TRANSPORT | Piccadilly To Victoria Direct Rail Link | Ordsall Curve

[Joseph_Locke]

Originally Posted by drdave

But that would leave no expresses from Warrington Central wouldn't it? Or am I being dumb?

oooh....

LLS - Allerton - Widnes - Warrington Central - Birchwood - Piccadilly is pretty express isn't it?

[Priscilla QOTD]

Originally Posted by Gdogg371

opinions: everybody wants one, few are willing to do the research to deserve one. especially those people who post comments on the m.e.n website.

Are you responsible for this?

but why dont people just walk from piccadilly to victoria and stop being lazy? ; )

[Joseph_Locke]

I have to say the depth of understanding of Manchester's public transport issues on that MEN story is truly breathtaking (leaving aside the moron posting the same thing ten times).

The problem the Chord solves (Ardwick) is the same problem you'd have if you had a mini roundabout where two motorways cross.

Still, as a respected, senior, ex-colleague says; "You can talk to a man with wooden leg, but not one with a wooden head".

[drdave]

Originally Posted by Joseph_Locke

oooh....

LLS - Allerton - Widnes - Warrington Central - Birchwood - Piccadilly is pretty express isn't it?

I wasn't having a pop. I genuinely didn't see where the expresses were coming from. Either way Warrington still looses out for the benefit of Manchester as there will be less trains.

[Gdogg371]

Originally Posted by Priscilla QOTD

Are you responsible for this?

that just about sums up the mentality of m.e.n. readers.

[madferret]

Originally Posted by Gdogg371

castlefield junction is the junction of the clc line and the line that heads towards chat moss (located just off deansgate). are you sure that was definitely freight only pre windsor link? are passenger services to liverpool via chat moss a recent addition to the timetable?

Can't find anything definitive on t'internet but I am pretty sure all the Chat Moss trains went to Victoria in the 80s (the Windsor link opened in 1989, though this was of course for trains from Bolton/Wigan).

the thread title 'castlefield curve' is geographically inaccurate as the location in question is on the salford side of the irwell, however there are a few pages of discussion on the subject in there, which is why i mentioned it.

Found the old thread (well not that old, last post in Jan) - fascinating reading some of the speculation in the first couple of pages, some of which is now happening and some that never will.

[Val Verde]

Speaking as someone from the otherside of the Pennines the creation of the Manchester Hub is certainly a move I would strongly support considering the reduction of journey times and additional services.

Would the creation of a new curve between Salford Central and Deansgate stations (thus allowing for a direct rail link between Victoria and Piccadilly stations) see Leeds - Manchester Airport services call at Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester Victoria - Salford Central - Manchester Deansgate - Manchester Oxford Road - Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport to avoid reversal at Piccadilly station? Are there any indicative timetables / list of services which could result from the Manchester Hub works?

Im guessing the creation of the Manchester Hub and electrification of the Manchester - Liverpool line would of course potentially open the door a few years down the line for electrification of the Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds - York line and possibly also the Manchester - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds line.

[WatcherZero]

Yes they would operate in that direction however theirs no guarentee they would stop at all central manchester stations (some services might skip Deansgate or Salford Central, etc). As to electrification I dont believe it brings it any closer really and I personally would favour a new transpennine crossing built from scratch if they wanted to really revoloutinize services, but that would be a long way off.

Theres indicative services in the Manchester Hub/Northern Hub documents on the Network Rail website.

[jrb]

Place North West.

BUDGET 2011: Piccadilly-Victoria rail link funding approved23 Mar 2011, 15:51

Linking the two Manchester stations could be the biggest key to unlocking the growth of the region of any measure in the Budget, according to Ruairidh Jackson, head of planning and property strategy at the Co-operative Group.
Jackson, speaking at a Budget event held at Manchester Business School and co-hosted by Pro Manchester, said the growth potential coming from the rail line was phenomenal. The chord is part of the Northern Hub plan to increase capacity in the region, especially between Manchester and Leeds.
The Chancellor announced that £85m has been allocated towards the Ordsall Chord. This would allow for new connectivity for local and intercity services across Greater Manchester, potentially also linking via Salford Central and Oxford Road.
Other transport projects confirmed in the Budget included the Thornton to Switch Island Link - £14.5m for a new single carriageway road which will take traffic away from communities in Sefton and the Heysham to M6 Link Road - £110.9m for a bypass to the north of Lancaster, connecting Heysham to the M6.
The Government confirmed the previously announced £900m of rail electrification projects on lines between Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and Blackpool. This will be completed by 2018.
Greater Manchester Integrated Transport Authority welcomed the Ordsall Chord announcement as a first step towards the Northern Hub, a proposed programme of improvements to rail capacity and infrastructure around Greater Manchester that would benefit the north as a whole.
Cllr Ian Macdonald, chairman of GMITA, said: "Coming earlier than expected, this is excellent news for Greater Manchester - and for the wider north, as building the Ordsall Chord would mean faster journeys from Leeds, Liverpool, Bradford and Newcastle, would improve rail access to the Airport, and potentially provide better local connections to Manchester and Salford.
"The new line, which would be built mainly on brownfield land, would also take advantage of plans to improve Victoria and regenerate the area around it, as well as wider redevelopment in Salford and Manchester.
"It's extremely encouraging to see an early commitment from the government to the Northern Hub, something we've been working towards along with Network Rail for the past three years."

[jrb]

Property Week.

The Plan for Growth, which was published today alongside the Budget, pledged £200m funding for rail projects, with a central Manchester rail link set to be the first to benefit.


Ordsall Chord, providing a link between Manchester Victoria and Manchester Piccadilly stations, is expected to provide reductions in journey times between Leeds and Liverpool.

Victoria Station is next to the The Co-Operative Group’s NOMA site and will link the regeneration site to more UK destinations. Ruairidh Jackson, head of planning and property strategy at The Co-Op, said: “Whether you’re coming from Leeds, London or the airport, you will be able to use a green transport link to the heart of the NOMA site.

“NOMA will firmly position Manchester as key choice for business in the UK, building on existing clusters of global head offices, media enterprises, professional and financial services already in the City and today’s announcement will be a further draw.

NOMA will be integrated into the existing transport network, with tram, rail, bus and road connections all immediately adjacent to the site. It will be developed over a 10 – 15 year period with phase one of the project, The Co-operative Group’s new Head Office, due for completion in September 2012.

[cle]

Originally Posted by drdave

I wasn't having a pop. I genuinely didn't see where the expresses were coming from. Either way Warrington still looses out for the benefit of Manchester as there will be less trains.

I just posted something similar on the non-metrolink thread which is also on this topic, wihtout seeing this thread.

I guess Warrington would still have the Liverpool - Norwich, but I would expect the Liverpool - Leeds (Scarborough currently?) to run via Chat Moss.

Hopefully you will keep your North Wales service from BQ to Piccadilly, which would be diesel still. The only other thing to maybe hope for might be some new electric services up the WCML which ran from Warrington BQ east towards Manchester?

And I imagine an increase in frequency in slow trains, maybe with skip stopping (with LS Parkway, Widnes and Birchwood, there are a lot of semi-fast shacks to choose from) - the journey times wouldn't be that bad.

[heatonparkincakes]

I am going for a least speculative line of thought here and just working in my guestimates of the hub being exactly that. A hub between north (Scotland, Blackpool, Blackburn) - south (Cardiff, Birmingham, Derby) and of course east (Yorkshire, Nottingham) and the west (Cymru and Liverpool).

I can see electric Chat Moss for fast, diesel Warrington for the rest.
I can see Manchester being re-enforced as the main northern Metropolis thanks to this.
I can Electrification being enormously successful and enhancing Wigan's position.

What would be more curious would be if the Knutsford-Manchester Airport link was built. That would be in effect a new south and Liverpool bound passage. That would change things around.

[drdave]

Originally Posted by cle

I just posted something similar on the non-metrolink thread which is also on this topic, wihtout seeing this thread.

I guess Warrington would still have the Liverpool - Norwich, but I would expect the Liverpool - Leeds (Scarborough currently?) to run via Chat Moss.

Hopefully you will keep your North Wales service from BQ to Piccadilly, which would be diesel still. The only other thing to maybe hope for might be some new electric services up the WCML which ran from Warrington BQ east towards Manchester?

And I imagine an increase in frequency in slow trains, maybe with skip stopping (with LS Parkway, Widnes and Birchwood, there are a lot of semi-fast shacks to choose from) - the journey times wouldn't be that bad.

At the moment though we have an express every 30 mins from Central, which would change to an hour, plus we would loose trains to Leeds and the east. Using Bank Quay is a pest because it is on the edge of the town centre and miles from the interchange (bus station). Also if you saw Central station in a morning and how some people miss the trains because they just cant fit in them, you would see we can ill afford to loose services.

[nerd]

So, assuming we have the Ordsall Chord funded

.. but not as yet the two extra platforms at Piccadilly;

how much of the Northern Hub improvements can go ahead?

for example, does this mean that Airport Shuttle trains will now be able to terminate at Victoria?

[heatonparkincakes]

Note to mods.

Does this thread need to be included in the Non Metrolink thread. Perhaps restored in a new form in Project and Construction when plans and work is announced?

Views Forumistas?

[CharlieP]

Pardon my ignorance of the topography of the network around Manchester, but what benefits will this link add? I've heard "Liverpool to Leeds" mentioned, but surely that journey already exists via either Piccadilly or Victoria, and "doubling back" to go through both is just going to add to journey times? The only way I can see it being of use is for strange route options like Bradford-Victoria-Piccadilly-Sheffield.

I'm not being cynical, and I'm all for rail improvements, I just don't understand this one.

[WatcherZero]

On a busy railway one of the main capacity constraints is trains having to cross the path of others (Imagine an X junction on a road). Removing these conflicting movements e.g. by building a 'overpass' means less time stuck at signals, faster services (less slowing down, stopping then acclerating back to speed again) and more trains can be run on the freed up track.

[madferret]

Originally Posted by CharlieP

Pardon my ignorance of the topography of the network around Manchester, but what benefits will this link add? I've heard "Liverpool to Leeds" mentioned, but surely that journey already exists via either Piccadilly or Victoria, and "doubling back" to go through both is just going to add to journey times?

There won't be doubling back on Liverpool-Leeds services. They will go via Victoria instead of Piccadilly, reducing conflicts in train movements at Picc (see WatcherZero's post above). Other transpennine trains will be able to go through Victoria then round to Piccadilly and Manchester Airport, saving the reversing that they currently have to do.

One of the extra proposals in the Northern Hub scheme is a flyover outside Piccadilly station to allow trains access to the through line without getting in the way of other traffic but that isn't part of this current scheme.

[cle]

Originally Posted by drdave

At the moment though we have an express every 30 mins from Central, which would change to an hour, plus we would loose trains to Leeds and the east. Using Bank Quay is a pest because it is on the edge of the town centre and miles from the interchange (bus station). Also if you saw Central station in a morning and how some people miss the trains because they just cant fit in them, you would see we can ill afford to loose services.

You might get some further fast shuttles to Oxford Road? I'm not sure - I don't think anyone knows yet?

nerd So, assuming we have the Ordsall Chord funded

.. but not as yet the two extra platforms at Piccadilly;

how much of the Northern Hub improvements can go ahead?

for example, does this mean that Airport Shuttle trains will now be able to terminate at Victoria?

I asked the same thing on another forum. The amount announced in the budget was £200m - £85m for Ordsall and Swindon/Kemble is £45-55m - which leaves £60-70m left announced for the railways. I'm not sure what this money is for?

[SOMtastic]

Perhaps someone can enlighten me :
There has been much talk on here of congestion around the throat of Picc.
Ordsal curve discussions aside - there has also been talk of some sort of flyover arrangement to allow trains to get from one side to the other.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t pretty much the entire approach to picc elevated ?? ie on a huge viaduct ?
Would it therefore not be simpler to go under - through one of the arches - rather than over ?
.. Or are we talking about further out when it gets onto tera ferma ?