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Old May 17th, 2017, 10:49 AM   #1181
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The GM Building is among the ugliest prominent monsters of the city imho.
Now with 432 Park Ave in its neighborhood, which is just as awful or even worse for its sore thumb appearance.
Central Park needs to be cleaned from such boxy mess. A park like CP calls for "organic", classical architecture.
Um, yeah, just build more of this Dubai nonsense, that's how you make a city more organic by degrading the fact that modern contemporary architecture exists. I won't even dare to comment on the rest of your post.
Explain, cleaned?!
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Old May 18th, 2017, 06:16 PM   #1182
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Dubai nonsense? Wth are you talking about?

There's a thin line between kitsch and grandeur. I'm all for quality contemporary architecture, as highlighted at The Flatbush or Steinway Tower, on the other range Tower Verre is great as well. All these are organically adapting to the cityscape. Plain boxes are just brutally cutting it into pieces.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:01 PM   #1183
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Dubai nonsense?
Yes, Dubai nonsense.
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Wth are you talking about?
Dubai nonsense.
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Plain boxes are just brutally cutting it into pieces.
It is not my fault that you can't see the beauty in the XYZ buildings and how well they are integrated with New York's cityscape.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:20 PM   #1184
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There isn't much organic about 220 CPS. Stern did better with 30 Park Place, Stern is in the process of doing better with 520 Park Ave, this one however he seems to have designed with a bad hangover. A forced generic Stern design with no ambition to be anything better.

What Central Park certainly will never need is the copying and pasting of historical buildings that erbse aggressively advertises in every thread he posts in. A nice retro design like 520 Park Ave is always welcome, a complete descent into almost dystopian copied and pasted monotony however will kill all the flair the area has.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:32 PM   #1185
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I agree 100%. What makes NYC unique is itīs wild and diverse collection of styles. That should continue. And buildings like the Steinway and CPT will surely add to this grace of mixed styles.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:40 PM   #1186
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what makes NYC unique is it's large quantity of high quality historic skyscrapers and incredible urbanism. These generic glass and concrete boxes don't add to NYCs character or diversity, they destroy it. Any city anywhere has those. New buildings should either seek to actually be interesting and nice to look at without blemishing the existing cityscape or they should try to fit in with it through historical revival architecture or contempoary architecture following classical guidelines. Nothing "copy & paste" about that
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Old May 18th, 2017, 10:08 PM   #1187
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Tacking "Nothing "copy & paste" about that" at the end of your post doesn't just magically change that you advocate just that - the final statement just contradicts your original statement without anything backing up the contradiction.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 12:52 AM   #1188
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Ok. I advocate "copy and pasting" older styles like Art Deco because I believe they are more beautiful, more timeless and are better at creating urban spaces and environments.

Following the same logic, you want to copy and paste modernist and post-modernist styles. What makes the 1950s such an important barrier that it can't be broken? Why is building a glass and concrete box that could also have been built in the 1970s for example cool and retro while building a beautifully proportioned, somewhat ornate building with a high quality limestone facade and strong vertical lines a "pastiche", "dubai nonsense", or "copy and paste"? It's just a mental thing. History is full of architectural revivals of many styles, each one adding their own twist. I wouldn't call any of them "copy and pasty" and even if they were, they archived exactly what they were ment to archieve: create quality architecture.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 12:46 PM   #1189
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Ok. I advocate "copy and pasting" older styles like Art Deco because I believe they are more beautiful, more timeless and are better at creating urban spaces and environments.
No, you don't advocate that, what you advocate is buildings that try to look like Art Deco, but fail on lots of aspects to do so. That is because most of you can't understand the industrial vibes that Art Deco was willing to archive, you strongly believe it is a style that has nothing to do with modernism and progress, because what you see is lots of decorations without paying any attention on what those decorations symbolize, but thankfully I'm willing to en-light you and here's what some of them symbolize: electricity, the growing industry, the growing economy, or the Roaring Twenties as a whole.
Pay attention to all that geometry on the original buildings and artworks then maybe you'll realize that the style was most certainly a predecessor of the latter modernism as we know it.

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Following the same logic, you want to copy and paste modernist and post-modernist styles. What makes the 1950s such an important barrier that it can't be broken?
Hm, I've read the posts on this page twice and I can't see anyone doing such thing as advocating copy and paste modernist, or even post-modernist styles. Obviously you can't accept the fact that we criticize a building which we believe should look more genuine, we are certainly not criticizing the style. Following your logic, what makes the 30's such an important barrier so that the world of architecture should stop there? Architecture is all about evolving and even if I can't find myself liking some styles I certainly understand them, for example the postmodernism.

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Why is building a glass and concrete box that could also have been built in the 1970s for example cool and retro while building a beautifully proportioned, somewhat ornate building with a high quality limestone facade and strong vertical lines a "pastiche", "dubai nonsense", or "copy and paste"?
Well, even I can't explain this to you, because obviously you can't make a nice distinction between a quality revival, and pastiche as you call it. But here's a question, why does this revivals to you, but pastiche to me, buildings look all the same, for example why do they use the same color of the 'limestone' (or precast), why don't they start using terracotta instead, in lots of high contrasting, but mostly dark and industrial colors? After all it's not that expensive as a material.

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It's just a mental thing. History is full of architectural revivals of many styles, each one adding their own twist. I wouldn't call any of them "copy and pasty" and even if they were, they archived exactly what they were ment to archieve: create quality architecture.
Define quality.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 06:35 AM   #1190
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20170517_142759 by Matt Barnes, on Flickr
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Old May 21st, 2017, 07:33 AM   #1191
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Old May 21st, 2017, 06:11 PM   #1192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Dubai nonsense? Wth are you talking about?

There's a thin line between kitsch and grandeur. I'm all for quality contemporary architecture, as highlighted at The Flatbush or Steinway Tower, on the other range Tower Verre is great as well. All these are organically adapting to the cityscape. Plain boxes are just brutally cutting it into pieces.

NYC is not an architectural exhibition for skyscraper fanboys, it's a living, breathing city and coincidentally a global financial and business capital.
Without that, without the huge boxy office towers with enormous floor plates, your darling über luxury spires for the wealthy wouldn't be here either.
Bashing office buildings and citing skinny supertall residential towers as the positive architectural example makes absolutely zero sense.
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Old May 21st, 2017, 06:34 PM   #1193
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I apologize for taking so long with my reply.

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Originally Posted by Architecture lover View Post
No, you don't advocate that, what you advocate is buildings that try to look like Art Deco, but fail on lots of aspects to do so. That is because most of you can't understand the industrial vibes that Art Deco was willing to archive, you strongly believe it is a style that has nothing to do with modernism and progress, because what you see is lots of decorations without paying any attention on what those decorations symbolize, but thankfully I'm willing to en-light you and here's what some of them symbolize: electricity, the growing industry, the growing economy, or the Roaring Twenties as a whole.
Pay attention to all that geometry on the original buildings and artworks then maybe you'll realize that the style was most certainly a predecessor of the latter modernism as we know it.
You got it all wrong. I'm aware that this building isn't "original" Art Deco. I think it would have been a lot better if it was more true to the style it's trying to imitate. I believe the top worked out the best while the rest of the building is basically a stick. I very much dislike how the building was designed with these 'fake windows' on one side because of how the core is part of the exterior wall. However, I think there is no actual harm to this building. For me, it's a step in the right direction. It blends in well with the cityscape, despite its height, which can almost completely be attributed to the facade material and the top IMO. Sometimes that's all it takes to not be an eyesore. If it was a glass or concrete box, it would not at all fit in that well.

I don't know what you trying to archieve with your rant about Art Deco. Do you think I dislike modernism because I dislike industry or progress? I don't really care about how a certain style came to be or what it was trying to represent, I care about if it looks good or not. I'm aware that Art Deco is a predecessor to modernism and I quite dislike some more modern Art Deco buildings that were essentially already modernist if it wasn't for their time, scale and windows. I would have loved if Art Deco was the midcentury style to represent modernity and progress, unfortunately that didn't happen


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Hm, I've read the posts on this page twice and I can't see anyone doing such thing as advocating copy and paste modernist, or even post-modernist styles. Obviously you can't accept the fact that we criticize a building which we believe should look more genuine, we are certainly not criticizing the style.

All styles that are percieved as "modern" today are by definition post-modernist styles, I don't mean the postmodern style (80s-00s) with that. Many people love boxes (like 432 park ave) that are essentially modernist and would like more buildings like that. Whether they realize what that style is called is a different story.

You are also mistaken in believing that I have a problem with you wanting to have this building look more genuine, I'm with you on that. I just differ in that I think this building looks generally okay, is a step in the right direction and will fit in well, instead of foaming and ranting about it.


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Following your logic, what makes the 30's such an important barrier so that the world of architecture should stop there? Architecture is all about evolving and even if I can't find myself liking some styles I certainly understand them, for example the postmodernism.
I don't think architecture should stop in the 30s, I believe we should learn from the 20s/50s-70s and never repeat that dark age of architecture. I also believe that we should return to the pre-modernist urban planning models, as they created better urban spaces than almost anything since.

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Well, even I can't explain this to you, because obviously you can't make a nice distinction between a quality revival, and pastiche as you call it. But here's a question, why does this revivals to you, but pastiche to me, buildings look all the same, for example why do they use the same color of the 'limestone' (or precast), why don't they start using terracotta instead, in lots of high contrasting, but mostly dark and industrial colors? After all it's not that expensive as a material.
In this case I'd say "it's the thought that counts". This building in particular isn't exactly proper Art Deco in most respects, however there are buildings that do it right (like the Fitzroy). This bulding represents to me more of a return of interest towards (IMO) better styles than it represents an highly valuable architectural (if still alright) building. If society demands for more buildings of classical styles, then eventually, it's going to get them and I hope the average quality increases as it goes. I would love for them to use more varying materials but I disagree with your statement that Art Deco was mostly "dark".

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Define quality.
How about this as an intermediate goal in quality?

Source: fitzroy.nyc
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Old May 21st, 2017, 08:27 PM   #1194
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I apologize for taking so long with my reply.
No worries.

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For me, it's a step in the right direction. It blends in well with the cityscape, despite its height, which can almost completely be attributed to the facade material and the top IMO. Sometimes that's all it takes to not be an eyesore. If it was a glass or concrete box, it would not at all fit in that well.
I disagree, for me it is not a step in the right direction, one should start revivals with lots of care and respect, with hugely massive understanding of what they represented. Only that's the way for a revival to be genuine and worth of respect and admiration, for me everything else qualifies as faux. I think one should not make too many of these steps, because sooner or later the genuine marvels will be hidden in-between precast.

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I don't know what you trying to archieve with your rant about Art Deco. Do you think I dislike modernism because I dislike industry or progress? I don't really care about how a certain style came to be or what it was trying to represent, I care about if it looks good or not.
And here we disagree again, and here's why: the fact that you don't care how one architectural style became part of the urban fabric makes it difficult for you to understand its fundamental aspects. I think in such situation no one should even try to make a revival of such style, because he/she just doesn't have the knowledge that's needed.

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Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
I'm aware that Art Deco is a predecessor to modernism and I quite dislike some more modern Art Deco buildings that were essentially already modernist if it wasn't for their time, scale and windows. I would have loved if Art Deco was the midcentury style to represent modernity and progress, unfortunately that didn't happen.
What's the difference of Art Deco happening in the 50's, and Art Deco happening in the 20' to 30's? Mid-century modern (the actual style around the 50's) is already an architectural fact. I can't help you with that, there is so many of us who just adore that style.

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All styles that are percieved as "modern" today are by definition post-modernist styles, I don't mean the postmodern style (80s-00s) with that. Many people love boxes (like 432 park ave) that are essentially modernist and would like more buildings like that. Whether they realize what that style is called is a different story.
This is so true, and I hope that future professionals from this field will coin a better term for post-modernism, because not every style that emerged at the end of the 20th, or the beginning of 21st century should be incorporated in such huge branch called Post-modernism. Remember at its time Art Deco was called Art Moderne, or simply Modernistic, it was only decades later that the the new (and now accepted) term was coined.

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I don't think architecture should stop in the 30s, I believe we should learn from the 20s/50s-70s and never repeat that dark age of architecture. I also believe that we should return to the pre-modernist urban planning models, as they created better urban spaces than almost anything since.
I don't have anything to say about this, we simply disagree.

Quote:
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I would love for them to use more varying materials but I disagree with your statement that Art Deco was mostly "dark".
The use of highly contrasted (dark) materials was common, that doesn't make the style itself 'dark', but certainly powerful.

Quote:
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How about this as an intermediate goal in quality?
We finally agree on something, I adore the Fitzroy and its quality, I've prized it so many times over the forums. Notice the contrasting colors.
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Old May 21st, 2017, 08:37 PM   #1195
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NYC is not an architectural exhibition for skyscraper fanboys, it's a living, breathing city and coincidentally a global financial and business capital.
Without that, without the huge boxy office towers with enormous floor plates, your darling über luxury spires for the wealthy wouldn't be here either.
Bashing office buildings and citing skinny supertall residential towers as the positive architectural example makes absolutely zero sense.
Another real life issue is that many "modern boxes" were originally designed much better (RIP original 3WTC design), but fell victim to the infamous value-engineering. Imagine with an art deco revival... You'd go to an even further extreme, with architects first showing the most amazing designs in the initial renders, and after the first twenty to thirty revisions to cut costs you end up with one dumbed down 30 Park Place after another.
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Old May 22nd, 2017, 09:47 PM   #1196
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8 May 2017


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Old May 25th, 2017, 01:18 AM   #1197
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Old May 28th, 2017, 11:08 PM   #1198
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Old May 29th, 2017, 06:17 PM   #1199
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Nice to see the crown without the form works or netting. Looks good.
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Old May 31st, 2017, 07:52 AM   #1200
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It looks pretty huge and slim in that shot, let alone when itīs done and the elevator and crane are gone.
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