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Old June 29th, 2011, 12:16 AM   #581
kix111
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True, just like how Van Gogh's artwork was worthless until he died, which is sad really.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 12:34 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by kix111 View Post
And if GIFC was built in NYC and EBS was built in Guangzhou i think the result will most likely to be the opposite.

And when did he say that winning ctbuh was the sole reason it was better than EBS? From what he was saying it feels more like a reinforcement of the qualities he described of GIFC than anything else. He actually added this statement using "moreover" which you did not even bother to quote.
He didn't say it was any kind of reason for the GIFC being better than the ESB, and I didn't say he did. I think you'll find I 'quoted' his entire statement, I just didn't put the 'moreover' in bold. What I took issue with was the idea that being judged as the best tower built during one year in one continent makes it one of the best in the world, which whilst you can still think it is one of the best, this does not prove.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 03:10 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by Bruce.Tenmile View Post
He didn't say it was any kind of reason for the GIFC being better than the ESB, and I didn't say he did. I think you'll find I 'quoted' his entire statement, I just didn't put the 'moreover' in bold. What I took issue with was the idea that being judged as the best tower built during one year in one continent makes it one of the best in the world, which whilst you can still think it is one of the best, this does not prove.
well said. in terms of esb vs gifc, esb beats gifc in so many ways. gifc is just a bland building, a way that guangzhou was trying to be recognized by the world, but didnt really succeed. i live in the US and visit the UK frequently to see family, and in both countries there are very, very few people who have ever even heard of guangzhou.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 04:58 AM   #584
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Hi all.

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Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
Interesting take. Given that association you've made between the Burj and 9/11, what is you're emotional reaction to the construction happening at the World Trade Center site? Will a rebuild at that particular location hold as visceral a connection as the new pinnacle of Dubai?
Hi Gunner.

I don't really associate the Burj with 9/11 at all. As a scraper lover from childhood I remember seeing pics of the newly completed WTC as a kid. I liked them right off and was amazed at the size and height of them. 9/11 was one of the most profound events of my lifetime. To have any of the world's tallest structures destroyed would have had the same effect - the fact it was the WTC makes it no more or less traumatic for me. The event left me feeling we may not have any more WTB's or WTS's in my lifetime. When I found this forum in 2004 (I joined in 2006) and read about the BK I was very happy. Happy for man's rebound from the destruction and happy for the the next WTB to be the next WTS and to have it so much taller than the last. Also to have the first freestanding structure that was taller than any guyed mast in my lifetime was fantastic.

So, to answer your question - no, it won't hold the same connection as the BK for me. I am happy to see them rebuild and I like the design - so much so that I chose WTC1 as one of the projects I watch and collect data of.

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I won't bog the conversation on one structure, but may I ask then what of the design details do you consider the most unique, innovative or special about the project, apart from the efforts to reach such height?
Here's just a few - most are not unique as I posted before.
- 30 tiers with all but a few at the top having a setback / terrace.
- a foundation with piles not going down to bedrock (skin friction)
- the top platform that one can be out in the elements a half mile above the ground.
- not about the project but a big one for me is all the info obtained during construction - many gigs worth of drawings, planning, schedules, so much more. A real piss off to Emaar no doubt. I don't have even 1 % of the data on any other project, completed or not and I know I probably never will. The fact it is pertaining to the next WTS is even better. It also allowed me to make my 13 page plan (through 6 versions) and my tier methodology and some other things - many enjoyable hours spent compiling and crosschecking.
- so many more aspects - I could go on and on.

Any other particulars would have to be asked specifically. I have answered so many questions and helped many with their drawings (including the heavy hitters on the forum) with accuracy - happy to help where I can.

I like the architecture aspect of scrapers but project management is bigger for me. Height is also a biggie with me and lets face it - we're all here on a skyscraper forum, not a building forum.

I guess the main answer to your query is all the data I have on the BK goes a long way to making it my fave.


Ray.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 05:19 AM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury View Post
Here's just a few - most are not unique as I posted before.
- 30 tiers with all but a few at the top having a setback / terrace.
- a foundation with piles not going down to bedrock (skin friction)
- the top platform that one can be out in the elements a half mile above the ground.
- not about the project but a big one for me is all the info obtained during construction - many gigs worth of drawings, planning, schedules, so much more. A real piss off to Emaar no doubt. I don't have even 1 % of the data on any other project, completed or not and I know I probably never will. The fact it is pertaining to the next WTS is even better. It also allowed me to make my 13 page plan (through 6 versions) and my tier methodology and some other things - many enjoyable hours spent compiling and crosschecking.
- so many more aspects - I could go on and on.

Any other particulars would have to be asked specifically. I have answered so many questions and helped many with their drawings (including the heavy hitters on the forum) with accuracy - happy to help where I can.

I like the architecture aspect of scrapers but project management is bigger for me. Height is also a biggie with me and lets face it - we're all here on a skyscraper forum, not a building forum.

I guess the main answer to your query is all the data I have on the BK goes a long way to making it my fave.


Ray.
Hey Ray, just curious; are you currently doing the same kind of research for Shanghai Tower?
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Old June 29th, 2011, 05:48 AM   #586
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Well, as much as I'm still undecided, ESB looks great all the time, GIFC only looks great under special conditions (for me, anyways).

Seeing the comparison diagram, I thought GIFC's height advantage would be more impressive.

Judging from how the competition currently stands, Burj will beat BoC, Petronas will beat ESB and Burj will beat Petronas. Can't wait to see what this competition will look like in 2015 I'm so happy so many skyscrapers are being built!

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Old June 29th, 2011, 06:38 AM   #587
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Well, as much as I'm still undecided, ESB looks great all the time, GIFC only looks great under special conditions (for me, anyways).
The best conditions to see the GZ IFC are at night, from a boat on the Pearl river and with a drink in your hand.

Seriously, it is a very nice looking building - but IMO unless you absolutely hate art deco you can't say it's nicer than the ESB.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 06:56 AM   #588
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Hi all.

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Originally Posted by lkiller123 View Post
Hey Ray, just curious; are you currently doing the same kind of research for Shanghai Tower?
Hi Killer.

I have chosen ST as one of the projects I watch and collect pics and info of.
I save any and all I come across for all the projects I 'watch'.

I don't have near the amount of info on any other project except the BK but I would be happy if that would change.


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Old June 29th, 2011, 08:12 AM   #589
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Just seen this.

Whilst it was interesting, the only problem I have is the pictures used for certain buildings.

For instance, I do think the Petronas is better than 2IFC.

But the 2IFC is absolutely gorgeous, especially at dusk/night. There is no way that the voting results, as they are currently, should be so divided.

The pic used for 2IFC is really not that flattering.

Like I said though, having said that, Petronas deserves to win this battle - but not by the margin it currently is.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 08:14 AM   #590
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And it's the same with the GIFC and ESB.

For me, the ESB is a CLEAR winner here - but regardless of votes, that really isn't a flattering pic for the GIFC.

And again with the BOC. In fact, I'm surprised the BOC beat Chrysler, based on those two pics.

It's Hong Kong - known for it's dusk/night-time skyline. Pray why are we using images of buildings in Hong Kong in broad daylight?
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Old June 29th, 2011, 09:52 AM   #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _00_deathscar View Post
And it's the same with the GIFC and ESB.

For me, the ESB is a CLEAR winner here - but regardless of votes, that really isn't a flattering pic for the GIFC.

And again with the BOC. In fact, I'm surprised the BOC beat Chrysler, based on those two pics.

It's Hong Kong - known for it's dusk/night-time skyline. Pray why are we using images of buildings in Hong Kong in broad daylight?
Well we're all surprised that the BOC beat Chrysler. The Chrysler was ahead, which it should have been, and then out of nowhere, the BOC skipped ahead a few hundred votes. It's very odd because China is a very small country with a very chilled out attitude to perceived threats....
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Old June 29th, 2011, 10:36 AM   #592
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most people think esb is a big,gigantic and stand tall but if we compare both size,gifc is bigger,more gigantic and more awesome..it is because the scale of the building in those cities..here are the diagram..esb look small and gifc look so big and outstanding..from those diagram,i can say that gifc is better building than esb futhermore,it look glassy,unique,modern,flawless.moreover,it just win best asia supertal 2011..thats mean ctbuh recognised them as one of the best supertall on earth..
In this diagram, the ESB looks a lot like the building that they have in Russia, but just a taller, thinner version

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepblue01 View Post
If someone wanted to purposefully dishonor a tower like BK, there are millions of excuses they can use. But height and 'needle' looking design are the first two that comes to peoples mind.

Just look at Jin Mao and Petronas, I find these two towers modern yet have a lot of historical significance, well designed, tall and iconic, yet if people were to find something negative about it, there are bound to be reasons/excuses.

Jin Mao: ' The cladding is too outdated'. 'I don't like the pagoda design'. 'Its just not my type of tower'

Petronas" 'the sky bridge looks tacky'. 'Its spire is too tall'. 'don't like the surrounding buildings'

The lists can go on and on.....

I thought you would have known that by now
Your'e quite right, however you need to understand that maybe it might be true what they are saying. Some people might not like the pagoda design on Jin Mao or the sky bridge on the Petronas. You can't just jump to conclusions.

On the other hand though, Chinese buildings will be subjected to a lot more discrimination than other countries, however until you truly know who actually discriminates and those that genuinely dislike the buildings, you can't start judging others.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #593
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He didn't say it was any kind of reason for the GIFC being better than the ESB, and I didn't say he did. I think you'll find I 'quoted' his entire statement, I just didn't put the 'moreover' in bold. What I took issue with was the idea that being judged as the best tower built during one year in one continent makes it one of the best in the world, which whilst you can still think it is one of the best, this does not prove.
i said gifc is one of the best supertall in the world,not the best supertall in the world..both phrase also seeing almost same but bring a big diffrent meaning..please be clear and stop your pathetic atitude..i cant see you change after all..
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Old June 29th, 2011, 02:19 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by Bruce.Tenmile View Post
He didn't say it was any kind of reason for the GIFC being better than the ESB, and I didn't say he did. I think you'll find I 'quoted' his entire statement, I just didn't put the 'moreover' in bold. What I took issue with was the idea that being judged as the best tower built during one year in one continent makes it one of the best in the world, which whilst you can still think it is one of the best, this does not prove.
This is the prove why i said this is one of the most beautiful building in the world.This is one of the profesional judge think about the building..or else youre clever and have more experience than him..

The building has an elegant simplicity in both form and structure, with the diagrid giving depth, strength and character to the building. It is also great to see the British adept at designing supertall buildings!
Antony Wood, Awards Juror, CTBUH Executive Director, Illinois Instiute of Technology
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Old June 29th, 2011, 02:26 PM   #595
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well said. in terms of esb vs gifc, esb beats gifc in so many ways. gifc is just a bland building, a way that guangzhou was trying to be recognized by the world, but didnt really succeed. i live in the US and visit the UK frequently to see family, and in both countries there are very, very few people who have ever even heard of guangzhou.
please clear that this is not a most famous building competition or world favourite supertall..this is a best supertall competition..judging this building by their popularity clearly show enough why most people vote esb and not gifc and its not the right way to vote for this competition..
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Old June 29th, 2011, 03:09 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by ben_23 View Post
please clear that this is not a most famous building competition or world favourite supertall..this is a best supertall competition..judging this building by their popularity clearly show enough why most people vote esb and not gifc and its not the right way to vote for this competition..
I'll beg to differ. This is a popularity contest because the voting pool has such a wide range of expertise in the matter and, more importantly, the criteria that would be necessitated to make this a true "best supertall" competition would be highly detailed and complex. You could not possibly have an honest "best of" competition and yet leave it open to voting to simply anyone on a public message board, where so many people aren't even architects or engineers.

So while most people aren't voting for a building simply because it's more famous, clearly many people are voting for some sentimental reason (it's the one they know, they like the city, etc) or for purely simplistic reasons ("it's taller"). This isn't wrong for this type of contest, but it's hardly the grounds for a "best of" competition.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 03:38 PM   #597
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I'll beg to differ. This is a popularity contest because the voting pool has such a wide range of expertise in the matter and, more importantly, the criteria that would be necessitated to make this a true "best supertall" competition would be highly detailed and complex. You could not possibly have an honest "best of" competition and yet leave it open to voting to simply anyone on a public message board, where so many people aren't even architects or engineers.

So while most people aren't voting for a building simply because it's more famous, clearly many people are voting for some sentimental reason (it's the one they know, they like the city, etc) or for purely simplistic reasons ("it's taller"). This isn't wrong for this type of contest, but it's hardly the grounds for a "best of" competition.
yes you are right,this vote is open for public and most of the voters are not architect,but the title clearly show what is the competition is about and the rest is depend to the voter to judge and which criteria they see to get this title...no one of us know what each others voting criteria..every voters have their own judgement of the title "best supertall"..and i just want to say that to vote for most famous building as best supertall is not the right way..voters need to think cleverly even if they are not architect but i strongly believe that they are supertalls lovers same with me..we cannot change the title just because of a few voters said they love famous building..the title is there and its all depend to voters..no one right and no one wrong but title never wrong,it tell us what we should based on..,diffrent people diffrent taste..just dont vote because of their popularity but look inside all of them,the inovation,technology,creation,material,constuction,design,design method and many more..
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Old June 29th, 2011, 03:57 PM   #598
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well said. in terms of esb vs gifc, esb beats gifc in so many ways. gifc is just a bland building, a way that guangzhou was trying to be recognized by the world, but didnt really succeed. i live in the US and visit the UK frequently to see family, and in both countries there are very, very few people who have ever even heard of guangzhou.


This isn't country or city competition... Please do not confuse others.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 04:07 PM   #599
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@ ben_23

The title may say "best" but the process and the forum are not designed to filter the votes based on the considerations you've cited. Thus we can't truly recognize the winner as "the best" because we know full well a % of the votes were based on other criteria.

It is what it is and that's fine.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 04:11 PM   #600
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i said gifc is one of the best supertall in the world,not the best supertall in the world..both phrase also seeing almost same but bring a big diffrent meaning..please be clear and stop your pathetic atitude..i cant see you change after all..
I know what you said, and if you carefully read both of my posts referencing your's, you'd notice that I correctly ited that you had called the GIFC ONE OF the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_23 View Post
This is the prove why i said this is one of the most beautiful building in the world.This is one of the profesional judge think about the building..or else youre clever and have more experience than him..

The building has an elegant simplicity in both form and structure, with the diagrid giving depth, strength and character to the building. It is also great to see the British adept at designing supertall buildings!
Antony Wood, Awards Juror, CTBUH Executive Director, Illinois Instiute of Technology
Look dude, if your opinion is that the GIFC is one of the best buildings in the world, all power to you, that is fine, but you need to understand that just because one group of people voted it the best building completed in one year, this means exactly what it says. They thought it was the best out of all the buildings completed in Asia in 2010. The same group could also place it outside the top 100 all time. It depends how great the competition was in Asia in 2010/11.

Nobody needs proof for their opinions. You like what you like and you don't need to cite someone agreeing with you to make your thoughts valid.

Also, again, you are under a mistaken impression that one knowledgeable man stating how great a building is somehow makes it one of the greatest ever. He did not use the words 'Greatest Ever', or even the word 'Greatest'. He thinks it's a very nice tower, and I agree, but he did not say it was one of the best ever.
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