Contrasts between Houston and Dallas (apples to oranges)

[Trae]

Yeah, you're just being extra specific. And not all of the areas you listed have high rise living (hardly any actually)For example, Las Colinas has suburban style apartments, not high rise living like Uptown (and I'd throw in Victory Park with Uptown, even though it is disconnected).

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by Trae

Yeah, you're just being extra specific. And not all of the areas you listed have high rise living (hardly any actually)For example, Las Colinas has suburban style apartments, not high rise living like Uptown (and I'd throw in Victory Park with Uptown, even though it is disconnected).

Victory Park wishes it was part of Uptown. It is too far west from it, actually, as it is just outside of prime. Harwood is better situated.
I consider anything four stories and up to be highrise. Here is a picture in Wikipedia of the high rise living in Las Colinas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lascolinas1vc1.jpg
In any case, Las Colinas is well suited for supporting high rise residential.

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by LSyd

Dallas-Fort Worth - more midwestern big business; the "Chicago of Texas"
Houston - business centered but with gulf coast/southern charm
San Antonio - more Latin-American feeling than the other cities with big historic feel (the Alamo is downtown)
Austin - hipster and educated elite trendiness

-

I noticed an oddity about Dallas - Fort Worth. In the Dallas area, the prime real estate for office space is located in the micro business district of Preston Center. This is an upscale little business district the one where President Bush decided to locate his office after retiring from public office. While there is also upscale shopping located in Preston Center, the prime real estate for retail space is actually located in the Highland Park Shopping Village which is located a few miles south on Preston Rd.
I assume the prime real estate for retail in Houston is the Galleria. Where would the prime real estate for office space be located?
In other words, downtown Dallas looks a lot more suburban in characteristics than it did when it was once the unquestionable center for prime office and retail space. It has had a shrinking supply of office and retail space for what is going on about twenty-five years as old, abandoned, empty office towers and department stores have been converted over into high rise residences and hotels. While there has been some office space built in downtown Dallas, it tends to take on the characteristics of the types of low rise buildings recently built out in the suburbs.
So, does the Dallas - Fort Worth area even have any true downtowns? I think the area has six business districts along with four of what I like to call commercial shopping districts (as the retail in these areas dominates the office space, they are much more significant than just typical office parks):

Six Business Districts:
Downtown Dallas
Stemmons Corridor
Las Colinas
Downtown Fort Worth
Telecom Corridor
Uptown

Four Commercial Shopping Districts:
Park Central
Northpark / Eastpark (Shops at Park Lane)
Galleria / Addison
Stonebriar

Of course, there are other smaller urban clusters in Dallas - Fort Worth that don't fit the classification of a business district or of a commercial shopping district.

[diablo234]

Originally Posted by Mister Nifty

Could you please list them? Here is a string of TODs along Central Expressway:

Here are two examples that I am aware of in the Austin area.

Midtown Commons at Crestview Station

Saltillo Lofts

There are also plans for a new TOD development in Leander.

http://www.leandertransitvillage.com/

[Texan#1]

Originally Posted by Trae

Yeah, you're just being extra specific. And not all of the areas you listed have high rise living (hardly any actually)For example, Las Colinas has suburban style apartments, not high rise living like Uptown (and I'd throw in Victory Park with Uptown, even though it is disconnected).

Las Colinas has the Grand Treviso and some other building where the Hibachi restaurant is that is maybe 8 stories. Everything else is mid-rise.

http://www.grandtreviso.com/

[JJG]

Originally Posted by LSyd

that's right.

Dallas - businessmen thinking they're also cowboys
Fort Worth - businessmen who used to be cowboys/still are cowboys for a hobby



-

Well actually, I meant that Fort Worth isn't really seen as a business type of city. Small business people will tell you otherwise, and it is true in a few cases, but all my life, I've NEVER seen or heard anyone refer to Fort Worth as "big business" or any kind of business. Just look at our skyline.....



For a city that size, it just doesn't fit, ya know?

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by JJG

Well actually, I meant that Fort Worth isn't really seen as a business type of city. Small business people will tell you otherwise, and it is true in a few cases, but all my life, I've NEVER seen or heard anyone refer to Fort Worth as "big business" or any kind of business. Just look at our skyline.....



For a city that size, it just doesn't fit, ya know?

I think Fort Worth might have been hurt perception wise by that tornado hitting it. Still, the city is big time in the business of defense and aerospace. It is also the headquarters for one of the largest gas fields in North America. North tarrant county is amongst the hottest real estate in the nation while it has been the fastest growing part of the Dallas - Fort Worth area.
Personally, I think the people in Fort Worth are smarter than the people who live in either Austin or San Antonio. As much as people in Fort Worth claim to hate the city of Dallas, that more cosmopolitan city to the east still has the best shopping in the south. So, that is far less driving for them to do while they get to live in a pretty city located just next to the hill country.

[ardamir]

Originally Posted by Mister Nifty

I think Fort Worth might have been hurt perception wise by that tornado hitting it. Still, the city is big time in the business of defense and aerospace. It is also the headquarters for one of the largest gas fields in North America. North tarrant county is amongst the hottest real estate in the nation while it has been the fastest growing part of the Dallas - Fort Worth area.
Personally, I think the people in Fort Worth are smarter than the people who live in either Austin or San Antonio. As much as people in Fort Worth claim to hate the city of Dallas, that more cosmopolitan city to the east still has the best shopping in the south. So, that is far less driving for them to do while they get to live in a pretty city located just next to the hill country.

This opinion is based on what exactly?

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by Texan#1

Las Colinas has the Grand Treviso and some other building where the Hibachi restaurant is that is maybe 8 stories. Everything else is mid-rise.

http://www.grandtreviso.com/

Yes. Though some of the areas I mentioned only have a few high rises, they have the capacity to support such future development. That was the point I was trying to make when determining what is the prime real estate in the city of Dallas. For office and retail space, it is Preston Center and Highland Park Shopping Village respectively. The further one gets from these two primary centers, the more the real estate falls off in value. While the office space located around Northpark is a step down from Preston Center, retail space in Preston Center is a step down from retail space located in Highland Park Shopping Village.
Surely, as the height of structures in Dallas Fort Worth are hindered by the close proximity of the major airports (DFW, Love Field, and Addison), at the same time Highland Park Shopping Village, Preston Center, and Lemmon Avenue all benefit because of it.
Strangely, the general area these three make up should be thought of as the actual primary economic center of the DFW area.
The immediate areas surrounding Preston Center, Highland Park Shopping Village, and Lemmon Avenue, with these being Uptown and its urban clusters, downtown and its urban clusters, Northpark, the Galleria, Addison, Las Colinas, the area between the stations of Mockingbird and Lover's Lane, and, finally, the Stemmon's Corridor all have the capacity to support high rise residential living.
The same is true of downtown Fort Worth of course.
An interesting area to watch in the future will be the Telecom Corridor in Richardson. As a result of the recent earthquakes and Tsunami hitting Japan, figure a lot of high tech companies located there will be interested in building backup facilities in a more geologically stable part of the world. In my opinion, the Telecom Corridor in Richardson best fits that criteria.

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by ardamir

This opinion is based on what exactly?

Because they have less distance to drive to shop in Dallas. Love it or hate it, the city of Dallas is fast becoming the primary shopping destination of the south.

[JJG]

Originally Posted by Mister Nifty

I think Fort Worth might have been hurt perception wise by that tornado hitting it. Still, the city is big time in the business of defense and aerospace. It is also the headquarters for one of the largest gas fields in North America. North tarrant county is amongst the hottest real estate in the nation while it has been the fastest growing part of the Dallas - Fort Worth area.
Personally, I think the people in Fort Worth are smarter than the people who live in either Austin or San Antonio. As much as people in Fort Worth claim to hate the city of Dallas, that more cosmopolitan city to the east still has the best shopping in the south. So, that is far less driving for them to do while they get to live in a pretty city located just next to the hill country.

Oh, I never said there WASN'T big business in this city. I said it's just not the perception, at least not from the outsiders I've talked to. The tornado had nothing to do with it. The city is just too conservative on some things... mainly big projects.

And mostly, Fort Worthians don't actually hate Dallas. Some do, but not all. The majority feeling of this is just as I feel.... we have a 'love/hate' relationship with Dallas.

I equate it to a divorced couple who still have feelings for each other.

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by JJG

Oh, I never said there WASN'T big business in this city. I said it's just not the perception, at least not from the outsiders I've talked to. The tornado had nothing to do with it. The city is just too conservative on some things... mainly big projects.

And mostly, Fort Worthians don't actually hate Dallas. Some do, but not all. The majority feeling of this is just as I feel.... we have a 'love/hate' relationship with Dallas.

I equate it to a divorced couple who still have feelings for each other.

You don't think that tornado could have scared some of those Fort Worth billionaires away from doing a project or two downtown?
Anyway, the development in downtown Fort Worth is similar to what has been developed in downtown Dallas. Mostly fifteen to twenty story buildings. Though the skyline improved a little with the building of the Omni Convention Center Hotel, most of what is happening in Fort Worth has been and will continue being in northern Tarant county. Figure as that builds up even more, development will return to downtown.

[diablo234]

Originally Posted by Mister Nifty

You don't think that tornado could have scared some of those Fort Worth billionaires away from doing a project or two downtown?
Anyway, the development in downtown Fort Worth is similar to what has been developed in downtown Dallas. Mostly fifteen to twenty story buildings. Though the skyline improved a little with the building of the Omni Convention Center Hotel, most of what is happening in Fort Worth has been and will continue being in northern Tarant county. Figure as that builds up even more, development will return to downtown.

Why would a tornado scare away businesses and potential developers?

Salt Lake City's along with Atlanta's downtown also got directly hit by a tornado once. However both cities are seeing new development take place there that is revitalizing their downtowns (for example City Creek in Salt Lake City).

[WhoDatSB]

Originally Posted by Mister Nifty

This might sound like a strange question, but have you lived in Houston without a job? Sometimes being gainfully employed helps to make living in a city better. Anyway, I'm not doing a comparison here. Both cities are crap as far as I'm concerned. I just know both areas intimately. In my objective opinion, economically speaking, I think Dallas blows away not just Houston but every city in the south. However, you might be right about your opinions about Houston. I don't know what cosmopolitan means really as I'm not inclined towards sophistication nor artistically endeavored.

No but my work takes me to both cities here n there. I just never care for Dallas. Maybe I'm bias since I HATE the Cowboys and Mavericks LOL

I'm more partial to Houston. Houston is one of the country's better food mecca's. You've got Mexican, tons of Cajun places, great Vietnamese restaurants, awesome seafood, etc

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by WhoDatSB

No but my work takes me to both cities here n there. I just never care for Dallas. Maybe I'm bias since I HATE the Cowboys and Mavericks LOL

I'm more partial to Houston. Houston is one of the country's better food mecca's. You've got Mexican, tons of Cajun places, great Vietnamese restaurants, awesome seafood, etc

Houston does seem to open up new restaurants while Dallas opens up new restaurant chains. That is another difference between Houston and Dallas - Fort Worth. Houston does have a few restaurant rows, but nothing like the phenomenon existgs in North Texas. Not too uncommon, a nice restaurant can sit on the side of the freeway in Houston while just a few blocks over is a slummy part of town. Without zoning, Bohemian has seemed to work well in Houston. The first Ninfas restaurant got its start in a run down part of East Houston attracting hundreds of people to commute to dine there from the wealthier parts of town.
The thing about Dallas is the competition. As Houston takes itself seriously for its Energy business, its Medical Center, and Nasa, Dallas seems to take itself more seriously for its retail which includes wholesale, resale, and the restaurant business. The point being that the fierce competition will tend to result in better costumer service and cleaner restaurants.

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by diablo234

Why would a tornado scare away businesses and potential developers?

Salt Lake City's along with Atlanta's downtown also got directly hit by a tornado once. However both cities are seeing new development take place there that is revitalizing their downtowns (for example City Creek in Salt Lake City).

Yes, but did it shatter all the glass out of the buildings? I can still remember two things about downtown Fort Worth rather vividly. One was the pictures of those skyscrapers with shattered windows. Another was the video depicting that black gentlemen diving into the water gardens desperately trying to save his drowning family members. As an outsider, these are my honest impressions. Isn't the urban center of Las Colinas poised to overtake downtown Fort Worth in scale in the near future?

[simms3]

Um did you miss out on all of the pictures of Downtown Atlanta? The tornado took a lot of the roof of our massive convention center off and took out the windows of *many* major highrises, including the 73 floor Westin Peachtree, which spent many millions of dollars replacing every window last year. It was a "large" EF2, almost EF3, and Fort Worth's was an EF3. Both led to fatalities and millions and millions of dollars of damage.

Anyway, keep on contrasting the two cities, this is interesting.

[ardamir]

Originally Posted by Mister Nifty

Because they have less distance to drive to shop in Dallas. Love it or hate it, the city of Dallas is fast becoming the primary shopping destination of the south.

You do realize the Tangier and Prime Outlets near San Marcos have more visitors than anything in DFW or Houston right?

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by ardamir

You do realize the Tangier and Prime Outlets near San Marcos have more visitors than anything in DFW or Houston right?

That seems like a perfect location for that kind of retail not just for now but in the future as it is located in an area with only a single freeway connecting it between San Antonio and Austin at a major college town and in a tourist part of Texas.
Still, just consider how the retail lines up in Dallas - Fort Worth? Start at Highland Park Shopping Village, proceed to Preston Center, stop off at Northpark and the Shops at Park Lane a few miles to the east, proceed back to Preston and then north again to the Galleria, then further north from there to The Shops at Briar Creek. And then end further north at Stonebriar Center which already has the largest concentration of retail in the Southwest with lots of vacant property to grow even larger.
This Golden Corridor of upscale shopping along and in close proximity to Preston Road doesn't even include such retail outlets as the Shops at Mockingbird Station, West Village, Watters Creek, and many more shopping malls spread out around the Metroplex.
One would think the city of Arlington could attract the type of retail that exists in San Marcos as it is situated between the major cities of Dallas and Fort Worth. However, there are other freeways linking the two like I-20 to the south, and 183 to the north, along with the criscrossing 121 and 114 to a lessor extent. And, as it has been a painful lesson to learn, while Arlington is a major tourist destination with Six Flags being based there, sporting venues in the Dallas - Fort Worth area do not attract development around them.
In contrasting tourist attractions in the Houston area and Dallas - Fort Worth, one would start with the seawall in historic Galveston. The NASA area is another tourist destination of course. The area around Herman Park, the Museum District, and the area further south around the new Reliant stadium and of the old Astrodome though it no longer has Astroworld to complement it. Then one has the arts district in downtown Houston and its stadiums there to complement it.
In Dallas - Fort Worth, the main tourist destination is Arlington, Texas with two six flags theme parks at its base and the two sports stadiums built nearby it. To the east is Grand Prairie with horse racing at Lone Star Park and Traders Village (Houston and San Antonio also have one of these).
Grapevine is becoming another major tourist attraction with Grapevine Mills Mall, the Texas Gaylord hotel and convention resort, and other smaller attractions in the area. And, of course, there are the downtowns of Dallas and Fort Worth with the Fair Park and the Arts District in and around the first, and the Museum District and the Stockyards in and around the second.
Finally, the suburb of Frisco has been the smartest developer of its city. Literally, the Stonebriar shopping area has taken precedence over the longer established Legacy office park located just to the south of it. While the vast retail in the area has become a major attraction in and of itself, the city of Frisco is constantly attempting to highlight it by adding entertainment venues in and around it.

[Mister Nifty]

Originally Posted by simms3

Um did you miss out on all of the pictures of Downtown Atlanta? The tornado took a lot of the roof of our massive convention center off and took out the windows of *many* major highrises, including the 73 floor Westin Peachtree, which spent many millions of dollars replacing every window last year. It was a "large" EF2, almost EF3, and Fort Worth's was an EF3. Both led to fatalities and millions and millions of dollars of damage.

Anyway, keep on contrasting the two cities, this is interesting.

One shouldn't think of the Dallas - Fort Worth area as only two cities, but four. As Fort Worth will have a million people in the not too distant future living there, Dallas itself will have about a million and a half. At the same time, unlike the twin cities of Minneapolis - Saint Paul, the cities of Dallas and Fort - Worth have over a million people living between them while there is over a million people living to the north of the city of Dallas as well. Serving these four cities, two legitimate and two illegitimate, is DFW airport sitting at the heart of the population area. Likewise, Love Field and Addison Airport are located intimately close to downtown Dallas and the city of Addison respectively.
The positive thing about Fort Worth is its potential for small business creation. While downtown Fort Worth appears to be slow growing, the area of northern Fort Worth has been busting at the seams. I think Fort Worth would be smart in continuing this trend as any social policies implemented by the city to improve its downtown area will surely end up hurting growth happening elsewhere.
In contrast to Dallas - Fort Worth, Houston is more of a single polar metropolitan area. In about sixteen square miles making up something of an L shape, Houston has its Texas Medical Center, downtown Houston, and its Uptown areas. These are all transitioned together by the Monstrose area, the wealthy area of River Oaks, two fantastic parks, pretty two-sided thoroughfare-laned boyous, and by the classic neighborhoods of West University, Bellaire and the Heights. Its airports are located further away from its business centers, however.
As I mentioned in a prior post, because of the close proximity of Love Field to Central Dallas, the prime real estate in the Dallas - Fort Worth area is actually in and around the business district of Preston Center, Highland Park Shopping Village, and Lemmon Avenue.
If I had to make an argument as to why the Dallas - Fort Worth area blows away all the other cities in the south, I'd start here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston..._Dallas,_Texas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Park_Village
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...-roll-8839.ece