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Old May 14th, 2011, 01:13 AM   #61
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Quote:
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I'd say London is more pedestrian friendly. Yes it feels a bit cramped but the pedestrian almost always has priority, can cross the road literally wherever and everything is a 5-pace walk away. You wouldn't have to take a 10-minute detour to cross the road but you would if you took a car into London. It's seems like the other way round in Shenzhen.
Sorry but have to disagree here. London is far from being a good example of a pedestrian-friendly city AND perhaps the least car-friendly city I have ever been to... sidewalks are chronically inadequate (too narrow) and people just spill out on the streets which are also too narrow where you have to constantly watch yourself not to obstruct the moving cars... there can be no comparison with Shenzhen here. It's just a zillion times better when it comes to pedestrian environment AND cars.SZ is well ordered with adequate space (lots of it) for both, adequate pedestrian crossings and, not least importantly, great landscaping, greenery and simply places to sit down and relax not to mention litter bins on every corner. London lacks all of that and it's certainly not a great example of a pedestrian friendly city be it a comparison with cities like Shenzhen or other European cities. Want a good European example? Look no further than Munich. In Asia it's Singapore hands down. Shenzhen is a good one as well. I know it may get accused of being too "boring" in a sense of being too much like SimCity (and it is) but that hardly makes it a bad planned city. On the contrary.

And no, it does not have to be either pedestrians or cars. It can be both and there is hardly any correlation at all.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 01:42 AM   #62
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110.
Somewhere near Shenzhen Railway Station. Lots of small shops.


111.


112.


113.
Deng Xiaoping on an LED screen on the station building


114. Luohu crossing to Hong Kong. It's a busy place, it seems. The whole area around the station and the crossing is very spacious and well-planned, as typical in Shenzhen. It's easy to find a space to sit down and just relax. Lots of police presence around too.


115. Station facade


116. View from the station plaza to the North. There is an underground level which has some shops and pedestrian access to other places. Again, an example of great planning


117. Station surroundings


118.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 02:36 AM   #63
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Is this the all pictures you have.. So few.. :P

Thanks for great pictures... share high speed train pictures too
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Old May 14th, 2011, 02:53 AM   #64
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Is this the all pictures you have.. So few.. :P

Thanks for great pictures... share high speed train pictures too
No worries, I have another 180 or so (no joke)
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Old May 14th, 2011, 06:34 AM   #65
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In Asia it's Singapore hands down.
Actually no it's not. Also you haven't travelled to most of Asia so why are you making a statement like "hands down" anyways?

About the pictures, that city looks very nice...I feel like I should have gone to SE China instead of Shanghai in my vacation 2 months ago . It doesn't even look like the same country to me lol.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 12:13 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Sorry but have to disagree here. London is far from being a good example of a pedestrian-friendly city AND perhaps the least car-friendly city I have ever been to... sidewalks are chronically inadequate (too narrow) and people just spill out on the streets which are also too narrow where you have to constantly watch yourself not to obstruct the moving cars... there can be no comparison with Shenzhen here. It's just a zillion times better when it comes to pedestrian environment AND cars.SZ is well ordered with adequate space (lots of it) for both, adequate pedestrian crossings and, not least importantly, great landscaping, greenery and simply places to sit down and relax not to mention litter bins on every corner. London lacks all of that and it's certainly not a great example of a pedestrian friendly city be it a comparison with cities like Shenzhen or other European cities. Want a good European example? Look no further than Munich. In Asia it's Singapore hands down. Shenzhen is a good one as well. I know it may get accused of being too "boring" in a sense of being too much like SimCity (and it is) but that hardly makes it a bad planned city. On the contrary.

And no, it does not have to be either pedestrians or cars. It can be both and there is hardly any correlation at all.
London does space quite differently in that street-side greenery and benches are rare but there is plenty of proper parks of decent sizes, not overly engineered, providing a nice sanctury and place for kids to play. Road-side greenery so common in China looks a little over-engineered and doesn't really do the job of providing peace and quiet or place to play, so in the end it just become a place people walk through or walk past and not even look at.

Perhaps it's because Shenzhen is so different from what we are used to in Western Europe that as tourists we find the contrast quite refreshing, and might I point out that tourist behaviour is quite different to an everyday resident or worker. My experience though is that over time this kind of 'space' just becomes the extra inconvenient 200 metres you have to walk twice every day, and the catalyst for everyone wanting cars.

Provision for cars inevitably enchroaches upon pedestrian convenience, as 4x2 highways reduce crossing density from every 200 metres to sometimes as little as every whopping kilometre, crossing the road requires a flight of steps with no provision for the mobility impaired, and huge widths make it impossible for bus stops to be located close to junctions, and the worst thing is finding your pavement getting colonized by parked cars and drivers honking you for not getting out of your own way. All these disincentives for walking and taking public transport encourage car use. In dense Chinese cities there's just no way of ever satisfying the natural demand for private vehicles and once you open the floodgate it's incredibly hard to contain it again, and you end up in the sorry situation that every widened or new road is jam-packed immediately upon completion. Car friendliness isn't some way you want to go down in the first place.

Alas, enough of my rant, and keep the pictures coming
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Old May 14th, 2011, 02:35 PM   #67
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117. Station surroundings
I like that guy on the right. Super hot.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 05:32 PM   #68
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Actually no it's not. Also you haven't travelled to most of Asia so why are you making a statement like "hands down" anyways?

About the pictures, that city looks very nice...I feel like I should have gone to SE China instead of Shanghai in my vacation 2 months ago . It doesn't even look like the same country to me lol.
Oh man, London interjected again? If one has to make a decontextualized comparison to a European city, just pick Munich or Paris or Barcelona. At least their infrastructure hasn't been subject to several DECADES of privatization and wilful underinvestment.

Back to the point. Pansori has it right. Many people conflate pedestrian friendly with an idealized nostalgia, and lately "pedestrian friendly" has been manipulated to justify otherwise bad urban development. From an academic perspective pedestrian friendliness is one aspect of building typology. The combination of building typology, density, and public transit/auto non-dependency determine an area's urban functionalism/dysfunctionalism.

Singapore gets a lot of flak for its top down style of government. The nanny state's drawbacks are well known, but in Singapore's defense, its powerful planning authorities are very competent and are willing and able to implement the best possible planning. Compare Singaporean suburbia like Tampines or Woodlands to suburbia elsewhere. The high densities and the meticulous planning result in places that allow one to walk to most everyday necessities within one's neighborhood, and efficient transit to connect to other parts of the urban area. Shenzhen functions well for a developing city, but it's still a developing city and obviously its incomplete public transit is a drawback. Give it some time to develop its transit, yet do not dismantle its planning. The issue in most places is the planning authority's lack of power. The power to shape the urban environment nowadays is held by the real estate industry, and their ultimate goal is to generate a profit. Thus you get even more profitable suburbia with car dependent inhabitants and maybe some cheeseball high street that functions as an outdoor mall.

Then you have people bagging on Singapore/any other newly built city for its architecture. From a rational viewpoint, nothing is wrong with prefab concrete. Much of its "difference" is also explained by its very hot and humid climate. It does not make sense to simply emulate the familiar Western European high streets in its climate. It's not more difficult to use the sidewalk alongside well landscaped condos than it is to walk through some bucolic gingerbread area, but people conflate aesthetics with the functional aspect of pedestrian access. Unfortunately it's currently not fashionable, and amongst many prefab concrete is conflated with socialist dehumanization (as opposed to allowing the private real estate industry to leech all your money) and paranoid worries about crime and debauchery in North American and Western European social housing.

Last edited by particlez; May 14th, 2011 at 05:44 PM.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 08:43 PM   #69
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I think you're replying to the wrong person...I didn't mention anything about european cities
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Old May 15th, 2011, 03:02 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
Oh man, London interjected again? If one has to make a decontextualized comparison to a European city, just pick Munich or Paris or Barcelona. At least their infrastructure hasn't been subject to several DECADES of privatization and wilful underinvestment.

Back to the point. Pansori has it right. Many people conflate pedestrian friendly with an idealized nostalgia, and lately "pedestrian friendly" has been manipulated to justify otherwise bad urban development. From an academic perspective pedestrian friendliness is one aspect of building typology. The combination of building typology, density, and public transit/auto non-dependency determine an area's urban functionalism/dysfunctionalism.

Singapore gets a lot of flak for its top down style of government. The nanny state's drawbacks are well known, but in Singapore's defense, its powerful planning authorities are very competent and are willing and able to implement the best possible planning. Compare Singaporean suburbia like Tampines or Woodlands to suburbia elsewhere. The high densities and the meticulous planning result in places that allow one to walk to most everyday necessities within one's neighborhood, and efficient transit to connect to other parts of the urban area. Shenzhen functions well for a developing city, but it's still a developing city and obviously its incomplete public transit is a drawback. Give it some time to develop its transit, yet do not dismantle its planning. The issue in most places is the planning authority's lack of power. The power to shape the urban environment nowadays is held by the real estate industry, and their ultimate goal is to generate a profit. Thus you get even more profitable suburbia with car dependent inhabitants and maybe some cheeseball high street that functions as an outdoor mall.

Then you have people bagging on Singapore/any other newly built city for its architecture. From a rational viewpoint, nothing is wrong with prefab concrete. Much of its "difference" is also explained by its very hot and humid climate. It does not make sense to simply emulate the familiar Western European high streets in its climate. It's not more difficult to use the sidewalk alongside well landscaped condos than it is to walk through some bucolic gingerbread area, but people conflate aesthetics with the functional aspect of pedestrian access. Unfortunately it's currently not fashionable, and amongst many prefab concrete is conflated with socialist dehumanization (as opposed to allowing the private real estate industry to leech all your money) and paranoid worries about crime and debauchery in North American and Western European social housing.
Wow, couldn't say it better. It's good to see some fresh breeze of common sense.

I would guess one of the reasons why people are unable to comprehend the advantages/disadvantages of different fabrics of urban planning is simply because of inability to see outside the box and without prejudice. Hence everything that is their "own" is unconsciously seen as better by default. Also, due to specific likings/dislikings or belonging to a specific group such as Greens or vegetarians who may think that the best way of urban planning is making it into a forest or banning any activity which may kill any living creatures respectively. Why not just see things from a rational and logical point of view? At least this is what I'm trying to do when evaluating things like that i.e. having a completely open mind.

Last edited by Pansori; May 15th, 2011 at 03:11 AM.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 03:35 AM   #71
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Time for a few more photos

119. Views around Luohu


120.


121.


122.


123.


124.
There are some 7-Elevens in Shenzhen. Although not nearly as many as in Bangkok where they are almost literally on every corner.


125.


126. I don't know if there are any car geeks around here but those who are will certainly wonder what car is this. It looks like the legendary Audi 100 with its then breakthrough 1982 year model design. Production of this design ceased in 1991 and it was one of the most successful and best-selling Audi models ever. In China it stayed in production under license from Volkswagen as Hongqi CA7200 between 1995-2006 and there are still quite a few of them on the streets.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 03:40 AM   #72
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127.
Apartments and a street (not motorway) overpass


128.


129.


130.


131. Lots of people making sure the streets are clean and tidy


132.


133.
I loved the attention paid to the details in open public areas...
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Old May 15th, 2011, 06:53 AM   #73
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Just stating some interesting stories:

In the christmas holiday I was crossing the boarder from hong kong Lok Ma Chau to shenzhen huanggang port. It was a holiday and there were tons of people.

When waiting for the immigration in the Hong Kong side, MOST people (not everyone because there is always some stupid idiots) were waiting in the line patiently and there are SPACE between people.

In the shenzhen side people were just pushing and cutting in lines, everything became chaotic and actually NO ONE cares about it at all. And people are basically touching each other. EWWW

That reminded me the much more horrible experience in the Shanghai Expo, when people roar at you if you don't let them to push in the line. They push you away with their sticky hands trying move in front of you, and the people at the back stick their XXXX to you.

However, although I haven't stayed in Shenzhen for a long time, shanghai gives me a better impression than shenzhen.
Agree with you. There is no concept of personal space in Mainland China, nor (in many cases) lining up and waiting your turn. I visited a McDonald's in the Guangzhou HSR station and people were literally queueing up back to back with zero space between people. I was pretty shocked. This doesn't happen in Hong Kong. Also, there are ALWAYS people who cut in line for boarding a train or making an order for food. Some business men with cellphones think they can just hop a line. It's digusting behaviour.

When I enter a Mainland men's washroom, the first thing that men do is not pee, but hack up some phelgm to spit in the urinal.

There needs to be some sort of public effort to provide more ettiquette related training for Chinese citizens. If the parents don't teach these things, their children will never learn.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 04:17 PM   #74
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Sorry to be negative, but I don't see a single attractive building or splendid street in any of these photos. Many of your photos are of trees and cars, which can be found anywhere in the world, but the buildings and streets are just totally unappealing. The very first photo, of your hostel, is about as good as it gets. From then onwards it's all downhill. Even the showpiece Kingkey Tower is lad in cheap and nasty green glass even under bright sunlight! What on earth is appealling about any of this, or this, or this, or this, or this, or this, or this, or this, or this??

Scattered throughout the commentary are your (Pansori's) claims that Shenzhen beats Paris, London, and New York. (Oh really? How??) You claim that it's "romantic", but I'm sure my girlfriend would be disappointed to say the least if I were to treat her to a romantic break in Shenzhen as opposed to, say, Rome. Methinks Shenzhen is a city with no architecture, no culture, no history, and no charm.

I also fail to see how your two-night stay qualifies you, Pansori, to dismiss claims that Shenzhen has a crime problem. Now perhaps Hong Kong tabloids exaggerate, and perhaps HKers are specifically targetted in the sleazy districts, but I doubt its reputation stems from nothing. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

I mean according to your logic, my 10-day stay in Rio, during which I didn't fall victim to, or witness, any crime, means that Rio must be a safe crime-free city, right? I also didn't see any violence during my two months working in Israel. Does that mean the conflict there is a media invention?? Such claims would be ludicrous, of course, but that's essentially what you're saying here...

I appreciate that everyone has different tastes, and evidently you enjoy this place, but I really can't see anything appealing about Shenzhen whatsoever.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 05:19 PM   #75
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Indeed, we seemingly enjoy very different things. I guess it's a bit like food: some enjoy raw fish in sushi while I can't stand it and find it absolutely disgusting. Some men even don't enjoy beer. Now THAT is something I don't understand!
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Old May 15th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #76
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I've worked in Shenzhen. In a few weeks, I'll return for another project and hopefully I'll post some pictures. Before I experienced the place, I had heard and read all the horror stories. I have never witnessed a crime and safe to say, I'm still alive and healthy. I could either be the luckiest person on Earth, or people may have to realize these dystopian descriptions could be just a tad overblown. Many of the people who warned me about Shenzhen were also paranoid of venturing into Hong Kong's public housing projects, or venturing north of Jordan Road, or trusting anyone speaking with ___ accent or having ___ skin tone.

Shenzhen isn't London or Paris or New York, nor should it be. Then again contemporary pre-fab architecture can never have the perfect symmetry and proportions and detailing of the Taj Mahal. It doesn't mean contemporary pre-fab isn't worth the effort and is condemned to be second tier. Shenzhen is being built in the era of industrialized construction and is still a work in progress. Part of Shenzhen's charm stems from its boomtown character. It will change as the city matures, but it's interesting because it's changing so quickly. Contemporary cities with their industrialized aesthetics can have their charm. Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, etc. have a dearth of historicist architecture but still entice the tourist. More importantly, they are functional. I should also add that Shenzhen has a LOT of talent in architecture and urban planning. The built environment in Shenzhen like elsewhere suffers from developer profit-seeking and limited budgets, but its planning is first rate and it does possess its share of architectural gems.

Hong Kong tabloids are awesome. They contain ads for miracle beauty products promising instant and eternal youth, ads for overpriced gold watches that promise panache and social status, and ads from charlatans promising miracle stock and real estate market services. AND they also have an unending stream of lurid stories about the supposed hell across the border in Shenzhen. Stories about hypnotic organ harvesting, or 70 year old transsexual hookers, or human fetus braised in virginal blood.

The stories are almost always anecdotal and have the journalistic integrity of the National Enquirer. Yet their readers suspend their skepticism. These stories work because many people are unthinking, resentful and mean. Denigrating a supposedly lower status out-group makes insecure people feel better about themselves. Mind you, this is hardly limited to Hong Kong. It happens inside Mainland China itself against the migrant population. In my present locale, the real estate industry has fed upon phobias of various unwanted ethnic groups *invading* previously bucolic neighborhoods and setting up little ghettoes of debauchery. Sprawl wouldn't be so effective if it weren't for the legions of gullible people buying the veiled racist and classist memes.

The ironic thing is, the architecture trolls of the early 20th. century made similarly dismissive remarks about New York being trashy and devoid of culture. Architectural and social trolls in the very recent past made similarly dismissive comments about Hong Kong. The bad attitudes never seem to change, they'll just critique different upstarts.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 08:43 PM   #77
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My applauds to you, sir
Nothing more needs to be said.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 04:55 AM   #78
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134.


135. A train passing


136. Such views are not very common in Shenzhen but I did see a few. I was always wondering how on earth do they manage to load all this stuff and make sure it's stable and holding?


137.


138. In the middle of a street. I decided to cross the street on red and it wasn't a good idea. I was stuck in the middle watching out for cars


139. CRH1 train. A few years back they were introduced to serve Shenzhen-Guangzhou route.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 04:58 AM   #79
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140.


141.


142.


143.


144.


145.


146.


147.


148.


149.


150.


151.


152.


Next: views from Shun Hing Square observation deck which is at the height of 298 meters.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 09:44 AM   #80
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I used to live in Shenzhen back in 2008/2009, got used to it although it is not my cup of tea. Now I am back in Shenzhen every time I am in Guangzhou, last time just about 3 weeks ago, I still feel some interest in this place, always try to check some new areas, this time I went to Longgang district, I took the new metro line 3 which was partly open in Longgang district. The Shenzhen there is quite different from what we can see here

The city used to impress me back than, now it pales compare to Guangzhou. Shenzhen is probably the most polarized city in China, it really has 2 faces, the one we see here and the other being urban villages and industrial areas where the problems tend to concentrate. I guess even if someone lives there it is possible to avoid the problematic areas for years thus so different opinions about Shenzhen. But trying not to see Shenzhen's problematic areas doesn't mean they do not exist and there are no social problems on large scale. Large part of population in Shenzhen is floating population, migrant workers from other provinces who come and go; they are not easy to control especially in informal areas of urban villages where the problems concentrate.
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