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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:37 PM   #201
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This is what I was trying to post. Austrian sign in Italy:
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Old September 18th, 2011, 10:36 AM   #202
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Amsterdam was the capital of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.



Are you serious?
Brussels was the capital of the UK of NL too. Even the parliament shifted from Brussels and The Hague every few years.

At the time of the UK of NL, brussels was a 85% + dutch/flemish speaking city with Flemish background. Things really changed after the Belgian revolution.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 11:50 AM   #203
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Quote:
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Right. I thought this is thread "Road signs showing cities in non-neighbouring foreign countries".

Györ (H), Wien (A), Brno (CZ) -



...

Rzeszow (PL) near Svidník -



...
However, I've never seen sign with Ukrainan town. Only signs with the name of border crossing Vyšné Nemecké are visible in the "far east" of Slovakia (Michalovce). In Košice (90km from UA border), there are only signs with direction to town Michalovce.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 02:37 AM   #204
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Quote:
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Brussels was the capital of the UK of NL too. Even the parliament shifted from Brussels and The Hague every few years.
It was purely symbolical. The true power was in Holland. Otherwise Belgium would never have seceded from the UK of NL.
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At the time of the UK of NL, brussels was a 85% + dutch/flemish speaking city with Flemish background.
The elites and bourgeoisie were already French-speaking, which is why they couldn't stand the elites of Holland who controlled the UK of NL.
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Old September 25th, 2011, 12:25 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
It was purely symbolical. The true power was in Holland. Otherwise Belgium would never have seceded from the UK of NL.

The elites and bourgeoisie were already French-speaking, which is why they couldn't stand the elites of Holland who controlled the UK of NL.
It wasn't symbolical, the northern NL had 55 seats and the southern NL had also 55 seats in parliament. The real problem for the southern part was the monarch, he was a bit of an enlightened despot.

The elites and bourgeoisie: they were Parisian revolutionaries and banned from France. No one in europe wanted them, the UK of NL didn't realy control the border and they messed up the southern part.

The detrimental effects are still visible in nowadays Belgium.
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Old September 25th, 2011, 12:45 PM   #206
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When you talk about William I as "a bit of an enlightened despot", you can leave out the "enlightened". It was classical restoration autocracy. Unless you see enlightenment in William's support for trade and new roads.

The one thing that I as a Dutchman can say is that I can fully understand that large groups of Belgians got fed up with him. Essentially, they were 18 years ahead of the Dutch. The sole thing worth a nice "what if" scenario is what might have been, had the Dutch realised earlier that the United Kingdom of the Netherlands was an unbalanced autocracy in which, as the Belgians argued, things needed to change in favour of the South (under-represented in Parliament), the French language (treated unfavorably in Flemish areas with large numbers of francophones) and Catholicism (treated as an inferior religion).

Anyway, why are we discussing this type of history when it simply comes to signposting towns abroad?
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Old September 25th, 2011, 05:37 PM   #207
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Quote:
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It wasn't symbolical, the northern NL had 55 seats and the southern NL had also 55 seats in parliament.
If that's so, the Belgians would never have revolted against the Dutch. Probably you've missed something somewhere.
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The elites and bourgeoisie: they were Parisian revolutionaries and banned from France. No one in europe wanted them, the UK of NL didn't realy control the border and they messed up the southern part.
Yeah, yeah, it's all the fault of the French, as usual!
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Old September 25th, 2011, 06:45 PM   #208
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Just because they might have had equality doesn't mean that they were happy about it.
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Old September 25th, 2011, 07:08 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
When you talk about William I as "a bit of an enlightened despot", you can leave out the "enlightened". It was classical restoration autocracy. Unless you see enlightenment in William's support for trade and new roads.
Yeah, that's a better formulation I think. This monarch was only liked in de province of Holland. Other provinces, both northern and southern, disliked this guy a lot.

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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Anyway, why are we discussing this type of history when it simply comes to signposting towns abroad?
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
If that's so, the Belgians would never have revolted against the Dutch. Probably you've missed something somewhere.

Yeah, yeah, it's all the fault of the French, as usual!
There is some really selective reading going on here .
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Old September 26th, 2011, 04:23 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
If that's so, the Belgians would never have revolted against the Dutch. Probably you've missed something somewhere.

Yeah, yeah, it's all the fault of the French, as usual!
The south had more people than the north (believe it or not), so having the same number of seats was underrepresentation.
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A B CH D F GB I L NL
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Old September 26th, 2011, 09:45 PM   #211
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Et voilà !
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Old September 26th, 2011, 09:53 PM   #212
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I fail to see what that has to do with France. French maybe but not France
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Old September 26th, 2011, 10:01 PM   #213
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Oy.

There was a correlation between the rebellion in France in 1830 (the one that is the background for Les Misérables) and the one a couple of months later that led to the rebellion, and eventually the independence, of Belgium. (A correlation on the level of the sort of rolling revolts in Arab countries that began in January, nothing more.)

From what I've read, saying that the rebels were exiles from France is an exaggeration, to put it mildly. But the French were certainly happy to see the United Netherlands - which the British and their allies, post-Napoleon, intended as a buffer to France - break up.

All of which is off topic, of course, but that's what happens when one discusses Belgium....
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Old September 26th, 2011, 11:53 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
There was a correlation between the rebellion in France in 1830
It's not a rebellion, Sire, it's a revolution.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #215
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Quote:
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The south had more people than the north (believe it or not), so having the same number of seats was underrepresentation.
You are missing out the fact that the northern people payed significantly more tax than the southern people. The northern part were the driving force of the economy at the time (1814). Also religious (Catholic/Protestant) disagreements played a role in this incredibly difficult complex of facts.

These are some reasons why there was chosen for equal representation.


Of course it would turn out to be nonsense to expect a "l'amalgame le plus parfait"

When you compare the situation of then with nowadays Belgium, you can see problems of similar nature (Flanders / Wallonia).
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Old September 27th, 2011, 01:21 AM   #216
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You are missing out the fact that the northern people payed significantly more tax than the southern people. The northern part were the driving force of the economy at the time (1814).
This is getting better and better.

Didn't they teach you in school that Wallonia (and French Flanders) was by far the most developped part of the Low Countries until WW2? The Netherlands and (Belgian) Flanders were backward and underdevelopped compared to Wallonia and French Flanders, which is why so many (Belgian) Flemings migrated to Wallonia and French Flanders.

So it's quite unlikely that most taxes were paid by the Dutch. It's far most likely that most taxes came from Wallonia (which wasn't called that way at the time anyway, it was called simply "Belgium", people didn't distinguish between Flanders and "Wallonia").

Anyway, what's with this pervasive idea among Dutch-speakers that they are always the ones paying more taxes?
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Old September 27th, 2011, 01:33 AM   #217
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For the naysayers, some data from Professor Paul Bairoch of the University of Geneva in Histoire économique et sociale du monde du XVIè siècle à nos jours.

Industrial production per inh in 1830 (base 100, where 100 is the industrial production per inh of the UK in 1900):
Netherlands: 9
Belgium: 14 (and much higher in Wallonia proper)

Industrial production per inh in 1860:
Netherlands: 11
Belgium: 28 (and much higher in Wallonia proper)

Industrial production per inh in 1880:
Netherlands: 14
Belgium: 43 (and much higher in Wallonia proper)

Industrial production per inh in 1913:
Netherlands: 28
Belgium: 88 (and much higher in Wallonia proper)
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Old September 27th, 2011, 09:26 AM   #218
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This is getting better and better.

Didn't they teach you in school that Wallonia (and French Flanders) was by far the most developped part of the Low Countries until WW2? The Netherlands and (Belgian) Flanders were backward and underdevelopped compared to Wallonia and French Flanders, which is why so many (Belgian) Flemings migrated to Wallonia and French Flanders.

So it's quite unlikely that most taxes were paid by the Dutch. It's far most likely that most taxes came from Wallonia (which wasn't called that way at the time anyway, it was called simply "Belgium", people didn't distinguish between Flanders and "Wallonia").

Anyway, what's with this pervasive idea among Dutch-speakers that they are always the ones paying more taxes?
You are talking about the industrial sector which is a highly fluctuating economy. It's a fact that you can't get much tax from factory workers.
Flanders (and the Netherlands) had a wide economy, that turned out much better for long term planning.
I think al small countries should have wide and open economies, not depending on a solely industrialized economy (not healthy at all).

The state-revenues were used to highly improve infrastructure in the southern part. Flanders/Wallonia profited hugely from this infrastructure projects, mostly financed by the Northern wealth (Also not to mention: colonial yields).

There was a sense of community but for the most part is was cleverly, bit by bit, affected by Parisian revolutionaries that were exiled in France.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 09:33 AM   #219
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Q: Does/Do your country/ies have signs for cities in neighbouring countries?
A: We talk about taxes
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Old September 27th, 2011, 09:34 AM   #220
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image hosted on flickr



Sign for Ceuta (Sebta), Spain - on the Moroccan A1.
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