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Old March 29th, 2017, 01:47 PM   #281
kimahrikku1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Also from the article:

1. GTX A (Dongtan-Ilsan) is expected to be finished in 2023, GTX B (from Songdo in Incheon to Namyangju, assuming the full eastward extension) in 2024, and GTX C (Geumjeong to Uijeongbu) in 2025.
2. The trains are designed for a max of 198km/h, making them almost high-speed, and will have 8 cars per trainset
3. The time from the Suseo HSR station to Seoul Station will be about 8 minutes on GTX A. That seems amazingly quick, considering it currently takes about an hour on current subway lines. Work on the section of the project between Suseo Station and Samseong station began this month.

This project is really going to be transformative for the city.
I think that the GTX will be a true revolution for transportation in Seoul. I'm afraid we'll get bait & switched a bit (project cost overruns, longer transit times than expected, higher fares, construction delays), but as the project stands right now, it does seem huge.

I think all the other mediums of transportation have hit their limits. Personal cars are still popular in Korea, but the amount of infrastructure left to build is decreasing quickly. As for Seoul itself, the traffic is fairly bad and the general direction is to get away from private car usage.

Bus have long been successful in Korea, and that's still the case, with lanes dedicated to bus traffic, transfer centers,... but then again, it's tough to improve the system further.

As for subway, there is still much room for new lines, and many are in current stages of planning. But that won't alleviate all the problems either. Already, the subway network is quite dense within Seoul and all the big Gyeonggi-do cities have subway already. There are 3 main exceptions (Gimpo, Hanam, Siheung), but they'll get it in 2018. But the subway has 2 structural problems. First, subway lines only go one way or the other. That's dumb to say, but even if you live near a subway station in say, Anyang, you can only go in some directions, so the subway only serve as a way to connect Seoul with the satellite cities and not the satellite cities within themselves. Secondly, if you're far away from Seoul, going from your home to Seoul is a pain in the ass because the subway stops every 2km on average. I was in Yongin the other day and it takes like over an hour to go to Gangnam, while it wouldn't take more than 30 minutes by car. It looks great on the map to see that subway Line 1 goes all the way to Cheonan, but realistically, nobody commutes all the way from Seoul to Cheonan, it's just use by Cheonan people to go to Pyeongtaek/Osan/Suwon.

When you have a metropolis that is by some measures the 2nd largest in the world, you can't have a "one rail fits all" approach. London has Crossrail, Tokyo has commuter rail, Paris has RER and New York express services on many of its lines. It's time for Seoul to jump on the wagon (see what I did here) and offer a new type of rail service : GTX.

Also, the design of the line is in perfect balance, with the three lines spreading over the metropolis and forming a transfer triangle at 3 very important stations, that are economic centers of the city (okay, not so much for Cheongnyangni yet), and with KTX service (which will be the case for Cheongnyangni this winter and for Samseong when GTA Line A opens).

And the stations in the rest of the metropolis also make a lot of sense. Incheon is huge and Songdo is a city with a bright future. Linking Kintex is also important, as well as the Bundang-Seongnam-Pangyo-Gwanggyo-Yongin-Dongtan valley, which is now the heart of the Gyeonggi Province.

I'd like to see GTX Line C extended to Suwon station, and you could probably make a case for a 4th line (Maybe linking Cheongna and Gimpo Airport to Gangnam or Yangjae station, through Yeouido, then off to Suseo and Hanam maybe)? Although you could argue Subway Line 9 kind of does that already with its express service.

I don't believe the construction can be done in 5 years, and I don't expect line A to open before 2025, but nonetheless, this is I think a vital project for Seoul and for its integration with the Gyeonggi province

Last edited by kimahrikku1; March 29th, 2017 at 07:52 PM.
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Old March 29th, 2017, 05:25 PM   #282
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I was going to say about Line 9's express service, do you have any idea if all the stations the express service bypasses are quadruple-tracked? It would seem like doing that would be an "easier" way to provide faster service--although probably only easier than building an additional line along the same general path. I also remember that they've been using shorter trainsets along the line, and that this has been due to higher-than-anticipated ridership, but has now led to overcrowding.

I guess what I'm wondering is, could they use the new GTX trains on Line 9 to achieve near-GTX service levels?

P.S. I'm just honestly surprised it's taken the city and national governments so long to realize that in a country with urban settlement patterns as dense as Korea's, rail-centric transit planning is the only way to go. There are more than purely-historically-accidental reasons that Japan is set up that way.
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Old March 29th, 2017, 08:32 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I was going to say about Line 9's express service, do you have any idea if all the stations the express service bypasses are quadruple-tracked? It would seem like doing that would be an "easier" way to provide faster service--although probably only easier than building an additional line along the same general path. I also remember that they've been using shorter trainsets along the line, and that this has been due to higher-than-anticipated ridership, but has now led to overcrowding.

I guess what I'm wondering is, could they use the new GTX trains on Line 9 to achieve near-GTX service levels?

P.S. I'm just honestly surprised it's taken the city and national governments so long to realize that in a country with urban settlement patterns as dense as Korea's, rail-centric transit planning is the only way to go. There are more than purely-historically-accidental reasons that Japan is set up that way.
Gosh... I night be wrong on the Line 9 thing, but from my experience, I believe only a certain number of stations have 4 sets of tracks. In some stations, there is a separate platform for local and express service, and on some it's just at the same place. And I think that when you look at the train schedule, the express and local trains always follow each other at the same frequency (for exemple, all the eastbound express trains from Shinnonhyeon depart 2 minutes after the eastbound local trains). I think that since there is only a limited set of stations where the express train can overpass the all-stop ones, they have to have it all planned out because they can't just pass at any given station. That's what I'm enclined to say based on my riding experience, reading of the timetables and observations.

But even if all the stations were quadruple-tracked (and even the entire lines for that matter), I don't think it would be easy to fit GTX lines. GTX Line A and Shinbundang Line will actually use the same tracks for the central part of the city, when Shinbundang is extended from Noksapyeong to Samsong (in Goyang, not to me confused with Samseong in Gangnam). But the Shinbundang line has wider tunnels, and its tracks have higher curve radius. If you look at a detailed map, you'll see that Line 9 zigs and zags quite a bit. I don't think you could have trains running at 200 kph (or even 150) there. And then there's the whole problem of retroffiting a line for new trains, with new signaling and additional stations. The GTX A / Shinbundang section is being planned with both services in mind. Line 9 already opened almost 10 years ago, and I don't really think they could adapt it for GTX traffic (especially without interrupting traffic on the already taxed line 9).

Also, as to offering service similar to GTX on Line 9 (with subway trains), I think that would mean creating a third tier of service. With the current plans, GTX Lines would be about 45km long and have around 8 stations each (so that's only a station every 6 or 7 km). On the other hand, the Express Line 9 has 12 stations (13 starting this year) on kilometers, so a station every 2.5 to 3 km. That's really a different way of apprehending rail transport, and it would be tough to make it to say, 6 stations for the super express GTX service. It could work in principle, but nobody would want its own transfer station skipped over by the train (plus all the above-mentioned engineering problems).

But I was just throwing the idea around. Cheongra-Gimpo-Yeouido-Express Bus Terminal-Samseong-Suseo-Hanam could be a way to make it work, but you could also have Cheongra-Gimpo-Yeouido-Sadang-Yangjae-Pangyo for that matter.

I do think though that for GTX to be effective, each line has to connect to one of the major railway stations (Seoul, Cheongnyangni, Yongsan, Suseo). In that way it's more than just an express subway, but actually a way to connect (business) travelers coming in and out of the Seoul Capital Area to their destination.
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Old March 31st, 2017, 09:56 PM   #284
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Seoul needs more Express Services especially during Rush Hours. I know they do have in some lines where they skip several stations but really need to expand it a bit more
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Old April 1st, 2017, 04:45 PM   #285
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Seoul needs more Express Services especially during Rush Hours.
Seoul doesn't really have a proper regional rail network. There are a few lines, like parts of Line 1, and the Chuncheon line that fit the bill, but that's just about it. Where other cities would have a subway system, and a commuter system, Seoul mostly has the subway. It's great in that it goes almost everywhere, but it does take a long time to get in from the outskirts. Line 9 is a bit different, as it was specifically built with station bypasses in some places for express services, but it isn't as good as, say, the 4 tracks of the NYC underground as the timings have to be exact so that the fast train can pass. In NYC you can throw on extra express trains as they have different tracks, Line 9 would have to delay/cut stopping services for that.

That's why the GTX service, and the new Gangnam KTX line are happening, it's kinda crazy that Seoul doesn't have a bunch of terminus stations serving nearby cities. Where other cities had multiple termini and connected them with subways (RER, Crossrail), Seoul is now just building equivalent systems in a single go and completely underground. It's the only way to get express services.
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Old April 2nd, 2017, 01:41 PM   #286
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It's just kind of a shame that the government is only now getting around to building the kinds of transit systems a city Seoul's size was always going to need.

Auto dependency is so big in this country, and there's no reason for that to have been the case; rail was always going to have been a much more efficient means of getting people around in the kind of dense population centers South Korea's topography necessitates.

The fact that, as far as I've been able to find, the Changwon and Ulsan light rail plans have fallen through, cities with populations like those of Daejeon and Gwangju are served by only one metro line, and the Gyeongjeon line isn't going to be fully upgraded and double-tracked for many more years tells me that Korean bureaucrats still aren't utilizing rail the way they should.
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Old April 2nd, 2017, 07:54 PM   #287
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The government has prioritised the subway in Seoul, and the KTX system. It does make sense as they will serve more people than the GTX will by itself. The GTX only makes sense now as there is the subway backbone so it will serve the whole of the region and not just the dozen stations.

The fact that other cities have subways is actually impressive. The UK has a similar population and only really has two, plus a couple tram systems. Daejeon and Gwangju both have additional lines being built, I think the plan for Daejeon is 5 or 6 lines? It'll get there.
Tbh, don't know about the light rail projects, if they were light metro then that's a pity, especially as Ulsan is spread out, but if they were trams then IMO they should be dropped, Korea might do well with trams in the future, but not at the moment.
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Old April 2nd, 2017, 11:03 PM   #288
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But is there any reason that they couldn't have planned everything more-or-less simultaneously? I mean after all, South Korea is known for a) massive construction projects, b) strong executive command of the economy, and c) the kind of tightly-knit public and private sectors that make logistics and planning-intensive things possible.

I know it's not really an analogue due to the historically privatized nature of its rail development, but why wasn't Korea built around rail like Japan was? Lack of domestic technology making that kind of things at odds with Korea's historical protectionism and import substitution industrialization? Or is it (as I'd suspect is at least as likely) the influence of the U.S. in terms of infrastructure development paradigms?

Edit: As an addendum, the comparison with the U.K. is particularly revelatory. Yes, South Korea may have more metro coverage, but if you compare relative transit connectivity--such as (as you mentioned) smaller regional cities' rail coverage, or especially rail km/capita--South Korea lags far behind.

It just seems like--given Korea's fiscal space, need for economic stimulus, need to reduce carbon emissions, and need for fast, time-efficient transport--rail should be undergoing a Chinese-style expansion.

Last edited by aquaticko; April 3rd, 2017 at 12:31 AM.
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Old April 3rd, 2017, 12:47 PM   #289
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I think that Korea likely was built around rail, particularly as it was a colony of Japan, I don't know enough about the history of rail before the Korean war, but my guess is that anything built before was destroyed. Post-war the priority was on rebuilding links between Seoul and the rest of the country, and I'd hazard a guess that deep level subway that could double as underground shelters seemed a better investment than surface routes in cities. I suspect that the whole motorway craze that swept the world whilst Korea was rebuilding itself didn't help either.

Anyway, I think you're being a bit harsh, the first subway line in Seoul only started construction 40ish years ago - London has the oldest underground in the world and is only now building anything similar to the RER/GTX.

I think that Korea already underwent a Chinese-style expansion, and per capita the building going on now is probably not that different, you need to remember as well that the Chinese expansion is because they've been lagging behind Korea in terms of rail transport. It wasn't that long ago that there were only a few single line metros in Chinese cities the size of Busan.

Anyway, in recent times the KTX service has increased coverage and stations, the other rail services are getting much needed improvements, dozens of subway lines are being built, the GTX and "light metro" lines being constructed now likely brings Korea up to the point where a lot more rail isn't really needed. Good timing tech-wise as my guess is that things like maglev, selfdriving electric buses etc etc are all likely to be competing once the GTX lines open.

My big wishlist for transport in Korea would be better night time transport (24hr subway over the weekend, night buses), I'd also like too see a rail tunnel to Jeju/Japan, maybe a route through NK, but I don't know that any of those are really likely.
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Old April 3rd, 2017, 06:23 PM   #290
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You're probably right, it just seems like rail wasn't given its due attention in the past, and, like all infrastructure, it's difficult to implement after-the-fact, whereas road obsession has had deleterious effects on Korea's urban fabric, and urban development generally, which I don't think rail would've had. Maybe that's just my bias showing.

A rail tunnel to Japan seems unlikely for a good long time, but a rail tunnel to Jeju makes sense. Whether that means it'll happen is anyone's guess.

Edit: On the Jeju rail note, I'll cross post this news to the South Korea Railways thread: Mokpo ~ Jeju submarine tunnel is promoted (Korean)

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Old April 3rd, 2017, 09:31 PM   #291
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Seoul rail projects

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimahrikku1 View Post
Gosh... I night be wrong on the Line 9 thing, but from my experience, I believe only a certain number of stations have 4 sets of tracks. In some stations, there is a separate platform for local and express service, and on some it's just at the same place. And I think that when you look at the train schedule, the express and local trains always follow each other at the same frequency (for exemple, all the eastbound express trains from Shinnonhyeon depart 2 minutes after the eastbound local trains). I think that since there is only a limited set of stations where the express train can overpass the all-stop ones, they have to have it all planned out because they can't just pass at any given station. That's what I'm enclined to say based on my riding experience, reading of the timetables and observations.

But even if all the stations were quadruple-tracked (and even the entire lines for that matter), I don't think it would be easy to fit GTX lines. GTX Line A and Shinbundang Line will actually use the same tracks for the central part of the city, when Shinbundang is extended from Noksapyeong to Samsong (in Goyang, not to me confused with Samseong in Gangnam). But the Shinbundang line has wider tunnels, and its tracks have higher curve radius. If you look at a detailed map, you'll see that Line 9 zigs and zags quite a bit. I don't think you could have trains running at 200 kph (or even 150) there. And then there's the whole problem of retroffiting a line for new trains, with new signaling and additional stations. The GTX A / Shinbundang section is being planned with both services in mind. Line 9 already opened almost 10 years ago, and I don't really think they could adapt it for GTX traffic (especially without interrupting traffic on the already taxed line 9).

Also, as to offering service similar to GTX on Line 9 (with subway trains), I think that would mean creating a third tier of service. With the current plans, GTX Lines would be about 45km long and have around 8 stations each (so that's only a station every 6 or 7 km). On the other hand, the Express Line 9 has 12 stations (13 starting this year) on kilometers, so a station every 2.5 to 3 km. That's really a different way of apprehending rail transport, and it would be tough to make it to say, 6 stations for the super express GTX service. It could work in principle, but nobody would want its own transfer station skipped over by the train (plus all the above-mentioned engineering problems).

But I was just throwing the idea around. Cheongra-Gimpo-Yeouido-Express Bus Terminal-Samseong-Suseo-Hanam could be a way to make it work, but you could also have Cheongra-Gimpo-Yeouido-Sadang-Yangjae-Pangyo for that matter.

I do think though that for GTX to be effective, each line has to connect to one of the major railway stations (Seoul, Cheongnyangni, Yongsan, Suseo). In that way it's more than just an express subway, but actually a way to connect (business) travelers coming in and out of the Seoul Capital Area to their destination.

I wonder that a Seoul based inhab. is so thinking about his own system.
However Seoul is far away to be the 2nd largest city of the world! many others are before!

Subway and urban railway construction follows always behind development of the cities. Seoul opened the first line in 1974 - a Japanese style city tunnel with through service of KNR lines from booth sides. This is in fact the only line where you can establish a express system - as it works very well in Japan at only 2-track lines and intersection stations - but this only outside and not in downtown where they have intervalls up to 85 sec. in rush! - so it can't work in Seoul.

Then you wrote about CrossRail RER etc. this are separate systems! no subways. operating with other rolling stock. Only London and NY as well as Chicago and Philadelphia haves real express service in their subway system by 3 or 4 track lines. the 3 track lines works only with express during rush-hour in one direction.

the GTX line can be build in just 5 years - look to your town. During the 1990th Seoul build over 160 km of Metro and 3 new KNR Lines!
during that time many projects came up in the 5 other big Korean cities - the first lines were build but after 2000 the expansion program came to halt - often until now. Only Busan continued to build, Incheon line 2 and Daegu line 3.

When I see it correct, the "circle" will formed by some separate current project which will Railway lines - no subways and no express-lines except that one to Anan.

However I agree that the traveltime for outer lines is to long and express service is necsessary. But now difficult to establish at existing lines because of the growing surrounding areas. I see a upcoming problem to have no GTX station in direct downtown - only east and west side - so the riders must change for the subway which results in more congestion at the today much crowed sections. this have to be improved! The only problem is there wher to build acces to such a new station in central...
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Old April 3rd, 2017, 11:29 PM   #292
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I wonder that a Seoul based inhab. is so thinking about his own system.
However Seoul is far away to be the 2nd largest city of the world! many others are before!

Subway and urban railway construction follows always behind development of the cities. Seoul opened the first line in 1974 - a Japanese style city tunnel with through service of KNR lines from booth sides. This is in fact the only line where you can establish a express system - as it works very well in Japan at only 2-track lines and intersection stations - but this only outside and not in downtown where they have intervalls up to 85 sec. in rush! - so it can't work in Seoul.

Then you wrote about CrossRail RER etc. this are separate systems! no subways. operating with other rolling stock. Only London and NY as well as Chicago and Philadelphia haves real express service in their subway system by 3 or 4 track lines. the 3 track lines works only with express during rush-hour in one direction.

the GTX line can be build in just 5 years - look to your town. During the 1990th Seoul build over 160 km of Metro and 3 new KNR Lines!
during that time many projects came up in the 5 other big Korean cities - the first lines were build but after 2000 the expansion program came to halt - often until now. Only Busan continued to build, Incheon line 2 and Daegu line 3.

When I see it correct, the "circle" will formed by some separate current project which will Railway lines - no subways and no express-lines except that one to Anan.

However I agree that the traveltime for outer lines is to long and express service is necsessary. But now difficult to establish at existing lines because of the growing surrounding areas. I see a upcoming problem to have no GTX station in direct downtown - only east and west side - so the riders must change for the subway which results in more congestion at the today much crowed sections. this have to be improved! The only problem is there wher to build acces to such a new station in central...

I AGREE about your perspective

But fortunately New high speed bullet and subway will be connected into DOWNTOWN
GTX A and B and Shinansansun 신안산선 will be new built it's station in SEOUL STATION.
Government think seoul station(DOWNTOWN) will be very ARRIVAL station as EURO-ASIA continental express.
http://www.cnews.co.kr/uhtml/read.js...01550485300559

Government and KORAIL make huge development project in Seoul station they think EURO-ASIA continental express.

Now seoul station only accommodated KTX, ordinary low speed train and subway 1,4line
But New KTX(수색~금천구청), GTX-A and ·GTX-B, Shinbundang line and shinansansun line will be passing seoul station according to the 3th national train plan

So they make huge development project about seoul station complex(to built tall building and develop man building and underground)

Cause Government prepare Seoul station(downtown) as Unification korea and EURO-ASIA inter continental express arrival station.


http://news.mk.co.kr/newsRead.php?&year=2017&no=210439
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Old April 4th, 2017, 12:37 PM   #293
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pic hosting
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/htm...040401158.html

according to the ministry of land korea
Today GTX A finish "economical feasibility" and move to step 2 민간투자시설사업 기본계획(RFP). Before U/C begin.
this gtx will be make as BTO-rs project like shin an san sun new seoul subway

GTX A 83.3㎞(among them 삼성-동탄 sect now u/c ongoing well 39.5㎞)
average speed 116㎞ maximum 180㎞ per a hour
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Old April 4th, 2017, 02:56 PM   #294
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Question about that Samseong-Dongtan section: I know that the section between Samseong and Suseo stations needs to be constructed, but won't GTX A be using the SRT tracks from Suseo to Dongtan? If so, what work needs to be done on that section?

I'm also left to wonder about platform heights. I know that the next gen KTX trainsets will be EMU's with a wider loading gauge than the current trains, which would seem to make level-boarding platforms make more sense, and assuming that the GTX trainsets will be of roughly the same loading gauge, will they end up turning the Suseo KTX line into level boarding? (I know that part's an awfully fine detail, so maybe that hasn't been worked out yet; just curious).
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Old April 4th, 2017, 06:47 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Question about that Samseong-Dongtan section: I know that the section between Samseong and Suseo stations needs to be constructed, but won't GTX A be using the SRT tracks from Suseo to Dongtan? If so, what work needs to be done on that section?

I'm also left to wonder about platform heights. I know that the next gen KTX trainsets will be EMU's with a wider loading gauge than the current trains, which would seem to make level-boarding platforms make more sense, and assuming that the GTX trainsets will be of roughly the same loading gauge, will they end up turning the Suseo KTX line into level boarding? (I know that part's an awfully fine detail, so maybe that hasn't been worked out yet; just curious).
images upload

As you see above map gtx a's southern part is total 39.488km

Among them 9.783km(samseong~suseo) is New tract: I called it "N"

On the other hand 29.7km(suseo~dongtan) is share section which mean GTX A using the SRT track from Dongtan~suseo 29.7km(this is share section) : I call it as "O"

FURTHERMORE "N" consist with 1,2,3 section
1 section is 3.47km design by 동부엔지니어링
2 section is 2.96km built by 대림(u/c ongoing) : also 4 section of "O" 199m sung nam station built by 한진중공업(u/c ongoing)
3 section is 2.99km design by 삼보기술단

So about your question GTX A need to built new track the section between Samseong and Suseo stations for the purpose connected with suseo~dongtan section

about other question excuse I'll reply later
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Old April 5th, 2017, 05:53 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
But is there any reason that they couldn't have planned everything more-or-less simultaneously? I mean after all, South Korea is known for a) massive construction projects, b) strong executive command of the economy, and c) the kind of tightly-knit public and private sectors that make logistics and planning-intensive things possible.

I know it's not really an analogue due to the historically privatized nature of its rail development, but why wasn't Korea built around rail like Japan was? Lack of domestic technology making that kind of things at odds with Korea's historical protectionism and import substitution industrialization? Or is it (as I'd suspect is at least as likely) the influence of the U.S. in terms of infrastructure development paradigms?

Edit: As an addendum, the comparison with the U.K. is particularly revelatory. Yes, South Korea may have more metro coverage, but if you compare relative transit connectivity--such as (as you mentioned) smaller regional cities' rail coverage, or especially rail km/capita--South Korea lags far behind.

It just seems like--given Korea's fiscal space, need for economic stimulus, need to reduce carbon emissions, and need for fast, time-efficient transport--rail should be undergoing a Chinese-style expansion.



Well, for all purposes, Korea only became a high-growth emerging economy in the 80s. Many firms were nurtured in the 60s and 70s and started to bring in revenue (mostly from abroad), and the country was still recovering from the war, but until the 80s, painting Korea as an economic success story was premature. They had had a good 10 years or so, but that didn't mean the development could keep going and that growth would be created in the following decades. Many countries have had a nice run for a decade and then busted or faded out. So I think for the administration, mapping out an entire plan for future infrastructure projects would have seemed far-fetched and not realistic.


I think it's also necessary to remember that while many people have the view right now that Korea is "the new Japan" or "Japan with a 5-year economic gap" (which are over-simplifications), the gap hasn't always been for Korea to "follow" Japan with a 5 to 10 years gap. Japan had already industrialized by the 1890s, which was showcased by its imperialistic endeavours and its victories over the Qing Dynasty and the Russian Empire. On the other hand, Korea had only slightly begun reforms before the colonial era, and the Japanese didn't modernize Korea extensively. There were improvements (of course at the cost of human rights and self-determination), but they were limited and served Japan's supply lines. Maybe an independent Korean empire, where structural changes were ongoing from the 1980es, would have modernized the country ā la Meiji restoration better than the Japanese did. We will never know. Of course, the consequences of the Japanese occupation went far beyond the economic changes, and I'll avoid controversial topics regarding Korea's occupation. In any case, even after WWII, Korea remained very agrarian, and of course the country was ravaged after the 1950-53 war. So, long story short, you could argue that, to some degree, Korea was in 1951 (when most of the conflicts stopped) at a point Japan was in the 1860s. The gap with Japan was huge at the time, and Korea wasn't in a position to just emulate Japan's recipe and replicate it 10 years later. Few gave Korea a chance, including the US Central Command, who didn't think the country would succeed but just needed a buffer zone with the PRC and the USSR.


So, although comparing Korea with Japan's development is certainly interesting and pertinent to some degree, I think we shouldn't look at it only with the lens of Japan's 20th century development.


As for the rail industry in particular, I'd start at by mentioning geography. Korea is certainly a good country for rail transport, but Japan is just the PERFECT one for it. All of Japan's main cities are located along a single axis: Fukuoka-Hiroshima-Kobe-Osaka-Nagoya-Tokyo (and then extend North to Sendai and Sapporo). Korea shares many traits with Japan but Korea does have more plains on its western side and cities more spread out. You can draw out a Busan-Pyongyang rail axis, but it would leave out quite a few cities not part of that axis (Gwangju, Jeonju, Pohang, Gangneung, and in today's North Korea: Hamhung, Chongjin). So I don't think that, unlike in Japan, you could have solved all of pre-division Korea's transportation problems with rail.


The framework of the transportation infrastructure wase laid down in different eras as well. Japan started becoming heavily industrialized towards the end of WWI, an era when rail reigned supreme and automobile were at the time what the hyperloop is now. Rail developed first, and the road and expressway infrastructure then was built to be connected with the rail stations. In Korea, the transport infrastructure system was mostly developed in the between 1955 and 1975. This was the era of the USA's Interstate Highway System, and it's not surprising that Korea tried to emulate it, especially with the US influence on South Korea at the time.


Rail has only been back in the game in the 1980s in the world. Sure the Shinkansen started in the 1960s, but it didn't really catch up in Europe until the 1980s. So I don't think that for planners in the 1960s, when Korea didn't have technological capacities anywhere near that of Japan, choosing high speed rail over expressways would have seemed like the best solution.


As you mentioned, and I agree with you, the rail network density in Korea is still much lower than what is probably needed. But let's not forget how long these kind of projects take. Such infrastructure projects take at least 30 years. The KTX was first envisioned in the early 1980s, but after 2017, we have not finished developing it yet. As for bringing "normal" train service to new areas, this is a project underway, but there are many lines that have been built (as well as doubled and electrified) or that will be in the near future: Gyeonggang, Namhae, Donghae, Seohae, Jungang... it takes time and resources of course.



Moreover, although the commuter rail segment hasn't been implemented yet (ie. GTX for Seoul), the Korean government has already worked on and completed many infrastructure project.

- Korea opened its first expressway in 1969, but it's not until the second part of the 1980s that the network began to take shape. And the Seoul Ring Expressway was only completed in the 2000s.
- Subway begun very late in Seoul. Line 1 opened in 1974, but it was used on what is pretty much the Gyeongbu railroad. So for the first underground lines that were truly completed (2,3 and 4), you had to wait until 1990. And now it is frequently considered the best in the world. And Busan's subway system is not too shabby either
- In a short amount of time, Korea has built two of the most important harbors in the world: Incheon and Busan. Incheon's North Harbor was completed recently, and the South Harbor as well, and with further grow with the Incheon New Port (Songdo). Same story for Busan. The old port has been supplanted by new ports in the west of the city: Gamcheon, then Dadaepo, now the New Busan / Jinhae harbor
- KTX only started offering service in 2004, but most of its lines opened after 2010.
- Korea has also opened and greatly expanded its air transport infrastructure, with the opening and expansion of Incheon airport, large expansions at Jeju and Busan, and a new airport planned for Jeju.


So in the middle of all these developments that mostly happened during the past 30 years, it's not surprising that commuter rail was left off for a while, its direct competitor is the urban expressway, and as for rail, it faced the development of the more visible high-speed rail and subway projects. Now, with the KTX infrastructure soon to be completed, and the subway system already expanded very far away from city centers, it's finally commuter rail's time to shine. I'm talking about "commuter rail" as a whole because both Daegu and Daejeon have such projects and Dongae Nambu serves a fairly similar purpose in Busan as well, using parts of the old Gyeongbu railroad and purpose-built sections as well. These projects are all relatively new (GTX was revealed in 2010, and the others in the following years), so it will take a bit more time. I think that by 2025, we can expect the majority of these services to become operational.
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Old April 7th, 2017, 09:14 PM   #297
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Seoul GTX

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Originally Posted by inno4321 View Post
pic hosting
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/htm...040401158.html

according to the ministry of land korea
Today GTX A finish "economical feasibility" and move to step 2 민간투자시설사업 기본계획(RFP). Before U/C begin.
this gtx will be make as BTO-rs project like shin an san sun new seoul subway

GTX A 83.3㎞(among them 삼성-동탄 sect now u/c ongoing well 39.5㎞)
average speed 116㎞ maximum 180㎞ per a hour

This map shows clearly the lucking of a station in central seoul - between lines 2 3 and 4 in the Uljiro Area - existing entrances could be used because it will be very deep. otherwhise the GTX brings more congestion to these lines in downtown!
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Old April 30th, 2017, 01:05 PM   #298
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SAM_3520 by Inno Inno, Flickr에서
SAM_3521 by Inno Inno, Flickr에서
SAM_3523 by Inno Inno, Flickr에서









image upload free

Youngdongdaero underground massive transfer project's official "environmental assessment paper"'s rendering and plan.
Now Seoul ongoing public hearing about New massive transfer project in front of HYUNDAI HQ

This project U/C by HYUNDAI'S public donation

http://www.incheonilbo.com/?mod=news...w&idxno=761437

SHINANSAN NEW SUBWAY official selected prepare U/C begin
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 01:01 AM   #299
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http://www.hankyung.com/news/app/new...=2017050111711

Subugwanguck subway/train project must reevaluate due to train deposit's re using plan impossible.

New Seoul's subway which connected between Incheon satellite city of seoul and seoul's famous youth college, delayed.

actually seoul is going to re using former old train deposit site shinjungcharanggyjee.
but after economical feasibility evaluate it result lost feasibility.
So Seoul government try to find new site and push again
but nobody know how long it take time until U/C begin

Subugwanguck subway/train project is 17.3㎞ 9 station project
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Old May 13th, 2017, 08:11 AM   #300
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Destruction of new Seoul Station and underground Seoul Station - Noryangjin Station section

A new project has been proposed. A very big project if I might say. As mentioned, the entire Seoul Station would be rebuilt underground. As part of the project:

- The " Modern" Seoul Station would be demolished (see picture of the current station)

http://alog.auric.or.kr/JC/Post/b66c...9e792ece5.aspx

It's big but it's a bit of a mess with various parts. Nothing to be ashamed of, but there is certainly an argument for rebuilding it, underground or not

- All the lines would be rebuilt underground, in a grid pattern, instead of the current layout which is a bit of a mess.
- It would allow for the addition of new lines, such as the Shinbundang line (late 2020s), Shinansan line (line 2020s), GTX A (2023), (mid 2020s), as well as the existing AREX, Gyeongui-Jungang, KTX, regular train lines. Subway lines 1 and 4 would stay where they are currently, slight East of the other tracks.
- The railroads would then be rebuilt underground for the entire Seoul Station - Noryangjin station section (including Yongsan station). The existing overground section would then be replaced by a park, as has been the case recently for the Gyeongui Line Forest Park for example, although that new park would be wider. This project is also related to the Yongsan US garrison park transformation, which should be completed by 2027.

Sounds very interesting, although many questions remain regarding feasibility and financing



http://news.chosun.com/site/data/htm...051300180.html
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