daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > North American Skyscrapers Forum > Metropolis & States > Toronto > Transit & Infrastructure



Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 2nd, 2011, 06:04 PM   #41
allurban
All Urban
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 4,421
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by dime View Post
@allurban: if you built it they will come

the people east of yonge already have the sheppard line and the Scarborough line
while the people on the west side are 20 years behind

i like the eglinton line because later they can extent it through Mississauga
They will come but only if they are allowed to by the city's local plan - and do you think all the existing residents are going to be so happy about high density development coming to their neighbourhoods along with the subway?

Let's face it, go east or west Yonge along Sheppard and you have small offices & single family dwellings - on the east side density does not start to appear until you get past Willowdale and on the way to Bayview. Then the density starts to drop around Leslie and pick up strongly at Don Mills.

That's why they are building Eglinton-Crosstown as LRT - there is no way that a subway is going to run along Eglinton all the way to the Airport without some major protests from the area residents - nor are they going to accept the kind of development that is happening along Sheppard East (in spots).

And there's no way the city can afford to build Eglinton underground through Etobicoke.

I do hope they add another "Rocket" route from Black Creek to the Airport - I'd definitely prefer to take that over the Malton route.

By the way, there's still no explanation for the VCC extension.

Cheers, m
__________________
Follow TRANSIT - the Association for the Improvement of Mass-Transit

w. http://transitmy.org
e. klangvalley.transit@gmail.com
tw. http://twitter.com/transitmy
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/TRANSI...12392362108880
allurban no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old April 2nd, 2011, 06:07 PM   #42
allurban
All Urban
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 4,421
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
A CLRV or ALRV is capable of 110 km/hr (a governor limits this to 80km/hr), and can accelerate at 1.47 m/sē (full speed in 18.89 seconds). It's no slouch. Ever had a ride on the 501 along that stretch of Queensway when the driver decides to haul ass? It puts a smile on your face.

I don't think the average speeds between stops on the Eglinton line are high enough to worry about what vehicle is used...they are all capable of the necessary speed.
I'd love to see a "race" filmed along the Queensway corridor.
  • First, a 'average' midsized car, Streetcar (CLRV) and GO Train, fully stopped, then accelerating as quickly as possible, followed by
  • the same car, Streetcar and GO Train passing through the corridor at cruising speeds.
Guess which vehicle would probably win both times?

Cheers, m
__________________
Follow TRANSIT - the Association for the Improvement of Mass-Transit

w. http://transitmy.org
e. klangvalley.transit@gmail.com
tw. http://twitter.com/transitmy
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/TRANSI...12392362108880
allurban no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2011, 02:00 PM   #43
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,701
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by allurban View Post
I'd love to see a "race" filmed along the Queensway corridor.
  • First, a 'average' midsized car, Streetcar (CLRV) and GO Train, fully stopped, then accelerating as quickly as possible, followed by
  • the same car, Streetcar and GO Train passing through the corridor at cruising speeds.
Guess which vehicle would probably win both times?

Cheers, m
Add a PCC too the race. Those 'cars could toss you if you're weren't ready.
__________________
The more valuable you perceive your time as worth, the less valuable it actually is.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2011, 07:22 AM   #44
allurban
All Urban
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 4,421
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Add a PCC too the race. Those 'cars could toss you if you're weren't ready.
That would be amazing fun. As I recall, PCCs had amazing acceleration (hence the 'red rocket' nickname) while the CLRVs have modest acceleration but solid top end speed & stability

Cheers, m
__________________
Follow TRANSIT - the Association for the Improvement of Mass-Transit

w. http://transitmy.org
e. klangvalley.transit@gmail.com
tw. http://twitter.com/transitmy
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/TRANSI...12392362108880
allurban no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2011, 04:48 AM   #45
Kensingtonian
Registered User
 
Kensingtonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,142
Likes (Received): 36

so looks like this thing is actually going to happen huh? Construction of the launch shaft has started. McGuinty is still premier, so no Harris-style cancellation.
Kensingtonian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2011, 05:26 AM   #46
DanfromTO
Rocking in the free world
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto/Halifax
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 0

mui bueno
DanfromTO no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 05:11 AM   #47
Innsertnamehere
insertoronto
 
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,952
Likes (Received): 138

Still don't get why this isn't a subway line.
Innsertnamehere está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 05:41 AM   #48
Diesel_Power
Registered User
 
Diesel_Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 555
Likes (Received): 15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Still don't get why this isn't a subway line.
Aren't they making the tunnels big enough so they can be upgraded to subways in the future?
Diesel_Power no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 03:21 PM   #49
icemachine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Richmond Hill
Posts: 630
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Still don't get why this isn't a subway line.
Because it won't have the demand of a subway, and hopefully after Rob Ford is defeated in 2014 the outer ends can be converted to surface running rather than tunneled.
icemachine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 03:23 PM   #50
Filip
Torontonian 4ever
 
Filip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,886
Likes (Received): 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by icemachine View Post
Because it won't have the demand of a subway, and hopefully after Rob Ford is defeated in 2014 the outer ends can be converted to surface running rather than tunneled.
Have you seen Metrolinx's ridership projections? They're approaching subway-acceptable levels. It's common knowledge that the TTC seriously underestimated the ridership on the Eglinton line. Of course, I expected nothing more disingenuous from Miller and his lapdog Giambrone.
Filip no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 03:26 PM   #51
icemachine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Richmond Hill
Posts: 630
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filip View Post
Have you seen Metrolinx's ridership projections? They're approaching subway-acceptable levels. It's common knowledge that the TTC seriously underestimated the ridership on the Eglinton line. Of course, I expected nothing more disingenuous from Miller and his lapdog Giambrone.
It only approaches subway levels now because of the through routing of the rebuilt SRT. If they ever do build the DRL it will instantly drop back to a level that would not require anything more than LRT for the foreseeable future.
icemachine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 03:30 PM   #52
Filip
Torontonian 4ever
 
Filip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,886
Likes (Received): 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by icemachine View Post
It only approaches subway levels now because of the through routing of the rebuilt SRT. If they ever do build the DRL it will instantly drop back to a level that would not require anything more than LRT for the foreseeable future.
The DRL will also contribute to the fall of the BD line - should we revert to LRT for that too?

Ridership and patterns change over the life of a transit line. I'm sure that even with a DRL the Eglinton line would hold its own; being the transfer point between north and south bus lines for example. However, in its current frankenstein state, the Eglinton underground LRT (more expensive than a regular subway ps) is plain wonky.
Filip no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 06:08 PM   #53
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,701
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filip View Post
Have you seen Metrolinx's ridership projections? They're approaching subway-acceptable levels. It's common knowledge that the TTC seriously underestimated the ridership on the Eglinton line. Of course, I expected nothing more disingenuous from Miller and his lapdog Giambrone.
12,000pph is not subway acceptable levels. Acceptable for LRT, not subway. And it's common knowledge that Metrolinx does not explain how they get to their numbers, so we'll never the rationale behind this claim. It DOES sound good when justifying spending $8 Billion to bury a line in an area with more than enough space for a surface line.

The TTC did not severely underestimate the ridership, metrolinx gave us a a number without showing how they got to that number.
__________________
The more valuable you perceive your time as worth, the less valuable it actually is.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 06:45 PM   #54
Filip
Torontonian 4ever
 
Filip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,886
Likes (Received): 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
12,000pph is not subway acceptable levels. Acceptable for LRT, not subway. And it's common knowledge that Metrolinx does not explain how they get to their numbers, so we'll never the rationale behind this claim. It DOES sound good when justifying spending $8 Billion to bury a line in an area with more than enough space for a surface line.

The TTC did not severely underestimate the ridership, metrolinx gave us a a number without showing how they got to that number.
Metrolinx quoted 12,000pph at opening. I forgot what are subway-worthy levels but I have 15,000pph in my head for some reason, so let's go with that for argument's sake. That's not much of a difference over the initial life of the line, I'm sure this will be surpassed within the first few years (if not the first).

How do you think the TTC came up with under 5,500pph in 2031 for Eglinton? Such a discrepancy is worthy of investigation, Metrolinx's numbers made far more sense from the get go.
Filip no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 08:23 PM   #55
icemachine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Richmond Hill
Posts: 630
Likes (Received): 0

The TTC's number of 5500 pph/pd was based on the complete Transit City plan which would have Don Mills LRT taking a large number of riders south rather than packing everyone into the already overcrowded Yonge Subway
icemachine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2011, 08:19 PM   #56
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,204
Likes (Received): 153

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Still don't get why this isn't a subway line.
That does seem to be a question which neither the City, TTC, nor Metrolinx seem to want to answer.
Building thrid rail is cheaper than tunneled LRT as you don't have to build the overhead power supply..............I called the Eglinton LRT office and she agreed that of tunneled systems , whether they be subway, SkyTrain, or monorail, LRT is the most expensive. Also all three of those systems have higher capacity than LRT with same size stations. Also LRT trains have the shortest life expectancy of any of those 4 systems.
When I stated this she mentioned that it is because if it is ever extended it maybe at grade. This, however, is completely contrary to their stated objective of making the line fully automated. You cannot have even one level crossing and have a line automated.
Of course one has to understand that this is Metrolinx and it, like the TTC, consider cost estimates as something that can be grabbed from mid-air.
One only has to look at the SRT conversion to LRT. The stations are built so we are just talking a redoing of track and overhead power supply. It is somehow going to come in at a truly bizzare $1.2 billion yet ultra-low wage Calgary is building an elevated/at grade/tunneled NEW 8 km LRT line for $800 million and low cost land Vancouver is building a NEW supposedly expensive SkyTrain line of 11km for $1.4 billion. Of course Metrolinx will state Toronto has higher enviornmental and safety standarrds but would be at a loss to explain how the L.A. Gold Line subway expansion of 18km is costing $1.3 billion in a city with higher wages, land costs, and very strict enviornmental and high cost earthquake resistant standards.
Small wonder Toronto has a hard time prying money from Ottawa and Queen's Park for transit infrastructure when their costs are so completely inflated and out of wack with N.A. standards.
It seems Toronto transit infrastructure costs are dolled out the same way Montreal road repairs are.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2011, 12:38 AM   #57
Kensingtonian
Registered User
 
Kensingtonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,142
Likes (Received): 36

One big advantage of LRT is that it's adaptable. It can be run on the surface for cheaper if and when we run out of money. ie: we won't end up with another stubway.

Personally, I think it can run at grade from just past Laird to just before Victoria Park without losing much speed. The only intersection to really worry about is Don Mills and that will be a station.
Kensingtonian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2011, 06:21 PM   #58
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,701
Likes (Received): 17

I got a tweet from Matt Elliot(Graphic Matt), and it seems Karen Stintz admits there are "issue" with burying the Eglinton Line...

Hmmmmmm.......
__________________
The more valuable you perceive your time as worth, the less valuable it actually is.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2011, 06:44 AM   #59
allurban
All Urban
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 4,421
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
I got a tweet from Matt Elliot(Graphic Matt), and it seems Karen Stintz admits there are "issue" with burying the Eglinton Line...

Hmmmmmm.......
interesting that the "issues" only appeared after the recent provincial election?

Cheers, m
__________________
Follow TRANSIT - the Association for the Improvement of Mass-Transit

w. http://transitmy.org
e. klangvalley.transit@gmail.com
tw. http://twitter.com/transitmy
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/TRANSI...12392362108880
allurban no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2011, 08:46 PM   #60
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,204
Likes (Received): 153

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensingtonian View Post
One big advantage of LRT is that it's adaptable. It can be run on the surface for cheaper if and when we run out of money. ie: we won't end up with another stubway.

Personally, I think it can run at grade from just past Laird to just before Victoria Park without losing much speed. The only intersection to really worry about is Don Mills and that will be a station.
I agree.
The issue is that if the line is to be tunneled and automated then that is not an option. Toronto constantly bitches that it needs operational funds and automation can save a lot of operating money.
I prefer the idea of automation although in Toronto that still means the TTC union will demand someone on the trains to make sure the doors close or some other ludicrous requirement.
Tunneling west of Don Mills certainly makes sense both in terms of transit needs and the urban enviornment but tunneling from DM to Kennedy is an obscene waste of time and money. The line should be tunneled but I'm sure Ford and the TTC were too afraid of blocking the views of the industrial parks and car dealers.
The price they are paying for this line is an affront to taxpayers. There is no way in hell that the SRT conversion should cost more than $100 million and take more than 8 months.
If Calgary can build a new 8 km tunneled/at grade/ elevated 8 km LRT line with 8 new stations in 3 years how the hell is it going to take Toronto 3 years to convert a tiny 6km route?
How did Vancouver build it's new 18km Millenium SkyTrain line from the day it was announced, enviornmental assessments, planning, building in just 22 months?
Victoria gave Translink 3 months for the enviornmental assesment as they, like everyone else, knows that there is no enviornmental damage done when going down a already busy corridor. If a rapid transit line takes more than 3 months for an enviornmental assesment for a an already existing busy roadway then it is not an enviornmental assesment but a make-work project.
Vancouver also had the line under construction all at once on , arguably, Burnaby 2nd most major road using several different construction companies. Those brought to tender were told of the strict timelines and were told there would be very stiff penalties if they came in over time or over budget.
That is how you build rapit transit.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu