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Old July 15th, 2017, 08:04 PM   #1181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I don't want to get too off topic, but "Hauptbahnhof" literally means, "main station", not "central station". Granted, the difference is not too big but those two things are not quite the same.
I agree. In Berlin for example, the "Central station" is Stadtmitte but it's not the Main station.
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Old July 16th, 2017, 12:10 AM   #1182
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Originally Posted by FabriFlorence View Post
I agree. In Berlin for example, the "Central station" is Stadtmitte but it's not the Main station.
"Stadtmitte" literally means "city center" and there are a few German cities, where "Hauptbahnhof" is called "Central station", e.g. Munich.
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Old July 16th, 2017, 02:45 AM   #1183
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Originally Posted by FabriFlorence View Post
I agree. In Berlin for example, the "Central station" is Stadtmitte but it's not the Main station.
Did you even read the discussion about Centrum vs. Centralen that was the starting point of this debate? Stadtmitte translates to Centrum in Swedish, not Centralen. Berlin Hbf translates more or less to Centralen.
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Old July 16th, 2017, 08:24 AM   #1184
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Any first impressions of the new City line now that it has been opened for a few days? Has there already been a massive reorganisation of remaining traffic on the old surface line?
Now that I've used Stockholm City (not as yet Odenplan) in more "real-life" situations my evaluation has changed.

I fretted that it might be difficult to get around, particularly for tourists, but haven't found it to be so. If you have successfully constructed IKEA furniture you should be fine. The signage is clear. If you follow it slavishly, and are able to backtrack if you don't, it is quick and easy. If you think you know where you're going you might end up somewhere very different from where you're going.


The station feels too small. That may seem strange given that the platform is a bit wider than the old ones, and with screen doors at that, and pendeltåg stations are bigger than metro stations. But that doesn't take in account all the many and frequent ways in which the system can go wrong.

In regular run there would be a train passing every few minutes on all four tracks. But when the system stops because of växelfel, elfel, systemfel, teknisk fel etc, the platform quickly fills up. In the old system people knew that, so they didn't actually get on the platform until the trains were arriving, so they hung around in the station areas instead, filling up the station.

Now, everyone is so focused on following the IKEA instructions that they don't know they are in a fel situation until they're already on the platform and you get the airport during thunderstorm or after BA having fried a data centre feeling.

That they are unable to give correct information aggravates the situation gravely. On the way down to the platform I was told the train to Södertälje would arrive in 17 minutes (damn!), then the next sign on the way said 38 minutes (huh? Uh-uh, worst case is 30 minutes). When I finally found a information screen on the platform it said 9 minutes, then suddenly 1 minute, then 2 minutes and there! magically the screen doors opened.

The 9 minutes message said "kort tåg". That is "short train". While the system is basically bilingual, there are a few Swedish commuter terms you just have to learn (including the list of all the possible ways the system may fail). Each train is 215 meter in length, a "kort tåg" is half that, so if you misjudge you might at worst case end up with a hundred meter sprint. That can happen with the metro too, but there the trains are shorter, as is the sprint.

The City station doesn't have any markers. While the small green "kort tåg" signs on other station are inferior to markings on the ground or light signs that this door won't open, those little green signs are far better than nothing. Not that the actual train was short anyway.


This takes us back to that the station feels too small. It isn't really too small, it's fairly spacious for the traffic, and cavernous and well-ventilated as well, so you won't be gasping for air even if it did fill up. All the shortcomings are fixable. Get a PA system where you can actually hear the messages when the platforms fill up, several notches closer to Voice of God/Hesa Fredrik. Get an information system that actually dispenses with information, and not self-contradicting guesses. Get more overview screens where people can see them, and not huddle around it like the last embers of a camp fire.

Make it feasible to flow out of the platform area in times of great delays, to the mezzanines, station areas, even to the sunny Stockholm summer day, safe in the knowledge that the updated screens keep you informed so you can return to the platforms before the train has left.
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Old July 16th, 2017, 08:53 AM   #1185
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I don't recognize the idea that in the old station, people would mill about outside the platforms when there were delays. My experience was that everybody would crowd around the tv screens on the platforms, making them very crowded.

As to the information screen, didn't you just see the listing for a later train when it said 38 minutes? The information scrolls through the next three trains and when you're walking it's easy to just see the time of one of those trains. I've definitely made that mistake in the past.

About short trains, I'm pretty sure I saw signs for that? Plus, you don't have to run 100 meters, doesn't short trains stop in the middle of the platform so that you don't have to walk more than 50 meters from either end?
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Old July 16th, 2017, 01:44 PM   #1186
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What you are describing is the normal/ideal situation when everything is under control. When the system starts to break down, or has broken down, that goes out the window. The traffic controllers don't know when the next train comes, let alone the one after that.

The platform signs then display the destination of the next train and the time to departure in minutes. The field for later trains will have a message (in Swedish) that things are not working well, possibly with reason.

Rarely there's also an intermediate situation, when the trains are running, but there's a holdup. Then there are two trains in the pipeline, the timing may be off, sometimes a change of tracks, worst case a change of train. Slight annoyance or aggravation, particularly when the earlier train you're on is leaving later than a later train. Not a big deal, but enough to instil an uncertainty when you move into an exception, what if there are two trains?

In the old system when there was an announcement that somebody had walked on the tracks at Älvsjö (that place is full somnambolists, it seems) there is a collective murmur of annoyance, and a little more than half the people on the platform shuffle off.

Down/up at the station area (the station was below and above the tracks, not easy back then either) savvy riders always check the information screen before passing the barrier and hang out in the more comfortable station passageways (to the annoyance of other station passengers), or in the station waiting/shopping area.

The intervals are longer for regional trains (not to speak of the delays, regional train travellers have had at least as much to gripe about as the commute travellers), so the station halls are more spacious. Now we can't as easily sponge off the regional train station as before. Which should mean a less crowded and busy regional train station.

To get the same "ugh!" and outflow from the new commuter station we need the delay information to be prominent on the way to the station, to limit the number of people needlessly crowding the platform, and reliable information to de-platform people otherwise trapped in the forlorn hope of an approaching train.
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Old July 16th, 2017, 02:05 PM   #1187
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Floor markings are efficient for showing where to go, where to stand, and as in this example where not to stand (a band-aid for a design flaw, but nevermind)



The station is even without the usual markings for where to stand in line and to let exiting passengers off.



The two of them would give enough information for what to do with kort tåg, but lights above the doors would give a more dynamic solution (particularly with defect train or platform doors). Yellow light: wait here. Green light: you can enter. Red arrow: Go to the door on the right/left, this one won't open.

Above the screen doors is the most obvious and cheapest solution, but light markings on the floor are nice as well. They could also be used as a hint for arriving trains as well, "stay here, there will come a train", "go to the door", "run to the door", "never mind, you won't make it before the doors close anyway", "long wait, go away", "emergency, crawl with your remaining limbs to the nearest exit".
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Old July 16th, 2017, 04:26 PM   #1188
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SL doesn't do floor markings anywhere in their stations, do they?

As far as the information signs are concerned, that doesn't have anything to do with the new Stockholm City station. The information is the same throughout the SL system. Poor information when there are delays or technical problems is a problem SL are working on, but it's probably always going to be difficult for traffic control to give accurate information in all situations.

I do not share the experience that half of the people on the platform leave if there's an announcement of a delay. During commuting hours people tend to stay until it's obvious that there won't be a train coming in the near future. Nobody wants to risk missing their train. At centralen the platforms were outside so in winter people were maybe slightly more prone to waiting in the tunnel going to the platforms.

I do agree that there are surprisingly few overview screens on the platforms of the new stations.
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Old July 20th, 2017, 01:40 AM   #1189
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So as most of you know Citybanan (or "City line" in English) opened July 10, after opening ceremonies on the 9th. Here are some pictures of the new stations during the inauguration:

Stockholm City:

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

LR5925-1716025 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr
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Old July 20th, 2017, 01:53 AM   #1190
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Stockholm Odenplan:

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

LR5925-1715753 Lilla Akademin spelar på Sod-plf by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

LR 170709 9711 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

LR 170709 7481 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

5925-1715285 by Projekt Citybanan, on Flickr

All pictures come from the projects official Flickr page.
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Old July 27th, 2017, 10:28 PM   #1191
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From Metro Report

http://www.metro-report.com/news/new...caf-trams.html

Stockholm orders more CAF trams
27 Jul 2017



SWEDEN: Stockholm transport authority Storstockholms Lokaltrafik has exercised an option for a further eight trams from CAF.

In late 2010 CAF won a firm order to supply 15 trams from its Urbos family to Stockholm. SL subsequently ordered seven more, and all 22 are now in service

...
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Old July 28th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #1192
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IMO the article isn't 100% clear. SL has two lengths of those trams and the picture is of the longer version while the article specs the shorter ones. Both types were part of the same contract iirc. But I'm guessing the extra trams will be of the shorter variant and run on Tvärbanan as that line will need more vehicles as usage increases after re-opening in october.
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Old July 28th, 2017, 08:23 PM   #1193
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I consider Tunnelbanan as one of the sights of Stockholm, great to see that I can add Citybanan to the list now as well.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 11:47 AM   #1194
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I guess the opening of the City line is a great opportunity for a revamped metro map clearly showing the new interchange station at Odenplan.

Here is my take on it:



- Metro, Tram and Rail on the same map
- Services shown as separate lines
- Ferry lines
- Schematized lines but close to real geography
- Waterways and islands for improved orientation and wayfinding

Full resolution image:
http://www.inat.fr/metro/stockholm/
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Old August 7th, 2017, 03:04 PM   #1195
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That does handle Odenplan far better than the official map, yes. And looks over-all much nicer.

A couple of points though: When line 22 re-opens fully in October it'll be extended from Sickla Kaj to Sickla (Station) creating an interchange with Saltsjöbanan. Also, there won't be the break in line at Alvik. Both points that shouldn't mess up the deisng too much?
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Old August 8th, 2017, 12:04 AM   #1196
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New stations are nice, but my biggest gripe is how slow the doors are. Why? It's new technology.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 01:59 PM   #1197
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Originally Posted by Swede View Post
That does handle Odenplan far better than the official map, yes. And looks over-all much nicer.

A couple of points though: When line 22 re-opens fully in October it'll be extended from Sickla Kaj to Sickla (Station) creating an interchange with Saltsjöbanan. Also, there won't be the break in line at Alvik. Both points that shouldn't mess up the deisng too much?
As you say, these updates will blend into the map seamlessly.

I think showing waterways is very important in an archipelago city like Stockholm, even on a metro map. If you know the city very well it doesn't matter but if you are not absolutely familiar with it you want to know if a station is located on one shore or another.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 03:37 PM   #1198
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New stations are nice, but my biggest gripe is how slow the doors are. Why? It's new technology.
Agreed. They ought to open at the same time and speed as the doors on the trains and should start closing at most a second after the doors on the trains start closing. IMO.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 08:00 PM   #1199
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SL published a guide about how to travel in Stockholm (Arabic talk, Swedish text).

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Old November 5th, 2017, 10:58 PM   #1200
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Stockholms tunnelbana
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