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Old July 3rd, 2011, 04:39 PM   #701
Jan
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@Pansori: I think you're being a bit cocky here mate...
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 04:46 PM   #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
There were two points I have been observing in this competition which, as a skyscraper and architecture fan, have disappointed me.

The first one is, of course, fake voting. That is self explanatory.

However the other thing that leaves me surprised is that people don't actually vote for the qualities of the building from an rchitectural point of view but rather its 'image' and 'icon'. I have been a skyscraper fan since I was about 5 and so I am today more than 20 years on. I have never understood why some skyscrapers are rated so highly by so many people. I mean that massive and tasteless spire on ESB is horrendous! It was built solely for the purpose of height and wasn't even implemented in a tasteful manner (which, e.g., Petronas did much better). I think it is good to distinguish what is truly great architecture from 'image' and 'icon' created by popular media and advertising yet the actual architecture is tasteless and unsophisticated. That, to be honest, disappoints me even more than the fake voting because delusional opinions are more dangerous than the fake ones.

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Old July 3rd, 2011, 05:07 PM   #703
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I think all semifinal is really amazing building.. They really deserve it...
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 05:18 PM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
@Pansori: I think you're being a bit cocky here mate...
Just expressed my opinion. No offence intended because I do honestly think so and so I did long before this or any other competition throughout my experience as a true fan of skyscrapers. Just thought this was a good place to put it.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 05:48 PM   #705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
There were two points I have been observing in this competition which, as a skyscraper and architecture fan, have disappointed me.

The first one is, of course, fake voting. That is self explanatory.

However the other thing that leaves me surprised is that people don't actually vote for the qualities of the building from an rchitectural point of view but rather its 'image' and 'icon'. I have been a skyscraper fan since I was about 5 and so I am today more than 20 years on. I have never understood why some skyscrapers are rated so highly by so many people. I mean that massive and tasteless spire on ESB is horrendous! It was built solely for the purpose of height and wasn't even implemented in a tasteful manner (which, e.g., Petronas did much better). I think it is good to distinguish what is truly great architecture from 'image' and 'icon' created by popular media and advertising yet the actual architecture is tasteless and unsophisticated. That, to be honest, disappoints me even more than the fake voting because delusional opinions are more dangerous than the fake ones.
The spire on ESB was meant to be a mooring and terminal for airships. However, unforeseen updrafts on a building of that size made it dangerous for the airships, so it was never used other than a few tests. It really wouldn't have mattered anyway because the decline in airships was only like five years off.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:14 PM   #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
There were two points I have been observing in this competition which, as a skyscraper and architecture fan, have disappointed me.

The first one is, of course, fake voting. That is self explanatory.

However the other thing that leaves me surprised is that people don't actually vote for the qualities of the building from an rchitectural point of view but rather its 'image' and 'icon'. I have been a skyscraper fan since I was about 5 and so I am today more than 20 years on. I have never understood why some skyscrapers are rated so highly by so many people. I mean that massive and tasteless spire on ESB is horrendous! It was built solely for the purpose of height and wasn't even implemented in a tasteful manner (which, e.g., Petronas did much better). I think it is good to distinguish what is truly great architecture from 'image' and 'icon' created by popular media and advertising yet the actual architecture is tasteless and unsophisticated. That, to be honest, disappoints me even more than the fake voting because delusional opinions are more dangerous than the fake ones.
Like some others, you are kind of saying that if anyone likes the ESB, it can only be because of it's status as an idol, not because they actually like it. Dude, just because you don't like it, don't get all high and mighty saying that it upsets you that other people disagree with you. If I were to say 'It upsets me that people have voted for the Petronas Towers simple because they are fairly new', or something stupid like that, you'd be pretty pissed.

The 'spire' on the ESB, most would say is an integral part of the design, and fits in far better with the rest of the tower than most needles atop many other buildings. It's not traditional, and actually houses habitable space, so I'm not even sure we should call it a spire, but that's what we call it, so there ya go. The antenna, on the other hand, is really very disgusting, and does spoil the overall look of the tower for me.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:28 PM   #707
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Originally Posted by Bruce.Tenmile View Post
Like some others, you are kind of saying that if anyone likes the ESB, it can only be because of it's status as an idol, not because they actually like it. Dude, just because you don't like it, don't get all high and mighty saying that it upsets you that other people disagree with you. If I were to say 'It upsets me that people have voted for the Petronas Towers simple because they are fairly new', or something stupid like that, you'd be pretty pissed.

The 'spire' on the ESB, most would say is an integral part of the design, and fits in far better with the rest of the tower than most needles atop many other buildings. It's not traditional, and actually houses habitable space, so I'm not even sure we should call it a spire, but that's what we call it, so there ya go. The antenna, on the other hand, is really very disgusting, and does spoil the overall look of the tower for me.
Fair enough. Can't disagree with that. Nor that I am trying to imply that I have to be 100% right. Just expressing what I think. I'm trying to look at it from a more rationalized point of view and actually see what specific qualities a building has instead where it is or in how many movies it was shown or how 'famous' it is. If we look back into the 1930's buildings like ESB or Chrysler were hardly seen as showcases of architectural sophistication or stylishness. They emerged as 'icons' because they were tall (in fact, the tallest) and demonstrated the economic power of the world's economically and militarily most powerful nation. That is true and largely remains true to this day. In the modern days I would compare it to the likes of Burj Khalifa i.e. concentrating not on the actual architectural idea but rather to impress and amaze by means other than architectural skill, sophistication or style. In this case it is height and a massive spire (familiar? ).

However from a purely architectural point of view... well, it's just a tall building which is quite bland and not something I would be interested to describe in an academic work were I to write one.

Then of course we may get even further into a philosophical discussion about the purpose of architecture and buildings and what is more important: architectural sophistication per se or impression? Skyscrapers are often built to impress, some would say. Anyay, I hope you see the point I am trying to make. I just don't like people screaming around "hey this is amazing because it's ESB". If so then I ask why and how you assess it?
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:42 PM   #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Fair enough. Can't disagree with that. Nor that I am trying to imply that I have to be 100% right. Just expressing what I think. I'm trying to look at it from a more rationalized point of view and actually see what specific qualities a building has instead where it is or in how many movies it was shown or how 'famous' it is. If we look back into the 1930's buildings like ESB or Chrysler were hardly seen as showcases of architectural sophistication or stylishness. They emerged as 'icons' because they were tall (in fact, the tallest) and demonstrated the economic power of the world's economically and militarily most powerful nation. That is true and largely remains true to this day. In the modern days I would compare it to the likes of Burj Khalifa i.e. concentrating not on the actual architectural idea but rather to impress and amaze by means other than architectural skill, sophistication or style. In this case it is height and a massive spire (familiar? ).

However from a purely architectural point of view... well, it's just a tall building which is quite bland and not something I would be interested to describe in an academic work were I to write one.

Then of course we may get even further into a philosophical discussion about the purpose of architecture and buildings and what is more important: architectural sophistication per se or impression? Skyscrapers are often built to impress, some would say. Anyay, I hope you see the point I am trying to make. I just don't like people screaming around "hey this is amazing because it's ESB". If so then I ask why and how you assess it?
I understand your point, but I don't claim to be an architectural genius, and I would think that's true for the vast majority of people on this site. As such, it's incredibly hard to objectively say 'this has merit and this doesn't' unless you are a true student of architecture with serious knowledge rather than just a avid fan. It's very difficult to split out the 'image' of a tower from it's actual merit, like most things really. If the image becomes so well ingrained in your mind, it's hard to shake. Also, I'm not even sure something like this cane be judged objectively.

Up until I was about 12, I probably still thought the ESB was the tallest building in the world. I'd never been to any large city other than London, and London in 2002, wasn't exactly brimming with towers. It was the only skyscraper I knew, let alone knew well.

I'm sure you desperately wish for people to judge this objectively, I wish that too, and I'd really like to be able to judge them objectively myself, but we as human beings often can't help but bring our emotions into things, and as I said, I'm not sure this kind of thing can even be judged objectively. If it could, every scholar would agree on the best buildings, which I'm sure they don't.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:44 PM   #709
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That is true. Can't disagree.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:58 PM   #710
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Hey guys, instead of copying each other whole posts, please use the ^ sign if the post to respond to is right above you, or the @username sign when not. Thanks.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 07:05 PM   #711
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Ok.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 07:28 PM   #712
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@Pansori
I actually think the Empire State Building, which is pure art deco (including the spire), is architecturally finer than the Petronas Towers, which have a post-modern design (and post modernism is an architectural movement I've never had much respect for). Up close they're both charismatic, but the way the ESB looms so powerfully over the streets of Manhattan is especially dramatic.

Of course a building's progress through this World Cup contest depends upon which contenders it comes up against, and when. I look at the ESB's path to the semis, and I'm not at all surprised that it got there. It faced HHHR Tower, Ocean Heights, City of Capitals, and Guangzhou IFC - all of which are easy and predictable victories for the ESB. Meanwhile the Bank of China and SWFC were somewhat unlucky to be drawn against the Chrysler Building relatively early on.

I'm reasonably impressed by the final four line-up. Too often people on these forums place height and scale over design quality. The fact that the Chrysler Building still performs so well, shows that many forumers still attach importance to architectural beauty (and the Chrysler's spire is magically beautiful, especially at night). For me, beauty (not scale) is the sine qua non for skyscrapers, as for any other architectural form.

I've seen all of the final four in person, and I found all of them impressive. My own top four line-up would probably look a little different, but there's none among the semi-finalists that isn't a worthy contender. I suspect you're irrationally biased towards the only ones that you've seen (eg Petronas, HK towers, etc). I also know you well, and also know you have strong emotional biases of your own.
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Last edited by Langur; July 3rd, 2011 at 08:02 PM.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 08:19 PM   #713
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Some people are voting based on personal experience. I have fond memories of being in the Empire State Building so it holds a special place in my heart. Sure, that has nothing to do with the exterior of the building but it still created something memorable for me that no other building has, thus I vote for it. Most people knowingly or unknowingly hold some sort of bias for whatever reason, it could be a memory or the fact that they've seen some buildings in person and not others, but that's hardly as 'dangerous' as cheating.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 08:33 PM   #714
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Langur you claim to know me rather well yet you assume that I admire Petronas towers. Well, maybe... at night . I sure like them but I have never put them on par with the likes of SWFC or BoC. But yes if we compare ESB or Chrysler to Petronas the latter certainly posses more of an architectural value and sophistication. The fact that something is art deco doesn't make it anyhow more important. And if you look for greatest Art deco I guess NYC is not the first place to look at anyway and certainly not its skyscrapers. Just like you won't look for the finest Gothic or Renaissance there. NYC is about modernism and that's where we should look for the greatest stuff.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 08:39 PM   #715
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I just want to ask, how can anybody say ESB's spire, is there just for height. It was built in the 1930's not 1998.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 08:47 PM   #716
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To overtake Chrysler?
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 08:50 PM   #717
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Never been to NYC I take it. Chrysler added a spire to beat 40 Wall Street. ESB is taller than Chrysler without the spire.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 09:02 PM   #718
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@Pansori
I think New York is by far the greatest city on earth for art deco. Its collection is better than the next several cities combined. However I don't put art deco on some kind of pedestal. It's one style among many. I also think the Chrysler Building is very much a match for the Bank of China and the SWFC, so I wasn't susprised that it beat them. Chrysler's spire has a gossamer delicacy and beauty. At night it really is magical...
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Last edited by Langur; July 4th, 2011 at 01:41 AM.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 09:08 PM   #719
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well technically ESB doesn't even have a spire ;P
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 09:12 PM   #720
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No technically it does. It's the grey part of the tower.
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