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Old July 31st, 2016, 04:38 AM   #1001
Kpc21
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Exists there at all something like a single official transliteration or transcription of Russian to the Latin alphabet? I don't think so, it always depends on the language.

For example English will express the Russian letter в as v, while Polish or German as w. English will express the Russian letter ж as zh, Polish as ż. German - I have no idea, maybe as zch (in the same way as English use zh as analogy to sh, having this sound in their language, but not having a specific letter or letter sequence for that). Anyway, the Russian ш will be sh in English, sch in German and sz in Polish.

I referred to Russian and not Ukrainian, because there are some differences in meaning of specific letters between those two languages, like г, which is g in Russian (g like in the English word fog; referring to a specific sound in English by giving just a letter is usually quite ambiguous), but, seemingly, h (like in hook) in Ukrainian. Meanwhile, the letter х, which is just a h in Russian, in Ukrainian, from what I understand, seems to be another sort of "h" sound, in the same way as Polish used to have two "h" sounds until not a long time ago (there are still some people who can differentiate them), one written just as h (which seems to be an equivalent of the Ukrainian г) and the other one written as ch (an equivalent of the Ukrainian х).
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Old July 31st, 2016, 11:11 AM   #1002
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Yes, your're right about that, see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transkription_(Schreibung) for different writing of the same Russian name in different languages (it's in German, but I think you get the idea) and see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrill...bet#Ukrainisch for difference between Russian and Ukraine (and other languages with Cyrillic writing).

However, volodaaaa is right, it's the correct English name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzhhorod

Slovakian would be https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Užhorod
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Old July 31st, 2016, 01:08 PM   #1003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
I referred to Russian and not Ukrainian, because there are some differences in meaning of specific letters between those two languages, like г, which is g in Russian (g like in the English word fog; referring to a specific sound in English by giving just a letter is usually quite ambiguous), but, seemingly, h (like in hook) in Ukrainian. Meanwhile, the letter х, which is just a h in Russian, in Ukrainian, from what I understand, seems to be another sort of "h" sound, in the same way as Polish used to have two "h" sounds until not a long time ago (there are still some people who can differentiate them), one written just as h (which seems to be an equivalent of the Ukrainian г) and the other one written as ch (an equivalent of the Ukrainian х).
Well, that hook example is just the x letter in both Ukrainian and Russian. The transliteration for that sound is kh.
About letter г, I must say that the correct transliteration of the letter in Ukrainian is "h", in Russian - "g".
See here: in UA, 15 km from Kyiv. Transliteration correct.
BTW, see one more sign:
in Russia, St.-Petersburg, 1200 km awayOnly in Russian, as 99.9% of signs(I saw only one of Volokolamsk near Moscow with an English transcription.)

Last edited by ukraroad; July 31st, 2016 at 01:18 PM.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 02:39 PM   #1004
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i have recently started to work with one Ukrainian company. they have sent me a contract in ukrainian and english to stamp and subscribe, but they asked me to subscribe both english and russian version (although i saw it was ukrainian, not russian). it seems that Ukrainians think that rest of Europe doesn't find Ukrainian as separate language
(company is from west Ukraine, so it shouldn't be political issue)
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Old July 31st, 2016, 02:50 PM   #1005
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They will see it but let me ask...

- In how many countries can you learn "easily" Russian and Ukranian?

AFAIK, in Eastern Europe, Russian was taught in all countries till 20 yrs ago but what about Ukranian?. It would be possible to find +35 yrs old people speaking Russian (or with knowledge. I know a Romanian woman who says that she had to learn and barely remember)
In my city it is possible to learn, and as official language up to level B2, Russian but for Ukranian you may find your own teacher somewhere. I guess it will happen in a lot of cities.

Therefore, people know there is an own language but something similar that if you go to Eastern Asia.... will ask in English and Chinese for instance.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 03:50 PM   #1006
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You can study Russian "easily" in schools in Latvia(as a foreign), Belarus and Poland(as a 2nd foreign).
Ukraine has abolished a compulsory Russian education, still some schools do study it(it was pre-Yanukovych, however Viktor II wanted to introduce it as a compulsory subject).
You can learn Ukrainian in a few schools in Podkarpackie. In other places, dunno, maybe in Canada and US, but not Russia(at least it is so in Belgorod)........

STOP! Aren't we off topic now?
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Old July 31st, 2016, 03:54 PM   #1007
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Can Russian and Ukrainian speakers understand each other?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 04:09 PM   #1008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Can Russian and Ukrainian speakers understand each other?
Both can understand each other in basic levels. Usually a Ukrainian(especially in the cities and farther east) can understand and speak both Russian and Ukrainian quite well, however, in extreme east and south, the number of those bilingues is reduced in favour of Russian-only speakers.

I dunno whether a pure-Russian speaker understands Ukrainian, but afaik they do.

However, you can identify a Russian(or foreign, usually) speaker speaking Russian and his Ukrainian counterpart by
a)The г letter pronounciation
b)By the amount of a sounds. As I mentioned earlier, a Russian will say that
Quote:
letter o not under stress usually becomes a in speech
And talk in such a way.
Languages are similar, still compare: Воробей сел на дерево над прудом возле Глевахи - Varabei s'el na d'ereva nad prudom vozl'e Glevakhi.(RUS)
Горобець сів на дерево над ставком біля Глевахи - Horobets' siv na derevo nad stavkom bil'a Hlevakhy(UKR)
In English - A sparrow has sat on a tree upon a pond near Hlevakha(a village nearby Kyiv; transliteration Ukrainian)
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Old July 31st, 2016, 08:32 PM   #1009
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Probably already posted.
Wien, Tauern Autobahn, Innsbruck and Verona on the same sign on german A8 just south of munich
It's probably the most distant sign about Verona, don't know if there are signs about italian cities norther than munich.

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Old July 31st, 2016, 10:25 PM   #1010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shard97 View Post
I wonder how old that sign is if it has a 'T' (trunk) road mentioned on it rather than an 'N' road.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 10:38 PM   #1011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
It's probably the most distant sign about Verona, don't know if there are signs about italian cities norther than munich.
Has to be on both counts, though it is also an odd sign since this is the last sign for Verona for a veeeeery long time. Next sign for an Italian city would be for Bolzano/Bozen as you turn off onto the Austrian A13. And this town does appear on subsequent signs (though less prominently in Italy, where Modena becomes the control city).

This being the northernmost sign (and signs at Innsbruck being the second northernmost sign) for Italy was of course helped by the Brenner being the northernmost part of Italy. In Switzerland (A2 for Milan) and France (Milan on the A40) signs for Italian cities appear pretty far out from the border, but still at places that are more Southerly than the Brenner.
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Last edited by -Pino-; July 31st, 2016 at 10:56 PM.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 11:38 PM   #1012
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I think there might be signs for Udine in Stiria (or maybe just the I for italy?) and for sure in Carinthia before Villach (which is slightly souther than the Brenner)
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Old August 1st, 2016, 02:27 AM   #1013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Has to be on both counts, though it is also an odd sign since this is the last sign for Verona for a veeeeery long time.
It's the most logical. Signposting Bolzano/Bozen or Modena in Germany wouldn't make sense.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 09:29 AM   #1014
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It would make much more sense to signpost “Gardasee" in Germany, as it seems to be the only place in Italy they care about
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:10 PM   #1015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
I think there might be signs for Udine in Stiria (or maybe just the I for italy?) and for sure in Carinthia before Villach (which is slightly souther than the Brenner)
On A2 southbound control cities are Graz (south of Vienna), then Klagenfurt (starting from knoten Graz), then Villach (after Klagenfurt), and finally Udine (I) (starting from knoten Villach).
I don't remember seeing Udine signposted in Steirmark (unless coming from A9, as I've never driven that way), but the I oval is nothing weird in Austria, as in that country it's not unusual to see signs with 3-4 ovals (they even have\had GR and TR somewhere on A9).
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:19 PM   #1016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
It's the most logical. Signposting Bolzano/Bozen or Modena in Germany wouldn't make sense.
Isn't Bolzano/Bozen quite well-known in German-speaking countries, being the administrative centre of South Tyrol?
Verona is probably the largest city in Italy that is not a motorway control city. That's because it's at the junction of two very important motorways (A4 Turin-Milan-Venice-Trieste and A22 Modena-Brenner), but no motorway actually starts/ends in Verona. On A4 control cities are Milan (westbound) and Venice (eastbound), while on A22 they signpost Modena (southbound) and Brenner (northbound). On A4 and A22 Verona is signposted only when you're actually... in Verona! Verona is a control city only for the SS434 expressway (approx. 80km long) between Verona and Rovigo.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:20 PM   #1017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
It would make much more sense to signpost “Gardasee" in Germany, as it seems to be the only place in Italy they care about
Well, there's also the Riviera Romagnola, Jesolo, Bibione and Lignano. Plenty of Germans in summer there.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:52 PM   #1018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Isn't Bolzano/Bozen quite well-known in German-speaking countries, being the administrative centre of South Tyrol?
Yes, but they don't really care about it in Germany, and it's not a motorway junction, unlike Verona.
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 10:55 AM   #1019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I don't remember seeing Udine signposted in Steirmark (unless coming from A9, as I've never driven that way), but the I oval is nothing weird in Austria, as in that country it's not unusual to see signs with 3-4 ovals (they even have\had GR and TR somewhere on A9).
Nein. only Klagenfurt and (I). and i think that from some direction i saw some small village signed at Knoten Graz West (probably Lieboch being the first next exit).
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 03:29 PM   #1020
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I saw GR and TR even on a two-lane road somewhere in Austria, I think NW of Dravograd (SLO). Although there're still many heavy trucks from all over Europe driving through Dravograd, avoiding tolls.
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