Liverpool Railway News and Discussion

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by Babaloo

...it might be provident to look at the cost of building additional stations on existing lines within south central Liverpool - for example, St James' station might be reopened. I'm not in favour of a new station in Chinatown - I would prefer an entrance to Central to exist at the top of Bold Street roughly where the new Sainsbury's will be. Warwick Street has an opening in the tunnel and there used to be large ventilation shaft in the tunnel near Dingle Mount so, in theory, it might be possible to envisage a line from Central to St Michaels that called at St James - Warwick Street - Brunswick - Dingle Mount en route and not just Brunswick. Of course, there remains the problem of demonstrating demand and value for money.

My only issue with St James is that it's a bit far south, certainly if there is to be no Chinatown station. Of course, a Chinatown station was planned when the system was modernized 40 years or so ago. It would've been on the junction of Duke Street & Berry Street. I'm not entirely sure if this would've been on the spur line that would go through the Wapping Tunnel, but I doubt it. That's why, if there's not going to be two stations around here, I'd sooner there was one halfway between the proposed Chinatown station and where St James was. This would put it about half way along Great George Street, about 800m south of Central, which in itself is 800m south of Moorfields. The problem with that whole part of town though is that it's still essentially a low-density tip. Those horrid 60s massonettes are still there and I suspect only partially occupied. I'm not saying a station here is the solution to the area's problems, but it could be a nice addition to a greater project to make this area a proper downtown neighbourhood once again.

A station at Warwick Street is a respectable idea, but again, that area of Toxteth is blighted by 80s low-density development. Not sure where your Dingle Mount station would be. The distance between Brunswich & St Micheals is 1800m. Exactly half way is South Hill Road/Cockborn Street, so any station between those would surely be at that location.

Two stations between Moorfields & Sandhills would be good too; one by the Costco and one by the tobacco warehouse.

[jetsetwilly]

A Chinatown station behind the Blackie would be great, where all those blocks of flats have been cleared. It'd also have the advantage that you could build over the top with a new development, and it's handy for the cathedral.

[Gareth]

Indeed. I've always though that it'd be great it Chinatown extended along Great George Street. That area is so depressing, at the moment. It's not helped by that gated development cutting it off from the Cathedral either.

[Martin S]

Originally Posted by Babaloo

Of course, just because something hasn't worked in the past doesn't mean that in different circumstances it might not work in the future but any transport developments need to be linked to where the city is now and perhaps where it might be in 10 years time. This suggests that before cut and cover lines emerge from the Dingle tunnel and run under Ullet Road / Lodge Lane etc in order to use tunnels just because they are currently unused (presumably for a reason), it might be provident to look at the cost of building additional stations on existing lines within south central Liverpool - for example, St James' station might be reopened. I'm not in favour of a new station in Chinatown - I would prefer an entrance to Central to exist at the top of Bold Street roughly where the new Sainsbury's will be. Warwick Street has an opening in the tunnel and there used to be large ventilation shaft in the tunnel near Dingle Mount so, in theory, it might be possible to envisage a line from Central to St Michaels that called at St James - Warwick Street - Brunswick - Dingle Mount en route and not just Brunswick. Of course, there remains the problem of demonstrating demand and value for money.

I think that of all the possible stations that might be opened south of Central, St James (or Parliament Street) is probably the most likely - the reason being that there has been a station there before and so there is room for two wide platforms and also the fact that it is at the confluence of five major roads (Parliament Street, Upper Parliament Street, Gt George Streeet, St James Place and St James Street) and so is at a focal point for that area, very close to the Anglican Cathedral and within walking distance of Chinatown and the Kings Waterfront area. Also, in railway terms it is about halfway between Central and Brunswick and so is not too close to either.

I remember that a feasibility study was into the re-opening of the station was announced some years ago but I don't know the outcome of it.

I don't think that a new station in Warwick Street would be very likely. There is an opening in the tunnel, but constructing a station would mean widening of the cutting and opening out of the flanking tunnels over the length of a six car train to provide enough room for the platforms.

However, the main drawback would be that Warwick Street is not a focal point for the area and houses in the locality would be an easy ten minute walk from either St James or Brunswick.

It might be feasible to provide another entrance to Central Low Level at the south end of Bold Street, which would give better access to Chinatown. I have a feeling that the reason that would not go ahead is because people would use it to get access to the Wirral Line platform and would be adding to the congestion on the platforms. Still, it might be a possibility.

Based on the minimum station spacings we have at present, I think there is probably room for one station between Central and Brunswick but you have to remember that more stations also lengthens journey time and is a disincentive to travel by train.

[Medici]

Many of the ideas on this and other threads are fantastic and inspirational but are they ever likely to happen? Why aren't our elected representatives doing anything to implement these ideas?

[Evertonian]

Originally Posted by Medici

Many of the ideas on this and other threads are fantastic and inspirational but are they ever likely to happen? Why aren't our elected representatives doing anything to implement these ideas?

Money mate.

This city has had the worst settlement in terms of omney from national government since the 1930's. On top of that Merseytravel have had their budget cut by 2/3rds.

I'm always saying on this forum that people don't seem to know what's going to hit them over the next few years. We really are in for a massive kick to the bollocks, regardless of the odd bit of development in the form of 40 million pound exhibition halls (a drop in the ocean in real terms of investment).

This is why people like John and the heritage brigade are so out of step with reality....and I mean on a level that would be comical, if it weren't so tragic, what is going to happen to this city.

[Medici]

Originally Posted by Evertonian

Money mate.

This city has had the worst settlement in terms of omney from national government since the 1930's. On top of that Merseytravel have had their budget cut by 2/3rds.

I'm always saying on this forum that people don't seem to know what's going to hit them over the next few years. We really are in for a massive kick to the bollocks, regardless of the odd bit of development in the form of 40 million pound exhibition halls (a drop in the ocean in real terms of investment).

This is why people like John and the heritage brigade are so out of step with reality....and I mean on a level that would be comical, if it weren't so tragic, what is going to happen to this city.

I agree that the budget has been unfairly cut by the govt but there is no reason the coalition will last although its hard to predict what may happen. No, the economic policy of this govt is not an established orthodoxy in the way that Thatcherism became in the 80-'s, it is quite reversable by the next govt which may not be led by Ed Milliband. The city declined big time in the 70's what you are seeing is not on that scale, we are not reliant on one industry to such an extent anymore.

[Martin S]

Originally Posted by Evertonian

I am 30 year of age. I am one of "Thatcher's children". Arguably this city, regardless of the recent renaisance it has been through, has STILL not gotten over the effects of Thatcherism and the lack of investment in public services and industry. We are still one of the most deprived cities in the country, despite 13 years of Labour trying to redress the balance.

What is about to hit this city is this: Cuts that Thatcher could only have dreamt of. The worst settlement for this city since the war. Mass unemployment on a scale that will easily match that of the 1980's, when 4 million were out of work, if not worse.

This country does not make anything anymore and is WHOLLY dependant on retail and financial services. We are not the market leader in ANYTHING anymore. Liverpool in particular has no manufacturing base and no jobs market at the best of times.

I (genuinely, this time) don't mean to come across as an arsehole, but I am very, very worried that people in this city don't seem to understand fully what is about to happen to Merseyside.

I am deeply, deeply worried. I think people are being highly presumtous if they think that the Tories won't win the next election. For a start, I doubt if Ed Milliband is electable. This country voted Thatcher in 3 times.




Anyway....in answer to your question. Merseytravel have had their funding cut by £250,000 a week, so any new investment in rail will have to go on the back burner.

You know Tony, I am very worried about the effect of the cuts on our city so you are not alone.. but your posts are always too emotional and lack clear thinking.

Why are the Tories making all these cuts? Might it have anything to do with the huge amount of public money that Alistair Darling spent propping up the banks when they had amassed so much toxic debt?

Had Labour been elected last May would they have cut nothing? The fact that they will not be drawn on what cuts they would have made speaks volumes. They were very fortunate not to be elected, I think. They can deplore every cut the government will make and you can rest assured that there would never have been any cuts on Merseyside.

Labour tried to redress the balance during their 13 years in power? Since this is a thread called Liverpool Railway Revolution, I need to remind you again that the only major public transport investment over the three Labour parliaments was Liverpool South Parkway Station. Compare that to the 18 years of the Thatcher / Major administration that gave us four electrification schemes, complete resignalling of the Merseyrail network and new stations at Conway Park, Brunswick, Eastham Rake, Bromborough Rake and Overpool.

In fact, since the coalition government has come to power, they have committed to the electrification of the Liverpool and Manchester lines and Liverpool to Wigan lines, which had not been properly funded by Labour and would probably have not got past an incoming Labour goverment's first spending review. Remember that during the 13 years of Labour administration, not one inch of new railway electrification took place on the existing network nationally.

As for Merseytram, that was one of over twenty light rapid transit lines that Labour promised us when they were elected in 1997. They delivered one, the Nottingham system. The Tories delivered Manchester, Sheffield, Croydon, London Docklands and East Midlands. In fact, I would be very surprised if, at least, a start is not made on Merseytram by the end of this parliament.

I'm not a convinced Tory supporter and didn't vote for them at the last election - but this unthinking Labour Good, Tories Bad thinking needs to be challenged.

It reminds me of the old joke about the two Irish labourers digging up the road outside a brothel and their different attitudes to seeing the local vicar, rabii and Catholic priest as customers. I won't repeat it in full as I'll be accused of being racist and anti-Catholic but it really just illustrates the way that people's judgement is clouded by pre-conceived thinking.

[HollyBlack]

There is a huge need for a station of some kind to serve the University and Infirmary. Given the over-representation of non-drivers in the population of target users the gains would be great. Both in promoting Liverpool as a greater centre of education and medical research excellence; and also serving people who are ambulatory but too medicated to drive safely.

Non-drivers typically include younger people (typically students), foreign academics and poor people. Once the facilities are there lots of users (including drivers) will come.

There are several ways (none obvious or entirely easy) to implement a light-rail station thereabouts, any one of them would be fine.

[Scarecrow]

How about Pall Mall? Before they put a spade in the ground, have they considered this site? Talls would be ok, it's adjacent to Moorfields Station, and the land would require minimal clearance.

There. I've put my head above the parapet, now shoot me in the face!

[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by Martin S

You know Tony, I am very worried about the effect of the cuts on our city so you are not alone.. but your posts are always too emotional and lack clear thinking.

Why are the Tories making all these cuts? Might it have anything to do with the huge amount of public money that Alistair Darling spent propping up the banks when they had amassed so much toxic debt?

Had Labour been elected last May would they have cut nothing? The fact that they will not be drawn on what cuts they would have made speaks volumes. They were very fortunate not to be elected, I think. They can deplore every cut the government will make and you can rest assured that there would never have been any cuts on Merseyside.

Labour tried to redress the balance during their 13 years in power? Since this is a thread called Liverpool Railway Revolution, I need to remind you again that the only major public transport investment over the three Labour parliaments was Liverpool South Parkway Station. Compare that to the 18 years of the Thatcher / Major administration that gave us four electrification schemes, complete resignalling of the Merseyrail network and new stations at Conway Park, Brunswick, Eastham Rake, Bromborough Rake and Overpool.

In fact, since the coalition government has come to power, they have committed to the electrification of the Liverpool and Manchester lines and Liverpool to Wigan lines, which had not been properly funded by Labour and would probably have not got past an incoming Labour goverment's first spending review. Remember that during the 13 years of Labour administration, not one inch of new railway electrification took place on the existing network nationally.

As for Merseytram, that was one of over twenty light rapid transit lines that Labour promised us when they were elected in 1997. They delivered one, the Nottingham system. The Tories delivered Manchester, Sheffield, Croydon, London Docklands and East Midlands. In fact, I would be very surprised if, at least, a start is not made on Merseytram by the end of this parliament.

I'm not a convinced Tory supporter and didn't vote for them at the last election - but this unthinking Labour Good, Tories Bad thinking needs to be challenged.

It reminds me of the old joke about the two Irish labourers digging up the road outside a brothel and their different attitudes to seeing the local vicar, rabii and Catholic priest as customers. I won't repeat it in full as I'll be accused of being racist and anti-Catholic but it really just illustrates the way that people's judgement is clouded by pre-conceived thinking.

It could also be said that Labour, affected by the biggest world slump in history had no choice but to support the banks, because the alternative would've been to allow the whole economy to completely collapse.... as happened elsewhere.

As regards spending on railways etc, during Labours tenure the whole of the east and west coast mainlines were completely rebuilt. These projects alone completely dwarf the handful of local tram systems that were built under the tories, that haven't all been the great success they were supposed to be. The companies involved in Railway engineering are now ALL operating with skeleton staff with very little work going on in comparison to say 3yrs ago. I also think the Liverpool-Manchester electrification was sanctioned and designed during labour's time..... I can check that.

Not to mention the complete collapse of manufacturing and other traditional industries over the tories previous yrs in power...... at no point during that time did they enjoy lower unemployment rates than we did under labour. Looking at Liverpool in general... I'd say it's fortunes under Labour completely eclipse those during the Tories previous reign when the place's decline was positively encouraged. As a result, almost everyone I went school with no longer lives in the city.... and even I don't work here anymore.

Not sure what "catholics" have to do with any of it, or is this a catholic/labour and Protestant/conservative reference.

[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by HollyBlack

There is a huge need for a station of some kind to serve the University and Infirmary. Given the over-representation of non-drivers in the population of target users the gains would be great. Both in promoting Liverpool as a greater centre of education and medical research excellence; and also serving people who are ambulatory but too medicated to drive safely.

Non-drivers typically include younger people (typically students), foreign academics and poor people. Once the facilities are there lots of users (including drivers) will come.

There are several ways (none obvious or entirely easy) to implement a light-rail station thereabouts, any one of them would be fine.

I've said several times before that the city-centre requires a dedicated people-mover serving all these downtown areas not covered by Merseyrail. The proposed waterfront developments adds impetus to this, as these areas will be quite far removed from the current core and its stations. This may take the form of a tram or a monorail or something similar to a PRT/GRT system. Then people can enter the city-centre from any point, and jump on this system to reach all parts of the centre. For efficiency of operation I think a completely segregated system is probably required, as by definition the centre's streets are prone to congestion, be it vehicular or pedestrian. Such a system could then promote further infilling developments in the current blind spots and peripheries of the city-centre, including around the Universities/hospitals/Docks and inner city districts of Vauxhall/Everton/Kensington/Toxteth etc

[Babaloo]

ML mentioned a while back that London Midland's request to run a service from Euston to Lime Street (via Stoke-on-Trent) had been refused because of capacity issues on the WCML.

Last time I was at Euston I'm sure I heard an announcement for a London Midland service to Crewe (it stuck in my mind because passengers for certain stations had to make sure they were sitting in a particular part of the train because of undersized platforms or something). I wondered why this service couldn't be extended to Lime Street - are there capacity issues between Crewe and the point where the line to Lime Street leaves the WCML?

There is clearly a demand to run long distance services into Liverpool as the recent tentative proposals from Scotrail demonstrate (an hourly Liverpool - Edinburgh route once the electrification of the line from Edge Hill to Wigan is completed).

[Babaloo]

Halton Curve between Liverpool and North Wales could be revived according to Halton Local Transport Plan

Mar 31 2011 by Mark Smith, Runcorn and Widnes Weekly News

ONE of the major projects to receive council backing in the plan was the Halton Curve railway line. The Curve connects the Chester-Warrington Line with the Liverpool Branch of the West Coast Mainline (WCML).

The local passenger service between Chester, Runcorn and Liverpool was withdrawn in the mid 70s but the track infrastructure was retained as a diversionary route, with only a weekly service operated on Saturdays in the summer. The proposed revival of the Curve involves the reinstatement of the points at Halton and Frodsham junctions and upgrades to the track.

The scheme has been developed in partnership with Merseytravel, Cheshire West and Chester Council and the TAITH consortium of North
Wales authorities. The LTP3 document said there is a positive economic case and it is progressing through the development stage, but that no firm source of funding has been identified. It stated: “The partnership, together with Network Rail, believes that with the improvements, the Halton Curve could be operated to allow the provision of a new frequent local passenger train service that would serve Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, Runcorn, Frodsham, Helsby, Chester and then onwards to North Wales.

The Halton Curve could also assist with freight movements. The provision of a new station at Beechwood on the Halton Curve and the reopening of Ditton Station are being considered as part of the proposals. The enhancement of the train service from Ellesmere Port to Helsby and then on to Runcorn and Liverpool is also under consideration in the proposals.

The improvements to Halton Curve would help to reduce the demand for travel across the Silver Jubilee Bridge and as such would help to address the acute problems of congestion.

A new rail service crossing the Mersey would give an alternative to paying bridge tolls once the Mersey Gateway project has been implemented. In addition, the scheme would increase rail accessibility both within Halton and also to the wider region, by providing a direct link between Liverpool and North Wales. Also, the scheme would be supportive of the development of Liverpool John Lennon Airport.”

This has been going on for years and it's a no-brainer but whereas money can be found to finance other rail schemes this one never seems to get off the ground

[Babaloo]

The reopening of the Halton Curve would make possible:

Liverpool to North Wales services (LLandudno & Holyhead)
Liverpool to Wrexham and Cardiff / Swansea (via Chester, Wrexham & Shrewsbury)
Liverpool to London (via Chester - maybe not calling at Runcorn)
Liverpool Central to Liverpool Lime Street (via Ellesmere Port: this would also require the electrification of the line between EP & Runcorn but well worth it - ideally using overhead wires).
Liverpool to Birmingham (via Chester - Wrexham & Shrewsbury)

What's there not to like? It looks as though we could have a busy junction on our hands but with the most modern signalling equipment I'm sure the extra traffic could be managed.

There are currently 3 trains an hour (2 to Birmingham & 1 to London) in each direction (the other being Liverpool, of course). Not exactly scorching the rails is it? Quite a few people from Shropshire use JLA - direct rail services would sooooo much greener

[bluesnapper]

Originally Posted by Babaloo

The reopening of the Halton Curve would make possible:

Liverpool to North Wales services (LLandudno & Bangor)
Liverpool to Wrexham and Cardiff (via Chester)
Liverpool to London (via Chester - maybe not calling at Runcorn)
Liverpool Central to Liverpool Lime Street (via Ellesmere Port: this would also require the electrification of the line between EP & Runcorn but well worth it - ideally using overhead wires).
Liverpool to Cardiff / Swansea (via Chester - Wrexham & Shrewsbury).
Liverpool to Birmingham (via Chester - Wrexham & Shrewsbury)

What's there not to like? It looks as though we could have a busy junction on our hands but with the most modern signalling equipment I'm sure the extra traffic could be managed.

There are currently 3 trains an hour (2 to Birmingham & 1 to London) in each direction (the other being Liverpool, of course). Not exactly scorching the rails is it?

It will also bring the above into (near) contact with Liverpool Airport (LPL) via Liverpool South Parkway (LSP).

[Mostly Lurking]

Thanks for sorting this thread out b4mmy.

I apologise if I have missed any relevant posts out of what was to be brought in here from the other thread. It was quite a task going through the last 30 pages or so of it.

Originally Posted by Babaloo

ML mentioned a while back that London Midland's request to run a service from Euston to Lime Street (via Stoke-on-Trent) had been refused because of capacity issues on the WCML.

Last time I was at Euston I'm sure I heard an announcement for a London Midland service to Crewe (it stuck in my mind because passengers for certain stations had to make sure they were sitting in a particular part of the train because of undersized platforms or something). I wondered why this service couldn't be extended to Lime Street - are there capacity issues between Crewe and the point where the line to Lime Street leaves the WCML?

Will have a look at the detailed report this afternoon and reply again then

[Mostly Lurking]

Originally Posted by Babaloo

ML mentioned a while back that London Midland's request to run a service from Euston to Lime Street (via Stoke-on-Trent) had been refused because of capacity issues on the WCML.

Last time I was at Euston I'm sure I heard an announcement for a London Midland service to Crewe (it stuck in my mind because passengers for certain stations had to make sure they were sitting in a particular part of the train because of undersized platforms or something). I wondered why this service couldn't be extended to Lime Street - are there capacity issues between Crewe and the point where the line to Lime Street leaves the WCML?

There is clearly a demand to run long distance services into Liverpool as the recent tentative proposals from Scotrail demonstrate (an hourly Liverpool - Edinburgh route once the electrification of the line from Edge Hill to Wigan is completed).

Just looked through the documents. Basically, the proposals were refused in order to maintain rigidity in timetables, and therefore punctuality. It wasn't just London Midland that had applications refused - two Open Access operators had proposals refused too.

And indeed, there is an hourly (only daytime off peak I think) London Midland service from Euston to Crewe.

[Martin S]

Originally Posted by Tom Hughes

It could also be said that Labour, affected by the biggest world slump in history had no choice but to support the banks, because the alternative would've been to allow the whole economy to completely collapse.... as happened elsewhere.

As regards spending on railways etc, during Labours tenure the whole of the east and west coast mainlines were completely rebuilt. These projects alone completely dwarf the handful of local tram systems that were built under the tories, that haven't all been the great success they were supposed to be. The companies involved in Railway engineering are now ALL operating with skeleton staff with very little work going on in comparison to say 3yrs ago. I also think the Liverpool-Manchester electrification was sanctioned and designed during labour's time..... I can check that.

Not to mention the complete collapse of manufacturing and other traditional industries over the tories previous yrs in power...... at no point during that time did they enjoy lower unemployment rates than we did under labour. Looking at Liverpool in general... I'd say it's fortunes under Labour completely eclipse those during the Tories previous reign when the place's decline was positively encouraged. As a result, almost everyone I went school with no longer lives in the city.... and even I don't work here anymore.

Not sure what "catholics" have to do with any of it, or is this a catholic/labour and Protestant/conservative reference.

Tom,

I don't know enough about economics to say that propping up the banks using public money was a good or a bad idea. It certainly made us liable to a huge amount of toxic debt and, if you read 'The Debt Generation' by David Malone, you will realise it is highly arguable that a failure to prop up the banks would have led to economic catastrophe.

However, the main point is that this huge debt was accrued under a Labour government who are now castigating the Tories for their efforts to reduce this debt to manageable proportions. I wonder if the situation had been reversed and Labour had to make cuts to compensate for massive public spending under a Tory government you would be that generous.

The major railway project under the Labour administration was the upgrading of the West Coast Main Line - a project that went massively over budget and failed to achieve its target of 140 mph running. As for the East Coast Main Line - the electrification of this line from Hitchin in Hertfordshire to Edingburgh was achieved completely under Margaret Thatcher's administration - in fact more lines were electrified during her time than any other prime minister.

I also should point out that not only was ECML upgrading carried out under the Tories but also other projects such as East Anglia electrification, Leeds Suburban electrification, Heathrow Express, Thameslink and probably the greatest infrastructure project of the last 100 years - the Channel Tunnel.

Now I know you are not a great tram enthusiast and perhaps it is best that we don't revive that argument but the fact remains that Labour promised twenty tram schemes and delivered one - that does not sound a great success to me.

Of course, that wouldn't matter if there were alternatives but where are the monorails, PRT, or electrified heavy rail routes that would have replaced these trams?

The downturn in rail employment came about with the completion of the West Coast Main Line upgrade. The decision to proceed with the Liverpool - Manchester and Liverpool - Wigan electrifications, which were announced during Labours last year in office following thirteen years of a moratorium on new electrification were taken under a Tory administration having not been properly funded under Labour.

The 'catholic' reference comes from an old joke, which I refrained from telling because it could be seen as being racist or anti-catholic. Anyway, it goes like this:

Two Irish labourers are digging up the road outside a brothel when they see the local Church of England vicar entering.

'Would you take a look at that Patrick - tis sure a shameful thing - him a man of the cloth as well'.

The vicar leaves and the local Rabii walks in.

'What is the world coming to Michael ?- and all those poor Jewish people respecting him so much.'

The Rabii leaves and the local Catholic priest enters.

'Ah, what a frightful pity Patrick, one of those poor girls must have been taken ill.'

Please don't tell me that you don't understand the relevance of this joke.

[Mostly Lurking]

Grand National this weekend, trains as usual operate every 7/8 minutes from Central to Aintree (half continuing to Ormskirk providing the usual service).