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Old May 11th, 2011, 11:15 PM   #41
fragel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Thanks
I didn't take the HSR towards Wuhan because I realised that I only had 3 days in Guangzhou and there was so much to see... I guess I just didn't realise how actually big the city was and how long it takes to see the stuff. So just didn't want to miss out. And, of course, I didn't want to overspend too much.
I can understand that, it isn't that important compared to seeing the city anyway. Guangzhou is surely bigger than Shenzhen and I personally found it more attractive than Shenzhen as well.
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Old May 11th, 2011, 11:31 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Many Westerners living in China are simply unaware of the bad things happening around them because of many factors :
1. criminals don't like to target non-Chinese foreigners because it causes a big stir with the embassy and the police are forced to take action afterwards; it's easy to target Hong Kongers as it will not cause the same level of government attention
2. Hong Kongers regularly visit the delta and hence are more likely to be exposed to crime
3. bad news at a local level are not high on the agenda among the international press and CCTV's English service

The events we hear on the news are indeed very real but often fall on deaf ears in the mainland. These include poisonous food laced with industrial chemicals, kidnappings for organs, pickpocket syndicates operating on buses and passengers don't help out when crime occurs, police incompetence that side with the criminals, etc. Shenzhen is a city of migrants, and people come in and go at ease. This lack of history and continuity also fuels crime, especially around the Chinese New Year when migrants try to hit it bring before they head back to their hometowns. This is not just a Shenzhen thing, but a common occurrence among many large Chinese cities.

While Shenzhen is not a Rio or Bogota, it is not exactly a safe place like Hong Kong or Tokyo either. I can understand Westerners who don't know the language or have fair access to the media would think it's a lovely garden city that seems much better than how we portray it otherwise. Would they be riding the buses and walking to their local wet market to truly experience local life? My answer to these perceptions is to learn the local language and try to reach out to multiple media sources for a more informed decision. Unfortunately, HK television is scrambled in the delta when sensitive topics appear.
I kinda agree to most of what you said, but "kidnappings for organs"? dude, I know there were cooked up internet rumors, but do you really believe this is true and as rampant as pickpocketing?

Shenzhen is far from perfect, just look at the urban villages where the migrant workers stay. In terms of crimes and safety, you just set the bar too high by using Hong Kong as benchmark.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 04:54 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Many Westerners living in China are simply unaware of the bad things happening around them because of many factors :
1. criminals don't like to target non-Chinese foreigners because it causes a big stir with the embassy and the police are forced to take action afterwards; it's easy to target Hong Kongers as it will not cause the same level of government attention
2. Hong Kongers regularly visit the delta and hence are more likely to be exposed to crime
3. bad news at a local level are not high on the agenda among the international press and CCTV's English service

The events we hear on the news are indeed very real but often fall on deaf ears in the mainland. These include poisonous food laced with industrial chemicals, kidnappings for organs, pickpocket syndicates operating on buses and passengers don't help out when crime occurs, police incompetence that side with the criminals, etc. Shenzhen is a city of migrants, and people come in and go at ease. This lack of history and continuity also fuels crime, especially around the Chinese New Year when migrants try to hit it bring before they head back to their hometowns. This is not just a Shenzhen thing, but a common occurrence among many large Chinese cities.

While Shenzhen is not a Rio or Bogota, it is not exactly a safe place like Hong Kong or Tokyo either. I can understand Westerners who don't know the language or have fair access to the media would think it's a lovely garden city that seems much better than how we portray it otherwise. Would they be riding the buses and walking to their local wet market to truly experience local life? My answer to these perceptions is to learn the local language and try to reach out to multiple media sources for a more informed decision. Unfortunately, HK television is scrambled in the delta when sensitive topics appear.
There are true things in what you've written. But I'll give you my opinion as a foreigner living in Shenzhen for 10-11 years and who also have lived in Hong Kong in 2000 and 2004.

First of all, yes Hong Kong and Tokyo are of course extremely more safe than Shenzhen. As I always say, a hot naked lady could walk home at 3:00 AM in any place of Hong Kong without any trouble

Then, I speak chinese, I ride buses often, I shop my vegetables and fruits in the very local market in my nearby "xiaoqu", I ride my bike pretty much everywhere in Shenzhen, I know Shenzhen very well, most of its sub-quarters, its main quarters etc. I know Shenzhen a lot more than 99% of Hong Kongese. I do long bike rides by day and by night too.

Then, yes foreigners are less a target in Shenzhen than other chinese or Hong Kongese.

But:

- I have always believed that Hong Kong was self feeding this fear about Shenzhen. It's in the interest of Hong Kong people and Hong Kong government that Shenzhen does not become too attractive. If it was considered extremely safe then Hong Kong would easily lose one part of its population in favor of Shenzhen. Living cost in Shenzhen (even if exchange rate between HKD and RMB has changed a lot) still remains lot lower than Hong kong especially for apartment rents (3 to 5x ratio).

- If some Hong Kongese are getting into troubles it's also due to the fact that some of them end up in not the best quarter for "entertainment". I live not far from HuangGang and FuTian border and I can tell you that a great deal of Hong Kongers head straight to XiaSha, ShangSha, ShuiWei for entertainment. Mainlanders know that they have money and they're easy to target. And some also don't really want their family or wife to know that they got robbed in Shenzhen as they were not supposed to be there in the first place

- Listening to some Hong Kongese friends, colleagues, and foreign friends living in Hong Kong, there are always horrible stories about Shenzhen, but really most of them are just rumors that I believe are fake, you don't find these stories in South China Morning Post and they rarely have any proof, it's just word to mouth stories.

- Of course you can read horrible stories about things happening in China in some serious media but of course it's statically more likely to occur in a 1.35 billions inhabitant country than on a 6 millions territory such as Hong Kong. I remind you that last year there was this guys in MongKok that was throwing bottles of acid on crowded streets during couple of weeks.

- I would say that the biggest threat in Shenzhen is to have your bag, your purse or your mobile phone stolen if you're not careful. But that's a common things in most of major cities world wide. That's how we can easily spot Hong Kongers in Shenzhen, they are the ones with bag back carried on the front

Anyways, I love Hong Kong and I love Shenzhen. I especially love the fact that the 2 cities share a common border and yet they are so different. I love things in Hong Kong that you can't find in Shenzhen, and I love things in Shenzhen that are missing in Hong Kong.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 05:04 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Very true about the trees and greenery. Trees can create a fantastic atmosphere if planted properly and taken care of. Shenzhen did a fantastic job here.
i find hangzhou is very greean, nanjing is not bad too.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 05:45 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post
I kinda agree to most of what you said, but "kidnappings for organs"? dude, I know there were cooked up internet rumors, but do you really believe this is true and as rampant as pickpocketing?

Shenzhen is far from perfect, just look at the urban villages where the migrant workers stay. In terms of crimes and safety, you just set the bar too high by using Hong Kong as benchmark.
These made it to the news as returning Hong Kongers seeking medical help was picked up by the media. It was apparently notorious in the toilets at the Lowu border crossing. Given all the weird economic crimes arising in recent years as people grew more capitalist and greedy, I'm not longer surprised.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YannSZ View Post
But:

- I have always believed that Hong Kong was self feeding this fear about Shenzhen. It's in the interest of Hong Kong people and Hong Kong government that Shenzhen does not become too attractive. If it was considered extremely safe then Hong Kong would easily lose one part of its population in favor of Shenzhen. Living cost in Shenzhen (even if exchange rate between HKD and RMB has changed a lot) still remains lot lower than Hong kong especially for apartment rents (3 to 5x ratio).

- If some Hong Kongese are getting into troubles it's also due to the fact that some of them end up in not the best quarter for "entertainment". I live not far from HuangGang and FuTian border and I can tell you that a great deal of Hong Kongers head straight to XiaSha, ShangSha, ShuiWei for entertainment. Mainlanders know that they have money and they're easy to target. And some also don't really want their family or wife to know that they got robbed in Shenzhen as they were not supposed to be there in the first place

- Listening to some Hong Kongese friends, colleagues, and foreign friends living in Hong Kong, there are always horrible stories about Shenzhen, but really most of them are just rumors that I believe are fake, you don't find these stories in South China Morning Post and they rarely have any proof, it's just word to mouth stories.

- Of course you can read horrible stories about things happening in China in some serious media but of course it's statically more likely to occur in a 1.35 billions inhabitant country than on a 6 millions territory such as Hong Kong. I remind you that last year there was this guys in MongKok that was throwing bottles of acid on crowded streets during couple of weeks.

- I would say that the biggest threat in Shenzhen is to have your bag, your purse or your mobile phone stolen if you're not careful. But that's a common things in most of major cities world wide. That's how we can easily spot Hong Kongers in Shenzhen, they are the ones with bag back carried on the front

Anyways, I love Hong Kong and I love Shenzhen. I especially love the fact that the 2 cities share a common border and yet they are so different. I love things in Hong Kong that you can't find in Shenzhen, and I love things in Shenzhen that are missing in Hong Kong.
I do agree Hong Kongers are a careful bunch and we tend to react very strongly against negative news, and it's not just Shenzhen, but any general bad news in particular (like the recent nuclear crisis in Japan). However, I have not doubted the authenticity of what has been reported by the media here especially when doctors and victims are interviewed. Besides, Hong Kongers are valid wealthy targets and it's not surprising the criminals go after them. SCMP is a Western and expat-focussed newspaper, and I have my doubts whether they'll send investigative reporters into China or cover such crimes which don't usually impact the expat. There are many other venerable Chinese-language newspaper publications that in general cover Hong Kong news far more comprehensively. In fact, even Chinese media is starting to pick up on some of these stories to warn the general population. We regularly see Chinese media clips on local TV here of pickpocket syndicates on crowded buses, factories mixing food with industrial chemicals, and the like. Don't think the SCMP or the BBC would be keen on picking these up unless it becomes a huge nationwide scare. Many of these events are localized, but seem to be repeating itself across many locations though. Lately, even bean sprouts have been found to be tainted.

I also don't think these are isolated incidents either. The melamine scare was nationwide, for example, and these types of things have become more frequent and widespread - statistically relevant. The fact that economic crimes are becoming more prevalent points to a shift in social values, something that even the heads in Beijing have spoke of lately as well - the need for more moral education. That clip made it to mainland and HK TV, but it was nowhere to be seen on CNN/BBC.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 12:20 PM   #46
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Just stating some interesting stories:

In the christmas holiday I was crossing the boarder from hong kong Lok Ma Chau to shenzhen huanggang port. It was a holiday and there were tons of people.

When waiting for the immigration in the Hong Kong side, MOST people (not everyone because there is always some stupid idiots) were waiting in the line patiently and there are SPACE between people.

In the shenzhen side people were just pushing and cutting in lines, everything became chaotic and actually NO ONE cares about it at all. And people are basically touching each other. EWWW

That reminded me the much more horrible experience in the Shanghai Expo, when people roar at you if you don't let them to push in the line. They push you away with their sticky hands trying move in front of you, and the people at the back stick their XXXX to you.

However, although I haven't stayed in Shenzhen for a long time, shanghai gives me a better impression than shenzhen.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 12:45 PM   #47
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I have read many horrific stories on how rude and bad mannered people in Mainland China cities were. I was expecting the worst but I was actually surprised by how polite and considerate the people were. Of course not like in Singapore or Bangkok but the situation seems not really THAT bad even compared to Hong Kong or Macau. Of course there is still a difference but if I was a Hong konger perhaps I wouldn't jump too high about that. I'm seeing this from a perspective of a foreign tourist of course. I have not seen any queue jumping or any other particularly rude behavior. The only thing which is quite weird to me is that people are spitting everywhere... but I guess this is not really something to be particularly worried about.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 07:05 PM   #48
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Shenzhen in general is far more spacious and green than HK. That's quite a good aspect of urban planning that has been well-captured by the photos here. However, there are certain pockets where it gets quite rough, such as Dongmen, and the area around Lowu.

Shanghai Expo was a whole different story. I wonder if the main tourist attractions throughout China are also like that during a golden week rush.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #49
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Pansori nice picture and commentary.

Please do go on if u have more xD
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Old May 13th, 2011, 02:15 AM   #50
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yeah,look at my signature
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Old May 13th, 2011, 03:30 AM   #51
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Time to carry on

92.


93.


94.


95. Shennan East Road


96. Shun Hing Square. There is an observation deck on the upper floors at the height of 298m which we are going to visit later


97.


98.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 03:36 AM   #52
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99. Heping Road towards Shenzhen Railway Station


100.


101.


102. Does anyone still remember VW Santana? In was discontinued in Europe in 1985 and continued as VW Passat until 1988... but that was not the end of Santana contrary to what Europeans might have thought. It is in production in China to this day and is most commonly used as a taxi or police car. Of course it has undergone some cosmetic facelifts but the body remains pretty much similar to the original 1981 model. It is going to be discontinued in 2012 though. The legend will finally die.



103. Train passing above the street on the elevated tracks from Shenzhen Station
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Old May 13th, 2011, 05:03 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mylifesucks View Post
Just stating some interesting stories:

In the christmas holiday I was crossing the boarder from hong kong Lok Ma Chau to shenzhen huanggang port. It was a holiday and there were tons of people.

When waiting for the immigration in the Hong Kong side, MOST people (not everyone because there is always some stupid idiots) were waiting in the line patiently and there are SPACE between people.

In the shenzhen side people were just pushing and cutting in lines, everything became chaotic and actually NO ONE cares about it at all. And people are basically touching each other. EWWW

That reminded me the much more horrible experience in the Shanghai Expo, when people roar at you if you don't let them to push in the line. They push you away with their sticky hands trying move in front of you, and the people at the back stick their XXXX to you.

However, although I haven't stayed in Shenzhen for a long time, shanghai gives me a better impression than shenzhen.
You're right. Chinese people are not the most disciplined in terms of queuing ! But it's improving. And improvement is always good ! Before when people were cutting lines nobody cared, now people starts raising their voices which is good.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 05:06 AM   #54
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104.


105.


106.


107.


108.


109. Buick. I don't know why but Buick is quite a pupular car in China... can anyone explain that? I mean let's be honest, American cars are considered crap in Europe and most other places and for most part very much rightly so because American car production cannot compete with German or Japanese cars for efficiency, power, emissions, comfort, build quality, reliability and pretty much everything else.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 05:59 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post

109. Buick. I don't know why but Buick is quite a pupular car in China... can anyone explain that? I mean let's be honest, American cars are considered crap in Europe and most other places and for most part very much rightly so because American car production cannot compete with German or Japanese cars for efficiency, power, emissions, comfort, build quality, reliability and pretty much everything else.
Buick is the major brand Shanghai GM produces. It is the third best seller in China (after VW and Hyundai). Japanese brand cars made in China are shit.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 02:35 PM   #56
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One of my pet hates about new urban developments in China is building entrances designed exclusively for people in chauffeur driven cars and pavements used so indiscriminately as car parks.

Thanks for all the high quality pictures though Pansori I'm amazed just like the others at just how many you took in such a short space of time!
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Old May 13th, 2011, 03:08 PM   #57
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The red taxi in the background is a BYD e6
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Old May 13th, 2011, 11:19 PM   #58
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This toer loos very interesting!
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Old May 14th, 2011, 12:28 AM   #59
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@NCT
I think urban planning is certainly NOT something to complain about in SZ... it's one of the best planned and I would say humane cities when it comes to pedestrian friendliness and environment. As about those entrances... isn't it the same in many places in most cities (especially hotels)? I have never paid attention to this in Shenzhen or Guangzhou though, as it never caused me any problems.. it's quite common in Bangkok which is quite messy in the terms of planning. Still not something I would really "hate". What I really hate is lack of space for pedestrians and no open integrated pedestrian areas which is so typical to London where we both live. It was so refreshing to stroll in Shenzhen. All that openness and freedom just made me fall in love with it. Hence I managed to take quite a few pictures in quite a few places over a very short time. Thanks to extreme ease of navigation and walking due to good planning of the entire city.

@greenlay
Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. Very interesting. How common are these cars in Chinese cities? Anyhow, this is just fantastic. Hope this will become a standard at least for taxis.

@dnh310
I'm usually not too fond of modern "authentic" Chinese architecture but Shun Hing Square has some appeal for some reason. Not that I absolutely love it but it's quite nice to look at.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 12:51 AM   #60
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Quote:
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@NCT
I think urban planning is certainly NOT something to complain about in SZ... it's one of the best planned and I would say humane cities when it comes to pedestrian friendliness and environment. As about those entrances... isn't it the same in many places in most cities (especially hotels)? I have never paid attention to this in Shenzhen or Guangzhou though, as it never caused me any problems.. it's quite common in Bangkok which is quite messy in the terms of planning. Still not something I would really "hate". What I really hate is lack of space for pedestrians and no open integrated pedestrian areas which is so typical to London where we both live. It was so refreshing to stroll in Shenzhen. All that openness and freedom just made me fall in love with it. Hence I managed to take quite a few pictures in quite a few places over a very short time. Thanks to extreme ease of navigation and walking due to good planning of the entire city.
In my experience most city-centre offices and hotels in the UK don't have enough space at the entrances for a pick-up drop-off bay, so the main entrance is always one facing a restricted-access road, road with bus lane and/or red route, or a pedestrianised square. If you arrive by car you either expect to be dropped off at some side street or go into the dingy underground car par, so public transport + walking is always the best option, as opposed to when the most glamorous entrance is where pedestrians have to dodge all the chauffeur-driven cars.

I'd say London is more pedestrian friendly. Yes it feels a bit cramped but the pedestrian almost always has priority, can cross the road literally wherever and everything is a 5-pace walk away. You wouldn't have to take a 10-minute detour to cross the road but you would if you took a car into London. It's seems like the other way round in Shenzhen.
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