daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:00 PM   #41
Junkie
Supervisor
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Skopje
Posts: 1,891
Likes (Received): 785

@ea1969 Republic of Macedonia is recognized read careful RECOGNIZED by 139 countries which four are permanent members of UN security council those are USA, Great Britain, Russia and China! Canada is in that 139 also. Australia is next.
Only one country is denying

So please don't be so pathetic and brainwashed the greek arrogance will end and the end will be very soon you have no other option except to false and lie.
Thats it no more off topic.
__________________
Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

BEEN IN:
MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS
Junkie no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:08 PM   #42
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vliegtuigbouwert View Post
We have this sign south of Amsterdam near Schiphol on the A4/E19. It says:
Brussel 205
Paris 497
London 525
http://maps.google.nl/maps?hl=nl&ie=...260.83,,0,5.09
The logic of this sign is a bit strange. For London and Paris they used the language used by the majority of these cities' population (English and French respectively), but for Brussels they used the language spoken only by 10% of this city's population. Go figure...
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:23 PM   #43
CasaMor
Africator | Moroccator
 
CasaMor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Casablanca
Posts: 16,875

Yes but you have to take the ferry and cross the mediterranean sea!

image hosted on flickr
__________________
No statement, no judgment, no argument, no comment !!!!
CasaMor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:43 PM   #44
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,569
Likes (Received): 19357

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
The logic of this sign is a bit strange. For London and Paris they used the language used by the majority of these cities' population (English and French respectively), but for Brussels they used the language spoken only by 10% of this city's population. Go figure...
Brussels is signed as Brussel in Belgium once you enter the country. It would be a bit weird to sign Bruxelles here, then Brussel in Flanders. Plus, Flanders would definitely crucify us for signing Bruxelles instead of Brussel.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:44 PM   #45
-Pino-
Funkin' down the Track
 
-Pino-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 706
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
The logic of this sign is a bit strange. For London and Paris they used the language used by the majority of these cities' population (English and French respectively), but for Brussels they used the language spoken only by 10% of this city's population. Go figure...
Brussel is nonetheless one of the two official names of a town that is officially bilingual. So for London and Paris there was not too much of a choice, for Brussels there was. I would say that the choice for the Dutch-language variant was justified: not because I believe in any arguments like "protection of Dutch language", but because you will not come across a single sign towards Bruxelles anywhere between Amsterdam and Brussels while you come across a lot that say Brussel. Go beat that with the name used by 90% of the Brussels population.

Speaking of which, to what degree are signs to towns abroad signposted in the language where the sign is (exonym), in the language used on the city entrance sign (endonym) or both?

UK: can't say given low number of towns in non-English speaking countries
Portugal: Espanha suggests use of Portuguese only
Netherlands: endonym, except for signs pointing to Luik rather than Liège. Understand that those will be replaced shortly.
Belgium: bilingual (for towns abroad that is, within Belgium only the exonym is used)
Luxembourg: endonym
France: generally bilingual, but there are lots of signs that still signpost exonym only
Germany: signposting rules provide that endonym should always be signposted, accompanied by exonym if there is potential confusion. Not always signposted according to standard though.
Switzerland: endonym
Austria: exonym
Italy: exonym
Spain: exonym
Sweden: exonym (particularly relevant for signs to Copenhagen)
Denmark: exonym (though Flensborg seems to be just about the only one)
__________________
http://www.brombeer.net/signs
-Pino- no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:48 PM   #46
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,569
Likes (Received): 19357

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Denmark: exonym (though Flensborg seems to be just about the only one)
Hamborg is also signed. Puttgarden is just Puttgarden (in Rødbyhavn), Göteborg is indicated as Gøteborg in Frederikshavn. Malmø is also used instead of Malmö.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:48 PM   #47
ea1969
R21
 
ea1969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Athens
Posts: 560
Likes (Received): 181

@Junkie

It is recognized by Greece too and a lot of financial co-operation exists between the 2 countries.

Do not worry my friend; I do not care how you like to call yourselves. I ensure you I did not want to offend anybody; on the contrary I just kindly asked not to mention this thing!
__________________
Prepared!
ea1969 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:50 PM   #48
-Pino-
Funkin' down the Track
 
-Pino-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 706
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Brussels is signed as Brussel in Belgium once you enter the country. It would be a bit weird to sign Bruxelles here, then Brussel in Flanders. Plus, Flanders would definitely crucify us for signing Bruxelles instead of Brussel.
Once you enter Belgium from the Netherlands, it will take a while before you run into the first sign towards Brussels. And as a matter of fact, when you follow signs Brussel on the Dutch A2 in the deep South, you will have to swap to Bruxelles before you will ever come across a Belgian sign pointing to Brussel (at the interchange with the E40).

Probably leaves a possible Flemish crucification as the compelling argument
__________________
http://www.brombeer.net/signs
-Pino- no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2011, 11:58 PM   #49
ed110220
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 236
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
The logic of this sign is a bit strange. For London and Paris they used the language used by the majority of these cities' population (English and French respectively), but for Brussels they used the language spoken only by 10% of this city's population. Go figure...
Actually it's perfectly logical. Paris is in France, so it is in French, London is in England so it's in English and Brussels is in Flanders so it is in Dutch.

Say someday in the future French was not the main language of Paris, but was of France, you'd still see Paris marked in French not the local language.
ed110220 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 12:04 AM   #50
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 890

Brussels is in Brussels.
DanielFigFoz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 12:07 AM   #51
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,569
Likes (Received): 19357

Yep, there are three subnational divisions in Belgium: Wallonia, Flanders and the Brussels Capital Territory. Brussels is technically bilingual though French prevails amongst its citizens, although there are large amounts of Dutch-speaking commuters in the city during work days. Suburbanization did not miss Brussels either, and most Dutch-speakers probably moved out since the 1960's. They were replaced by either French-speakers or immigrants from North Africa.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 12:19 AM   #52
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

Quote:
Originally Posted by ed110220 View Post
Actually it's perfectly logical. Paris is in France, so it is in French, London is in England so it's in English and Brussels is in Flanders so it is in Dutch.
Brussels is no more in Flanders than Llivia is in France or Swaziland in South Africa.

The official languages in Brussels are French and Dutch, and the majority language is French. So if their logic is to use the official language of each city, then it should be Bruxelles/Brussel, and if their logic is to use the majority language of each city, then it should be Bruxelles.
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 12:31 AM   #53
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Brussels is signed as Brussel in Belgium once you enter the country. It would be a bit weird to sign Bruxelles here, then Brussel in Flanders. Plus, Flanders would definitely crucify us for signing Bruxelles instead of Brussel.
Ok. So if you sign "Lille" instead of "Rijsel", is Flanders going to crucify you? Also, by this logic that Brussels is signed as "Brussel" once you enter Belgium, then you should sign Lille as "Rijsel" in the Netherlands given that once you enter Belgium it is signed as such.

Also note that Paris is signed as "Parijs" once you enter Belgium, so following this logic it should also be signed as "Parijs" in the Netherlands.

No frankly I can't find any logic in this sign. To me it just shows some unconscious bias.
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 12:57 AM   #54
aswnl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: near Amsterdam (NL)
Posts: 932
Likes (Received): 84

Belgian signposting is one big error...
aswnl no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 03:09 AM   #55
Glodenox
Registered User
 
Glodenox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zemst, BE
Posts: 1,794
Likes (Received): 655

brisavoine, can you please stop trying to stir up these useless discussions? I've seen you do that on several occasions already and it's starting to get annoying. I personally live in one of those areas where the "language disputes" take place and I seem to care a lot less than you do...

It's only logical that Brussels is signed as Brussel in the Netherlands since the Dutch is one of the official languages and the official language of the Netherlands is Dutch. Signing it as Bruxelles only would be an incomprehensible decision, using Brussel/Bruxelles would be the most complete solution, but would result in worse readability - which apparently prevailed in the reasoning. Simple enough.

Also, I agree about Belgian signposting of towns/cities in other language regions. But it's a typical "who is going to stick out its neck to make the first adjustments?" between the regions. But to be honest: I'm afraid none of the ministers responsible for roads are even aware of this idiotic difference or are just too afraid of the reaction of the public.

But for now, I think we better stay on-topic and keep talking about different nations. Belgium is still one country and it will continue to stay one. Everything else is just politicians trying to justify the existence of their profession.

Greetings,
Glodenox
__________________
Copyright remains mine for all images I post that are hosted at tomputtemans.com, unless captioned otherwise.
Glodenox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 04:08 AM   #56
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
It's only logical that Brussels is signed as Brussel in the Netherlands since the Dutch is one of the official languages and the official language of the Netherlands is Dutch. Signing it as Bruxelles only would be an incomprehensible decision, using Brussel/Bruxelles would be the most complete solution, but would result in worse readability - which apparently prevailed in the reasoning.
I find that a very weak explanation.

First of all bilingual signage in Europe is very frequent (Donostia-San Sebastian, Baile Atha Cliath-Dublin, etc.), and even in the Netherlands they have bilingual signs. Some examples.





Then look at the signage for city of Aoste/Aosta in France. Aoste was historically a French-speaking city, it's still officially bilingual today (French and Italian), although the Italian speakers are now the majority in town. So linguistically speaking Aoste/Aosta is to the French exactly the same as Brussels to the Dutch.

Now, you know how the Dutch are supposedly much more post-modern/liberal/respectful of their neighbors than the "arrogant" French. Well... that's the signage for Aoste/Aosta in France:

[img]http://i51.************/m8fn10.jpg[/img]

As you can see, the name is solely written in Italian (Aosta), language of the majority of the city's inhabitants today, with no French whatsoever (Aoste), historical and still co-official language of the city. It's as if Brussels was signed solely as "Bruxelles" in the Netherlands.

So if the French can do it, I'm sure the Dutch can do it too.
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 04:18 AM   #57
brisavoine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: desconocida
Posts: 18,049
Likes (Received): 2346

Note that oddly it's in Italy that the name of Aoste/Aosta is signed in both languages (Italian and French), see below, whereas in France it's signed only in Italian.

[img]http://i51.************/20ifjiv.jpg[/img]
brisavoine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 04:30 AM   #58
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,086
Likes (Received): 4749

No offence, but Belgium is in the Stone Age with its signs. Signing 'Bruxelles' is absolutely necessary anywhere. You can add 'Brussel', if you wish. At least the names are rather similar and the Dutch and English (and German) names are almost identical. But all this political crap in the heart of the EU is shameful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Austria: exonym
How did you come up with this conclusion? Because of a few 'Prag' signs in Linz? Austrians almost always use endonyms: Praha, Brno, Bratislava, Ljubljana, Udine, as well as a mix Maribor/Marburg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Italy: exonym
Italy is chaotic when it comes to this; sometimes they use exonyms, sometimes endonyms and sometimes both. Exonyms: Lione, Parigi, Nizza, Marsiglia, often Capodistria, Lubiana and Fiume. Endonyms: Villach (Italian 'Villaco'), Nova Gorica (Nuova Gorizia), Kranjska Gora (Monte Cragnisca), Bovec (Plezzo), Sežana (Sesana), sometimes Ljubljana and Rijeka. Both: Capodistria - Koper, Fiume - Rijeka or Lubiana and Ljubljana on two consecutive signs.

Btw, I find it interesting that Bulgarians sign 'Sofia', but Greeks sign it 'Sofija'. Greeks are more Bulgarian than Bulgarians.

Last edited by Verso; May 21st, 2011 at 04:47 PM.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 08:13 AM   #59
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,469
Likes (Received): 2083

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Italy is chaotic when it comes to this; sometimes they use exonyms, sometimes endonyms and sometimes both. Exonyms: Lione, Parigi, Nizza, Marsiglia, often Capodistria, Lubiana and Fiume. Endonyms: Villach (Italian 'Villaco'), Nova Gorica (Nuova Gorizia), Kranjska Gora (Monte Cragnisca), Bovec (Plezzo), Sežana (Sesana), sometimes Ljubljana and Rijeka. Both: Capodistria - Koper, Fiume - Rijeka or Lubiana and Ljubljana on two consecutive signs.
This is probably due to the general popularity of the exonym vs. endonym. Some foreign cities are known in Italy only by their Italian names (Parigi for example: everybody knows that Paris is its original name, but nobody uses it in a normal conversation). On the other hand, nobody in Italy uses "Nuova Gorizia": everybody call it "Nova Gorica", often with a wrong pronounciation ("Nova Gòrika"). I never even heard of "Monte Cragnisca", it must be a very old exonym fallen from usage.

So signign in Italy may be inconsistent, but for an Italian speaker they are perfectly normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Note that oddly it's in Italy that the name of Aoste/Aosta is signed in both languages (Italian and French), see below, whereas in France it's signed only in Italian.
That's because the city of Aosta is officially called Aosta/Aoste. Had the Italian sign only read Aosta, it would be against the law. On the other hand, in France there's no such law and they post whatever version they prefer: maybe, since it's in Italy, they preferred the Italian version.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2011, 10:42 AM   #60
-Pino-
Funkin' down the Track
 
-Pino-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 706
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
As you can see, the name is solely written in Italian (Aosta), language of the majority of the city's inhabitants today, with no French whatsoever (Aoste), historical and still co-official language of the city. It's as if Brussels was signed solely as "Bruxelles" in the Netherlands.
Jeez, just about the only sign in France that only features endonyms where exonyms would have been possible (the signs upstream on the A40 all say Turin-Milan) and you get an immediate big mouth that the Dutch do not signpost enough French.

Anyway, all Dutch signs pointing to Brussels will be removed within the next few years. The single sign South of Amsterdam will share the faith of the other international distance signs that used to be on the A1 and the A2 (a nice one-off, but not a lasting success) and the signs South of Maastricht will disappear too as far as I know (as part of the implementation of the new network approach on Dutch distance signs).

@Verso, I think that I have to stand corrected on Austria.
__________________
http://www.brombeer.net/signs

Last edited by -Pino-; May 21st, 2011 at 11:14 AM.
-Pino- no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium