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Liverpool Metro Area 'Scouse Scrapers for both sides of the Mersey



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Old January 21st, 2011, 11:54 AM   #1
Babaloo
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Thumbs up Liverpool Railway News and Discussion

In principle is there a reason why modern diesel trains can't run into Central thus allowing an half hourly service to Wrexham without the rigmarole of having to change at Bidston?

The reason I'm asking this is because Southern Railway runs a diesel service from Brighton to Ashford that travels on third rail tracks for most of the way (from Brighton to Ore) so having a third rail isn't an inherent problem.

Maybe there's something about Central? In which case terminate the train at James Street - it can use the old platform!

So many people come into central Liverpool from the peninsular and NE Wales to attend cultural events and often have to leave before the final encore or make a desperate dash to one of the downtown stations because they're afraid of missing the last train from Bidston and being forced to call someone to come out from Neston or Hope to rescue them!
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Old January 21st, 2011, 01:16 PM   #2
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Yes, it is underground, nothing to do with the 3rd rail. There are many places where diesel trains run over the third rail (including at Hunts Cross).

The problem is the fumes (and fire systems). Only a Network Rail MPV can run through Central during opening hours - and the fumes are bad with that despite is being very modern and designed for use in enclosed spaces.
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Old January 21st, 2011, 05:43 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babaloo View Post
In principle is there a reason why modern diesel trains can't run into Central thus allowing an half hourly service to Wrexham without the rigmarole of having to change at Bidston? ...
Diesel trains cannot be allowed into Liverpool underground stations because of the fire risk related to station design.
Diesel hauled engineers' trains have been in Liverpool underground stations, but not ordinarily.

The most economic solution to provide through trains is light rail electrification. Imagine something compatible with the Manchester Metrolink system.
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Old January 21st, 2011, 11:27 PM   #4
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Merseytravel have come up with a suggestion: the diesel Borderlands trains go only as far as James Street, using the abandoned Platform 2. That way they wouldn't have to go round the loop and stick to the stations that were built for steam traction. It's an interesting idea, though obviously electrification would be much better.
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Old January 21st, 2011, 11:35 PM   #5
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Still wouldn't be allowed.
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Old January 22nd, 2011, 07:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsetwilly View Post
Merseytravel have come up with a suggestion: the diesel Borderlands trains go only as far as James Street, using the abandoned Platform 2. That way they wouldn't have to go round the loop and stick to the stations that were built for steam traction. It's an interesting idea, though obviously electrification would be much better.
It's a great idea!
It would probably be safer and less disruptive to the timetabling if those trains ran non-stop between James Street and Birkenhead North.
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Old January 22nd, 2011, 07:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsetwilly View Post
Merseytravel have come up with a suggestion: the diesel Borderlands trains go only as far as James Street, using the abandoned Platform 2. That way they wouldn't have to go round the loop and stick to the stations that were built for steam traction. It's an interesting idea, though obviously electrification would be much better.
If the train was diesel with a third rail electric pickup, then turn off the diesel engines at Bidston. That is provided the safety risk is OK. Then the train can only go as far as James St and "maybe" Central if the old James St to Central Tunnel becomes twin track, then there are safety risks at Central, as the station was rebuilt in the 1970s for electrics. If the train only goes to James St, what is the point as a change is needed in most journeys. You may as well change at Bidston.

The time from Wrexham to Liverpool would still be slow as the diesel section would still be slow as it is now. It would only give access to Liverpool's centre, not an improved faster service.

I wouldn't like it at all with all that fuel in the tunnels. James St is deep, one of the deepest underground stations in the world to under the deep river, and not easy to get out of in emergencies. I doubt it will happen.

Last edited by Romania1; January 22nd, 2011 at 08:14 AM.
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Old January 22nd, 2011, 08:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyBlack View Post
Diesel trains cannot be allowed into Liverpool underground stations because of the fire risk related to station design.
Diesel hauled engineers' trains have been in Liverpool underground stations, but not ordinarily.

The most economic solution to provide through trains is light rail electrification. Imagine something compatible with the Manchester Metrolink system.
"Through trains"? From Wrexham? Overhead wires is the cheapest on the existing track using dual voltage trains, not trams. Trams need wires anyhow.

The Welsh primarily want a direct connection to John Lennon. A poor second for the Welsh is a direct connection to Liverpool's centre. Shop owners in Wrexham would not like the idea of people being zipped off to Liverpool to shop.

The Wrexham line is long, as long as the Liverpool to Manchester line, and may not justify the expense of installing wires. They have to put forward an economic growth case. The quickest route to John Lennon is the Halton Curve. Airport access is the prime point.

A full electrified line to the North Wales coast is what the Welsh also want, so people go directly from Liverpool and spend money there.

Last edited by Romania1; January 22nd, 2011 at 09:24 AM.
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Old February 10th, 2011, 05:48 PM   #9
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09/10 Passenger figures are out.

Only 11 stations in the area saw any growth - and some of these increases were as little as less than 200 additional entries and exits.

Based on entries and exits, those with growth are:

Edge Hill (up 7%)
Heswall (up 1.3%)
James Street (up 7.9%)
Lime Street (up 0.01%)
Liverpool SOuth Parkway (up 2.3%)
Meols Cop (up 0.7%)
Sandhills (up 14.3%)
St Helens Central (up 3.5%)
Thatto Heath (up 5.4%)
Upton (up 0.9%)
West Allerton (up 9.8%)

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Old March 1st, 2011, 01:13 AM   #10
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According to tonight's Echo, Merseyrail won't be seeing new trains until 2017 at the earliest...

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...0252-28247324/

The main excuse, apparently, is not wanting to put out a tender at the same time as London companies. It sounds more to me like they're putting of something that'll cost quite a bit, but is severely needed. As much as I respect the existing train stock for its service over many years, it really is ageing quite badly now and I worry about more breakdowns and possible cars being scrapped.

I think the title of this thread should be changed. It grates somewhat.
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Old March 1st, 2011, 12:30 PM   #11
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Given the stalled nature of railway development in the city region - nothing happening on the Wrexham line, nothing happening on the Halton curve, nothing happening beyond Kirkby, next to nothing happening anywhere else. Still just one train an hour to London for most of the day, no direct trains to Scotland, southern or south west England, Wales, etc. - maybe a revolution is what's needed, or maybe the thread's title is heavily ironic
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Old March 1st, 2011, 07:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
According to tonight's Echo, Merseyrail won't be seeing new trains until 2017 at the earliest...

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...0252-28247324/

The main excuse, apparently, is not wanting to put out a tender at the same time as London companies. It sounds more to me like they're putting of something that'll cost quite a bit, but is severely needed. As much as I respect the existing train stock for its service over many years, it really is ageing quite badly now and I worry about more breakdowns and possible cars being scrapped.

I think the title of this thread should be changed. It grates somewhat.
Surely an order for Merseyrail could be stuck on to an order for London Underground? The S Stock trains Bombardier are building would work fine on Merseyrail, the only difference would be third-rail power instead of forth-rail (although ideally they should have overhead pick-ups too for future use).
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Old March 1st, 2011, 07:47 PM   #13
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S Stock is too wide for here - a good 10cm too wide. Also a significantly slower maximum speed.
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Old March 1st, 2011, 11:58 PM   #14
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A slower maximum speed than the 507/8s? Why's that?

Any add-on order would have to have modifications; there's no getting around that. Merseyrail has specific requirements, considering things from tunnel widths to platform lengths to third rail electrification. The 507/8s were never specifically designed for Merseyrail and that's what we'll need up here. It's a once in a generation opportunity to get it right, so that the network can perform to its potential, but it seems as we approach the date for new stock, the date runs away from us.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 12:17 AM   #15
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Absolutely, it needs modified stock giving a bespoke solution.

Not sure what you question means about maximum speed though? The S Stock has a slower maximum speed because they don't need to go as fast as Merseyrail units do.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 01:05 AM   #16
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Is that due to station distances? I'm not familiar with the subsurface Underground lines, but I would've thought distances between stations was quite big in the outer reaches of the network. Certainly, the Metropolitan Line seems very suburban in nature.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 01:31 AM   #17
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This delay may be a good thing in the mid term. They may actually order light-rail rolling stock that can use tighter curves, that can enter Liverpool and Wirral Waters and be used all over the Merseyrail network. The DLR type of trains, adapeted to Merseyrail and preferably with dual voltage overhead wires and 3rd rail, make so much sense in Liverpool. They can then run on the electrified Liverpool to Manchester, St.Helens, Huyon, Wigan lines.

Last edited by Romania1; March 2nd, 2011 at 10:13 AM.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 10:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Government slaps four-year ban on new local rail schemes
by Rob Merrick, Liverpool Daily Post Mar 2 2011



A FOUR-YEAR ban has been quietly slapped on new local rail schemes, delivering a blow to campaigners hoping to reopen long-mothballed lines.

Groups would be required to fund any projects – including new stations or switching freight lines to passenger travel – for three years before the Government would step in to help.

The announcement, slipped out late at night by the Department for Transport (DfT), is the latest evidence of a severe spending squeeze on railways.

Just 100 new carriages will be delivered across the North, down from 224 promised before last year’s election. The Government derided Labour’s plans as “uncosted”.

Now the ban on local rail schemes could hit hoped-for projects including:

The Burscough Curves, a £2.5m scheme to revive the disused electric track between Ormskirk and Burscough, shut down in the 1960s;

The Halton Curve, from Frodsham to Runcorn, allowing access from Chester to JLA, which closed in the early 1990s. Merseytravel believes 1m passengers would use it;
Continues >>
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 11:08 AM   #19
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How can 'groups' fund such schemes unless they own the railway lines or the railway companies? It doesn't make sense otherwise.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 07:51 PM   #20
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London Midland has had its Liverpool - London service refused, and its Birmingham - Preston service, so it looks like they will continue to provide two trains per hour London - Birmingham.
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