I've got a serious question for Hungarians (regarding their cultural, ethnic and linguistic identity)

[Kuwaiti]

Hello, something interesting sparked up. I like to read about different world cultures but these couple of days I'm beginning to wonder if I'm reading propaganda, false information, etc. And I just want to clarify this with our Hungarian community.

For as long as I've lived, I always knew Hungarians were: Christians, Europeans, and Westerners. Even Samuel Huntington's book on Clash of the Civilizations puts Hungary as a Western country.

Now I know that most of Europe speak Indo-European languages but a small portion also speak Uralic languages, notably in Finland, Estonia and Hungary.

My overall knowledge was that Hungarians, Estonians and Finns are somehow therefore ethnically related, due to their linguistic similarities. Of course it doesn't always have to be the case.

But the general consensus was that, okay those guys are all Finno-Ugric and they came from the Urals, etc etc.

But recently, I did the misfortune of searching for "Uralic" videos on youtube. And by God now I'm ever so confused.

I saw this pan Turanian video, now I dont know if this is propaganda or if its actually something the majority of Hungarians believe in. The video links Altaic and Uralic people together, which as far as I'm aware is academically unaccepted. The bigger problem is, it says Hungarians, Turks and Mongols are part of a Turanian group, maybe similar to the broad "Indo-European" or "Afro-Asiatic" family. But Ive searched and searched, and all I got in results were sites that I couldnt trust.

So I wonder, do Hungarians think of themselves simply as European, Uralic, Finno-Ugric, etc? Or do the majority also believe in the Turanian theory?

By the way, if this was asked before, I'm very sorry.

[blogen_]

This is a complicated question. Firstly, the Turanian is only a cultural concept in Hungary: Turanian = descendants of the Eurasian nomads. For example: Hungarians, Turkish peoples, Ossetians, Mongols, etc. So, Our ancestors' culture was pagan Turanian semi nomads on the Eurasian steppe in Asia, but now we live in Europe. And now we are Christian but mostly not religious. We are Finno-ugric people, but we do not have a strong relation with their language relatives. We like our Turanian cultural relatives on the other hand. And the self-image of course are politically determined:

social-liberal minority: we are enlightened Europeans
moderate right majority: we are christian Europeans with Turanian ancestors
right and far-right minority: we are not Europeans (they are not undertaken the community with the present decadent and liberal Europeans), we are Turanians

So, the Hungarians mostly are proud of their Turanian ancestors, but they call themselves an European already.

[Sieg]

Hungarians are a Western people with a nomadic, Asian historical tradition, a quite interesting mix. However, after a thousand years in the Carpathian basin nomadic traditions are pretty much a lost heritage and Hungarian culture (by which I mostly mean the way people think) is predominantly Germanic, of course with some very individual elements.

However, the idea that perhaps assuming Christianity and thus becoming a Western people was not really a good idea is continuously present in Hungarian culture. This is accompanied by the thought that adapting Western ideas and technology and 'culture' in the Western sense of the word is not fit for Hungarians. Of course this is not the common opinion at all but it's constantly present in our literature and some political movements.
The best example for this (of course I'm mainly writing this for the other Hungarians because unfortunately there is no English translation of that book) is Kard és kasza (Sword and Scythe) by Wass Albert. This is a little like Márquez's Hundred years of solitude, a thousand years long chronicle of a Hungarian family that settles in Transylvania, wins nobility, survives through the many perils of the Middle Ages, and eventually witnesses the eclipse of Hungarian culture with the influx of Romanian immigrants and the fall of Transylvania with rampant Communism and Nazism. Just like in Márquez's novel, in every generation you can find pretty much the same characters and very similar things happen over and over again, only with a different historical context. The main message of the book is that the bringers of Western civilization - priests, the king's men, Germans - always mean trouble because they want to force upon people something that is not meant for Hungarians (or at least Transylvanians, the book makes a clear distinction between western, royal Hungary and Transylvania). Also, the protagonist family is from the so-called 'lesser nobility' which means they have land and some wealth, but they are by no means rich and they have a very close relationship to peasants and agriculture, often working on the fields themselves. Wass obviously considers this the right way and through many characters expresses the thought that 'the land belongs to those who cultivate it', and believes that the loss of Transylvania to the Romanians was because Hungarian noblemen abandoned agricultural work for pleasure in the economically advanced times of the Monarchy, trusting their fields to Romanian peasants. This book is a very good essence of what we are talking about, but no, this is not the general public opinion.

[blogen_]

Not the best idea to compare Márquez to Wass. Wass did paperbooks only, he is not a qualitative author. On the other hand, he is a typical far-right hero, and this text is a typical new far-right narrative in Hungary:

Originally Posted by Sieg

However, the idea that perhaps assuming Christianity and thus becoming a Western people was not really a good idea is continuously present in Hungarian culture. This is accompanied by the thought that adapting Western ideas and technology and 'culture' in the Western sense of the word is not fit for Hungarians. Of course this is not the common opinion at all but it's constantly present in our literature and some political movements.

The typical statements in this text: the corrupt West ruins the Magyars, since the western ideas are not compatible with the Hungarian reality.

Much Hungarian sees this now, mostly young persons. They did not see the old and strong West, only the decadent and corrupt West. Greens, gays, PC, self-hatred intellectuals, capitulations before the barbarians, colored gettos, immigrants everywhere, Cohn Bandits, etc. We did not join this West with a thousand years ago.

[Sieg]

Pretty much. Although I believe the 'corrupt West' is a fairly modern idea. Wass, for example, praises Germans very much (the first protagonist of the aforementined book admittedly took his idea of building a house from the time he was a mercenary in Germany and Italy, previously unknown in Transylvania in Wass's account). Western ideas not being compatible with 'Hungarian reality' is a very correct description of the idea though. An unbelievably stupid idea, I have to say.
The obvious corruption of the Western World (Hungary nowadays absolutely included) is so far mainly moral and not yet economic. It's still not too late to turn back the tide. Western civilization is obviously superior to everything else humanity has ever created, and even if this was dubious, it would still manifest the only set of values acceptable for us, Westerners.

As of the 'quality' of Wass, personally I love him and I believe that some of his works (Átoksori kísértetek, Tizenhárom almafa, Elvásik a veres csillag) are inevitable lectures for anyone interested in getting to know Hungary. I don't think there is a way to objectively assess the quality of an author: it's on one hand very subjective, on the other hand heavily dependent on how we set our demands of content and entertainment. Stephen King IMO is a far better author than most literary classics, for the simple fact that he is more successful in conveying his message to today's audiences.

[Vikusz]

Nowday maybe there aren't a single person who totally Hungarian. I'm sure there aren't anyone..

During the centuries all kind of nations invade Hungary. Houndred thousands of germanic,slavic people arrived in every centuries. So all this Uralic origin thing is a bit incomprehensible.

We regard ourselves as simply Europeans.

[blogen_]

Originally Posted by Vikusz

Nowday maybe there aren't a single person who totally Hungarian. I'm sure there aren't anyone..

During the centuries all kind of nations invade Hungary. Houndred thousands of germanic,slavic people arrived in every centuries. So all this Uralic origin thing is a bit incomprehensible.

We regard ourselves as simply Europeans.

This is not working in the Western Civilization! The Hungarian (or Romanian, German, Spanish) nation is not a blood question, we are not a Jews or nazis! The Hungarian nation is a historical and lingual community.

[Kuwaiti]

Thanks for your replies, gentlemen. Much is appreciated.

My only quarrel with the Turanian theory (or Pan-Turanism) is that it's based off old and ancient terms that the Persians gave to any land east of the first Persian Empire's outermost borders. That is, it referred to the deserts of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and other parts of Central Asia that were heavily occupied by Turkic tribes.

The biggest question is, did the Uralic people ever occupy that same territory?
In my opinion, the answer is no, they never did.

I've read about Finno-Ugric tribes occupying Siberia, and the surrounding areas of the Ural mountains, hence why they're given the name "Uralic" as their linguistic classification. But as far as I'm aware, most of them were positioned in the European side of the Urals (west of the mountain barrier that defined the border between Europe and Asia). And even those who were located east of the Urals were pretty much located in the Asian steppes of Siberia, not Turan.

But "Turan" is a location Iranian peoples used, most notably the Persians, to refer to the deserts of Central Asia (i.e. Turkistan) that were mostly inhabited by Turkic tribes, Persianized Turkic tribes, and linguistic relatives of the Turkic peoples (Mongols or other Altaic peoples).

So the Turanian theory is flawed, in my opinion, specifically when pan-Turanists try to promote this false 'racial' propaganda that relates Altaic and Uralic peoples together. In layman terms, the notion that Uralic languages and Altaic languages are related is (according to what I read from many people, online and in books) academically implausible. Furthermore, saying that a nation of people have their origins going back to Asia (and hence are non-European) is, in my opinion, also implausible. The reason is that we all go back to something, including the French, English and Germans all go back to Asia at some point in time. And if we wanted to go further back, we're all Africans as well. So from a philosophical point of view, sure we're all related and we all have the same ancestries. But academically speaking, the Turanian theory has linguistic, genetic and therefore ethnic obstacles to overcome. Therefore when it tries to relate different linguistic/ethnic families together purely on the basis of broad geographic definitions, it is far-fetched in my opinion.

So I was really looking more toward answers regarding Hungarian politics. Did the treaty that force Hungary into ceding its territories after choosing the wrong side during WW1 give the Magyars this social backlash toward their own neighbors?

Anyway, regarding the Ossetians, again they're an Indo-European speaking group located in the Caucasus, which isn't among the boundaries of Turan's geographic definitions.

Interesting discussion nevertheless. I'd like to hear any refutations, or if anyone wants to add a point, so feel welcome to join the discussion anytime. Thanks again for the replies.

[blogen_]

The Hungarian cultural, economical and historical turanism, and the Turkic ethnic and imperial turanism is two different thing. This is a good essay: The interplay between Turkish and Hungarian nationalism: Ottoman pan-Turkism and Hungarian turanism (1890-1918)

And the Ossetians' ancestors is Sarmatian-Alan nomads, and they are Turanian folk: they lived on the Eurasian steppe on the Turanian plain.

[Kuwaiti]

Originally Posted by blogen_

The Hungarian cultural, economical and historical turanism, and the Turkic ethnic and imperial turanism is two different thing. This is a good essay: The interplay between Turkish and Hungarian nationalism: Ottoman pan-Turkism and Hungarian turanism (1890-1918)

And the Ossetians' ancestors is Sarmatian-Alan nomads, and they are Turanian folk: they lived on the Eurasian steppe on the Turanian plain.

Yeah I heard the about Ossetians being original Alans, or "Early Iranians" as someone once used to describe them. But within the Turanian plain is a question. I always thought Turanian boundaries are limited to east of Persia, all the way across the deserts of Central Asia.

Thanks for the link.

[gallopingmajor]

Kuwati, we appreciate your interest in Hungarian origins. There were extensive and prodigious quests launched during the heyday of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to locate and discover the Magyars' origins in the East. 19th century Hungarian Romantic nationalism was inflamed and pre-occupied with that very question.

The Hungarian nation is first and foremost a question of linguistic, ... there was a very prominent aristocrat in the early to mid-19th Century, Count Steven Szecsenyi who endeavored to bring Hungary into modernity from the backwater glorified status Hungary occupied before the rise of the dualist Hungarian-Austrian Empire. Szeczenyi launched a rapid modernization programme aimed at securing Hungarians' destinies as a viable, lasting modern unified nation in the Empire>

Szecsenyi famously proclaimed: "The nation lives in its mother tongue" - i.e. the Hungarian nation primarily is identified by language instead of customary ethnic descriptions.

Kuwati, Hungarians are a composite people in Europe who first and foremost indentify with their mother tongue. Every fibre, trace and ray of race in Europe is included in the Hungarian nation today, they are the most genetically intermingled people in Europe.

The great Tatar invasion of 1242 devestated Hungary and a large portion of Magyars were killed as Hungary stood as a central European bastion of Western Christendom against the onslaught of barbarian Mongol hodes. The Kingdom was repopulated by Poles, Germans, Russians, Slavs, French, Italians during the second foundation of Hungary after the Mongols quit Hungary and the country was rebuilt.

Here's a video starring Franco Nero as Prince Arpad during the Hungarian Home Conquest of the Carpathian Basin -- the "Home Settlement". Basin:

[gallopingmajor]

Kuwati, we appreciate your interest in Hungarian origins. There were extensive and prodigious quests launched during the heyday of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to locate and discover the Magyars' origins in the East. 19th century Hungarian Romantic nationalism was inflamed and pre-occupied with that very question.

The Hungarian nation is first and foremost a question of linguistic, ... there was a very prominent aristocrat in the early to mid-19th Century, Count Steven Szecsenyi who endeavored to bring Hungary into modernity from the backwater glorified status Hungary occupied before the rise of the dualist Hungarian-Austrian Empire. Szeczenyi launched a rapid modernization programme aimed at securing Hungarians' destinies as a viable, lasting modern unified nation in the Empire>

Szecsenyi famously proclaimed: "The nation lives in its mother tongue" - i.e. the Hungarian nation primarily is identified by language instead of customary ethnic descriptions.

Kuwati, Hungarians are a composite people in Europe who first and foremost indentify with their mother tongue. Every fibre, trace and ray of race in Europe is included in the Hungarian nation today, they are the most genetically intermingled people in Europe.

The great Mongol invasion of 1242 devestated Hungary and a large portion of Magyars were killed as Hungary stood as a central European bastion of Western Christendom against the onslaught of barbarian Mongol hodes. The Kingdom of Hungary was repopulated by Poles, Germans, Russians, Slavs, French, Italians during the second foundation of Hungary after the Mongols quit Hungary and the country was rebuilt.

Here's a video starring Franco Nero as Prince Arpad during the Hungarian Home Conquest of the Carpathian Basin -- the "Home Settlement".



Hungary is still a proud equestrian nation in Europe after our 1,100 year settlement in Europe.



The conquering Hungarians come into Hungary in 896 A.D., a famous painting:

[Ubertino de Casale]

Originally Posted by blogen_

The typical statements in this text: the corrupt West ruins the Magyars, since the western ideas are not compatible with the Hungarian reality.

Much Hungarian sees this now, mostly young persons. They did not see the old and strong West, only the decadent and corrupt West. Greens, gays, PC, self-hatred intellectuals, capitulations before the barbarians, colored gettos, immigrants everywhere, Cohn Bandits, etc. We did not join this West with a thousand years ago.

Blogen this is not an issue of Hungary but whole Central Europe I would say (with the exception of neo-liberal Czech Republic). Despite Slovaks are also less religious they keen on conservative view of the culture left by historical Kingdom of Hungary and the culture we share with other nations living there (mostly Croatians, You and Germans). Even more conservative are bigot Poles
So the general opinion in Slovakia is the same. What comes from West is disgusting threat to our culture and what comes from East is barbarous.

And when Greece fell down begging for a bailout the suspicion of corrupted and falling apart West took place also on political level which reflects the general mood of the population.

[Ubertino de Casale]

Originally Posted by Vikusz

Nowday maybe there aren't a single person who totally Hungarian. I'm sure there aren't anyone..

During the centuries all kind of nations invade Hungary. Houndred thousands of germanic,slavic people arrived in every centuries. So all this Uralic origin thing is a bit incomprehensible.

We regard ourselves as simply Europeans.

True, you are the same mix as we are. With the only exception that your roots were first genetic Asiatic. And nowadays a mixture of slavic, germanic genetic roots. Same as we..

There is only lingual continuity, same as on our side. And on your side even more by Magyar language influenced by slavic languages, however also examples of clear Magyar language influence can be found in Slovak.

[blogen_]

Originally Posted by Ubertino de Casale

So the general opinion in Slovakia is the same. What comes from West is disgusting threat to our culture and what comes from East is barbarous.

No. This is the Hungarian version: What comes from West is disgusting threat to our culture and what comes from East is glorious.

Hungary withdraws from the West slowly. Orbán said it: The West loses his benefit obtained under the industrial revolution. We sail under a western flag, but an east wind blows in the global economy. Hungary now the part of the Western civilization, but if we do not change, then we are shipwrecked (with the West). Hungary has to respond.

Probably this is the part of the answer:
Kazakhstan (and not Germany) was the Hungarian cultural undersecretary's first foreign country visit.
Hungary signs railway deal with China (and not with Germany) in hope of long-term co-operation for the Hungarian railway modernisation
etc.

[blogen_]

The new national orientation's caricature in the fallen proeuropean left's newspaper:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
(Attention, you are leaving the European sector and entering the Asian sector!)

[Ubertino de Casale]

Originally Posted by blogen_

No. This is the Hungarian version: What comes from West is disgusting threat to our culture and what comes from East is glorious.

Hungary withdraws from the West slowly. Orbán said it: The West loses his benefit obtained under the industrial revolution. We sail under a western flag, but an east wind blows in the global economy. Hungary now the part of the Western civilization, but if we do not change, then we are shipwrecked (with the West). Hungary has to respond.

Probably this is the part of the answer:
Kazakhstan (and not Germany) was the Hungarian cultural undersecretary's first foreign country visit.
Hungary signs railway deal with China (and not with Germany) in hope of long-term co-operation for the Hungarian railway modernisation
etc.

what to say: then remember 1956...someone has to learn twice to become wise enough..
We and Czechs have very sceptical view on East and refusal point of view against West.

Fico also signed a draft for wide-rail construction proposal from UA- Kosice to Bratislava which was blew-off from the table by current government and criticized by whole Slovak community. And now we will make angry Brussels for the second time because refusal statement against Euro Rescue Fund is going to be passed in Parliament. Thus do not allow EU to update Treaty of the function of the European Union. In favour of banks...of course..

[Windblower]

This is the Hungarian version: What comes from West is disgusting threat to our culture and what comes from East is glorious.

Which is another choice of being blind, of course.

All western countries used us as far, as it was cost effective - their new toys are now called India and China - production must be cheap, quality lost its importance. Now the first companies arrived to us at early 90's are closed and moved toward the Orient.

From this point of view i do not see any difference between "western" or chinese/russian capital. All wants great profit under law investion. This is business-logic.

[blogen_]

Originally Posted by Ubertino de Casale

what to say: then remember 1956...someone has to learn twice to become wise enough..

See, this is the difference between us! You are Slovak, you are European, only European. But, we are Hungarians, we are Eurasians, Asians in Europe, or Europeans and Asians, or Asian origin Europeans, etc. Asia means the horror to you, but the glorious past and future for us. Asia the evil in the European narrative, the Huns, Magyars, Mongols, Soviets and now the Chinese concurrency came from Asia. But look at the underlined text! We have choice. You are European everything else for you on nerve. But we know it that Asia is beautiful, developed and highly civilized, we came from there and our identity is dual. A cultural aversion does not keep us at a distance from Asia.

And Europe's protection and the protection of the European ideas was the largest mistake of our history. The most considerable examples:

1242 - Hungarian-Mongol war: the Mongols offer an alliance against Europe. We reject it. Our reward: the Austrians stab Hungary and my Cumanian allies in the back while we battle against the Mongolians. ~40% of the Hungarian population was murdered and 60% of the country was destroyed. Thanks Germans!

15-17th century - Turkish wars: Hungary defends against the Ottomans in the protection of the Christianity. We wait for the western help until two hundred years, 60% of the Hungarian population was murdered and 80% of the Country was destroyed. Thanks Europe!

1914-21 - First War against the Terror: Balkan terrorists murder our crown prince, we launch war against the state supporting the terrorists, against the Russian threat and we favour united Europe's plan (Mitteleuropa). But the peripherial coalition wins against the central powers and our country is shared out between Balkan folks. Thanks Western Europeans! (later the Little Entente was big help for the West against the Nazis. )

1939-45 - the western-Soviet compromises. Firstly the German-Soviet pact (MRP), secondly the British-Soviet pact (Jalta), and thirdly the partition of Europe. The peripheral powers secondly partitioned the continent, Hungary was a soviet colony. Thanks Germans, British and Americans!

1956 - the Hungarians rise up against the Bolshevik rule. The western radios promise help in case of a rebellion since years. But the help does not come. The Hungarian freedom fighters fight for the western freedom firmly, but the Soviet superiority wins. Budapest is ruined. Thanks America!

now - Hungary was freed, the soviet troops marched out, Hungary did democracy. But this is not the democracy of our dreams this is a semi-colonial status, this is the Franco-German alliance's continental power. If the Hungarian government shields the Hungarian interests, whole Western Europe (mostly Germany) turns against us. See the hysteria around the media law! Or the western hypocricy in the Hungarian minority rights. Thanks EU!

So the Hungarian western relation is arguable. Many good thing was, and there are many bad things in this relation. Superb culture and technology with many betrayals and letdown. Thanks for the Christianity, the Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque art and the industrial revolution, but now Europe already is empty. And China never reviled our homeland, China never partitioned Hungary, China are simply friendly, and not hostile and disgusting like the present West. And China will be the world's next superpower, so China better choice at anything what the today's West can offer.

[Bikes]

Originally Posted by blogen_

See, this is the difference between us! You are Slovak, you are European, only European. But, we are Hungarians, we are Eurasians, Asians in Europe, or Europeans and Asians, or Asian origin Europeans, etc. Asia means the horror to you, but the glorious past and future for us. Asia the evil in the European narrative, the Huns, Magyars, Mongols, Soviets and now the Chinese concurrency came from Asia. But look at the underlined text! We have choice. You are European everything else for you on nerve. But we know it that Asia is beautiful, developed and highly civilized, we came from there and our identity is dual. A cultural aversion does not keep us at a distance from Asia.

You must be kidding