopefully a chain reaction will ignite where a formula of more investment in greater manchester = guaranteed return becomes accepted from the government and they are willing to put up more money, more often as there is a proven business case for it...

...just my thoughts anyway.

[skit_uk]

Fantastic news. Expensive for such a small section although there is a ringroad river and canal to be negotiated with various different levels in terrain. However theres nothing much of interest in the curve location other than the once proposed restored canal side residential schemes (forget the name of this development, other than Fusion being the first part of it).
Will have minimal impact on local residents and businesses.

I tried to embed a google map of the area but cant figure it out, however heres a link.
Click Me

One thing i was supprised about was this

The entire north of England has been earmarked to get just 100 of the 1,850 carriages that will be added to the network between now and 2019.

I know the south east is extremely overcrowded, but still

[TheGrand]

Originally Posted by Gdogg371

there is a thread called 'the castlefield curve' buried in the bowels of this forum somewhere. .

I've registered the name for trademark purposes and will sell, this could be my ticket out of here

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...ht=castlefield