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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:09 PM   #21
Penn's Woods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
I saw a picture of sign that sead "Do not turn on red" or something and it was a pretty small sign
It's really not that small, and I'd guess it's a standard size since they seem to be the same everywhere.

[departs to conduct image search]

Of course an American driver who wants to turn right is at an intersection with a red light is sufficiently used to this that he'll look for the sign....

[returns from image search]

Okay, I'm not a sign geek (my interest in this stuff is geographical, I don't know or much care about things like specs.), so I don't claim expertise. And I can go years without looking at the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices. But in the interest of research....

HERE is the MUTCD (Federal regulator) page on No Turn on Red signs (and similar ones)

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2003r1...9_longdesc.htm

I was mistaken about them all looking alike, but the one you see most often is "R10-11a." The guidelines do say that they're supposed to be placed as close to the traffic light as possible, like THIS:

http://www.longislandphotoblog.com/2...o-turn-on-red/

And as I say, if you're intending to turn right, you'll be looking for it.

Here's something interesting from New York, apparently at LaGuardia airport which obviously would be full of out-of-town drivers who don't know the city's different about this:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4082/...5cb60fe90c.jpg
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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:21 PM   #22
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I guess so! If they did that here though, most people wouldn't stop unless there was traffic coming, people in Europe do California stops (I think that's what it's called) at stop signs for example'
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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:46 PM   #23
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I'm surprised no one mentioned that a "right turn on red" is legal in Germany, if a sign permits it. The rules are pretty much the same, you have to come to a complete stop and have to yield to other cars, pedestrians, etc. The only difference is that it's a pictorial sign mounted on a traffic light. I'm not sure how frequent those signs actually are and I guess it varies from city to city, but I've seen quite a few of them in Munich, Dresden, and iirc Berlin.




It may look very similar to the picture below, but it's not the same thing.
(edit: Apparently, in Russia, it is in fact the same as the German sign above, and you'd have to yield to other traffic when the green arrow lights up. Not sure about Croatia. In Austria, otoh, in the picture below you can turn right without having to worry about any cross traffic)

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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:49 PM   #24
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btw, it's also mentioned in this Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red
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Old April 18th, 2011, 05:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman159 View Post
It may look very similar to the picture below, but it's not the same thing.
(edit: Apparently, in Russia, it is in fact the same as the German sign above, and you'd have to yield to other traffic when the green arrow lights up. Not sure about Croatia. In Austria, otoh, in the picture below you can turn right without having to worry about any cross traffic)
In Estonia, if the green arrow lights up, you can drive in that direction but have to yield to other traffic. But if the green arrow isn't lit, even when the main traffic signal is green, you may not drive in the direction shown by the arrow.(in this rare case the arrow is pointing straight ahead):
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Old April 18th, 2011, 05:39 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman159 View Post
I'm surprised no one mentioned that a "right turn on red" is legal in Germany, if a sign permits it. The rules are pretty much the same, you have to come to a complete stop and have to yield to other cars, pedestrians, etc. The only difference is that it's a pictorial sign mounted on a traffic light. I'm not sure how frequent those signs actually are and I guess it varies from city to city, but I've seen quite a few of them in Munich, Dresden, and iirc Berlin.
I live in Munich but I never saw such signs. But I don't drive much within the city...
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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
In Estonia, if the green arrow lights up, you can drive in that direction but have to yield to other traffic. But if the green arrow isn't lit, even when the main traffic signal is green, you may not drive in the direction shown by the arrow.(in this rare case the arrow is pointing straight ahead):
If there's a solid green light, and the arrow's off, you can't move in the direction shown by the arrow? How can you tell what direction the arrow's indicating if it's off?
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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:12 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by snowman159 View Post
Not sure about Croatia. In Austria, otoh, in the picture below you can turn right without having to worry about any cross traffic)
in HR there is the same as in A. you don't have to worry for oncoming traffic from left because when additional green arrow for right is turned on, the traffic from the left is blocked. however, sometimes you should watch for pedestrians who get green, in most cases you cross their way, and they have priority, of course. on newr intersections there are blikning yellow lights with pictogram of pedestrian (warns you that you cross their way), but still more often are old without that warning.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:13 PM   #29
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It's a good thing I never got a chance to drive in Estonia or Russia. I might not have made it back alive.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:48 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf View Post

Right turns on Red: In Canada, with the exception of Quebec**
...
** With the exception of a very few places, it is ILLEGAL to turn right on a red light in this province, unless otherwise posted, or a right turn arrow is showing.
This is no longer the case (since early last decade), so you can now turn right on red in Quebec unless a sign tells you not to. The only place where right turns on red are prohibited by default is on Montreal Island. This is similar to the prohibition in NYC.

For more information:
http://www.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/portal/pag...oite_feu_rouge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
It's really not that small, and I'd guess it's a standard size since they seem to be the same everywhere.

[departs to conduct image search]

Of course an American driver who wants to turn right is at an intersection with a red light is sufficiently used to this that he'll look for the sign....
...
In Canada we use a different sign for this purpose, which, IMHO, is better (doesn't require reading text):


I was actually surprised to see textual signs for this purpose when I drove in Long Island (I thought the US would be using the same sign).

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
in HR there is the same as in A. you don't have to worry for oncoming traffic from left because when additional green arrow for right is turned on, the traffic from the left is blocked. however, sometimes you should watch for pedestrians who get green, in most cases you cross their way, and they have priority, of course. on newr intersections there are blikning yellow lights with pictogram of pedestrian (warns you that you cross their way), but still more often are old without that warning.
Those flashing yellow lights with pedestrian pictograms inside are on most big intersections in Israel.

In Canada we also do have right green arrows, which are in addition to the "right turn on red" rule. When you see an arrow here in any direction, you always have exclusive right of way into that direction (whether right or left), which means that everyone else is facing a red light, including pedestrians.

A right-facing green arrow in Canada (at least in Ontario) is not very common, but you can sometimes see it on big intersections, and it often appears together with left turn arrows when other straight-through traffic has a red.

Several other interesting things in Ontario, Canada:

A flashing green light is called an "advance green light" and is essentially the same as a solid green light together with a green left turn arrow. When the green light rapidly flashes, one may drive to any direction. In theory, turning right might require yielding to pedestrians, though AFAIK when the green light is flashing, the pedestrian signals are usually red. Still a good idea to check.
Such signals are becoming increasingly rare, however, and are being replaced by left turn arrows. They can be quite confusing because in several other countries a flashing green actually means the yellow is coming, and AFAIK in British Columbia they mean something totally different.

We have transit priority signals. I'm not sure if this exists in the US - I know that variations of these are common in Europe. In fact, most likely they were imported from Europe. They look like this:


However, those are actually not that common. In Toronto, we use smaller black lights for transit, compared to the yellow ones for cars:


I'm actually not sure if these black Toronto signals are even documented anywhere. I can't find them in the Ontario Driver's Handbook.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 06:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by TheCat View Post
In Canada we use a different sign for this purpose, which, IMHO, is better (doesn't require reading text):


I was actually surprised to see textual signs for this purpose when I drove in Long Island (I thought the US would be using the same sign).
You amended your "less ambiguous" to "doesn't require reading text" before I could say I wasn't sure it was less ambiguous. ;-)
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Old April 18th, 2011, 07:00 PM   #32
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I did I realized that, if you know English, this statement would definitely be wrong.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 07:11 PM   #33
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Now talking of ambiguous text, the first time I encountered that flashing green was in or near Granby, Quebec - I'd gotten off Autoroute 10 to find something to eat - in 1988, and the explanation was in French. Even if my French, at that point, had been up to understanding what "feu vert clignotant" meant, I'm not sure I would have gotten it. And when I was in Ontario later on that trip and saw "Advanced Green When Flashing," that didn't mean anything to me either.

And I suppose "No Turn on Red" is meaningless to a native speaker of English from a country where turns on red aren't permitted ("'No Turn on Red'? Well, of course you can't turn on red! What do they mean by that?") Anywhere in the world, a driver from another jurisdiction is going to have some learning to do, and the jurisdictions will have some educating to do. I suppose even within Europe, there are quirks from one country to the next. Whether it's realistic to expect, say, a Frenchman who's about to drive to Germany to spend a half-hour on line before he goes reading up on German sign quirks, or stop at the border and read a pamphlet helpfully published in French by the German government, I don't know. But legally, the burden is on the driver to learn what he or she will need to know. But part of the reason I started this thread was to get an awareness of this sort of thing out there (I do anticipate getting to Montreal this year, and I thought that no-turn-on-red was the default position but I wasn't sure.) Which, by the way, is why I think text-only signs are less big a deal than some people seem to think: is it really harder for a non-English speaker to memorize a few phrases like "one way" and "do not enter" than it is for an American in Europe to memorize a few signs that actually aren't as obvious as Europeans may think they are? But, I'm rambling.

[steps off soapbox, which I really didn't mean to step onto.]
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Old April 18th, 2011, 07:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
If there's a solid green light, and the arrow's off, you can't move in the direction shown by the arrow? How can you tell what direction the arrow's indicating if it's off?
The extra green arrow is almost exclusively used for right turns and never for left turns, AFAIK. The photo I posted is the only straight-pointing green arrow that I know of and it's always on when the main traffic signal is green. Besides, you cannot turn right at this intersection. Don't worry, however, this particular traffic signals confuses even those people who drive there often!

Moreover, I don't know of any intersections built in the last decade or so that use the extra green arrow. Probably because it's more dangerous - it doesn't really give the driver priority. Nowadays we prefer the traffic signal with arrows because it ensures the driver that he/she can make the turn safely.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 10:02 PM   #35
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To be honest, Penn, most people in the UK know that the US allows turns on red, the US is known here for fat stupid people and turns on reds. (I'm not saying that Americans are fat and stupid, but thats the reputation, or better stereotype )
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Old April 18th, 2011, 10:55 PM   #36
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Right turns on red are customary for bicycles in The Netherlands. It depends on the municipality whether or not there are signs to indicate this (often there are). I'm not sure if it is officially legal if there is no sign, but it is custom and not enforced/fined.

I think the large number of bicycles and bike paths on the right side of the road are also a big reason that right turns on red are not a very good idea for The Netherlands.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEm31...layer_embedded
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Old April 19th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #37
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No left turn on red in the UK, unless there's a green arrow pointing in that direction. I really do prefer it that way.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 12:46 AM   #38
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Those are illegal here too.
and how are they going to prove that ?
they will "inspect" your phone for special app ? I don't think so
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Old April 19th, 2011, 01:35 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
To be honest, Penn, most people in the UK know that the US allows turns on red, the US is known here for fat stupid people and turns on reds. (I'm not saying that Americans are fat and stupid, but thats the reputation, or better stereotype )
Quite all right: you're known for bad food and worse teeth. :-P

And, on topic, 30 years ago when I was first old enough to drive and first went to Europe, Europe had the reputation here of being a dangerous place to drive. I was honestly surprised to learn that fatality rates are higher here.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 01:52 AM   #40
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Why is Europe so strict about turning on red? What is the point of making traffic sit at intersection while cross traffic is clear? Sure it makes sense in some cases if streets meet a wierd angle or there are real traffic/pedistrian issues, but it's stupid to have blanket prohibition.


And speaking of driving customs we have the Michigan Left that eliminates direct left turns on divided highways and always seems drive out of state drivers crazy.

http://www.michiganhighways.org/inde...igan_left.html

Last edited by urbanlover; April 19th, 2011 at 02:35 AM.
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