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Old July 25th, 2005, 09:21 AM   #21
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Forget it, Phoenix. I'll stick to my idea of a city, and you're welcome to hang on to yours.

I doubt that SF is attempting to emulate Phoenix in any way.
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Old July 25th, 2005, 10:53 AM   #22
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yeah the whole problem with malls is that they took up tons of space and huge parking lots that took up even more space. this has neither of those. south center in tukwila is 1.3 million square feet on one level. this is 1.5 million square feet on 8 levels. yeah i'm kinda surprised that 1.5 million square feet would be the bay areas largest mall. after the expansion southcenter will have 1.85 million square feet. i wish seattle would have a giant shopping center like that downtown in some cool old 8 floor building
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Old July 25th, 2005, 11:27 AM   #23
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Don't forget that the old Emporium store was just sitting there languishing. After Federated bought the Emporium, and put in (and closed) the Macy's Home store, it was just sitting around for almost a decade on prime space!
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Old July 25th, 2005, 05:45 PM   #24
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The restoration of the Emporium is the best thing to come out of this, and if that contributes to Market St being livelier, all the better. The problem with shopping malls is that they take the energy of the street and neutralize it. Urbanism fails when the "outside" becomes tangential to the life of the city. No one confuses a lively city with a bustling shopping mall. In New York, you can walk from one store to another and get the excitement of the city. The streets are electric not only with neon signage but with the varied and often surprising life of the street. Ideally, cities are not just pre-fab experiences but actual reflections of the people and energies that make it up. Why on Earth anyone would think a sterile shopping mall experience can substitute for that is beyond me.
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Old July 25th, 2005, 07:53 PM   #25
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pike place market and the area outside westlake center are seattle's liveliest parts of downtown. westlake center is a mall.
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Old July 25th, 2005, 08:53 PM   #26
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The Magnificient Mile shopping street in Chicago manages to combine both the interior shopping mall with street frontage. This has the advantage of allowing vertical shops while not closing the mall to the city outside. In Minneapolis, the harsh winters mandate the use of "skywalks" which substitute for the street. This has the effect of making Minneapolis less exciting as a city, but certainly more hospitable to shoppers. Even in hot Phoenix, the trend now is to open-air malls rather than the air-conditioned kind. There's something about being outside which people love. The city's leading high-end shopping mall, Biltmore Fashion Square, pioneered this over 40 years ago, and it remains a favorite destination for that reason. Trees, fountains, and lawns can soften and modify scorching daytime temperatures. Phoenix has no urban core to speak of, so the Biltmore comes closest to replicating a civic/urban experience.
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Old July 26th, 2005, 06:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seapug
yeah the whole problem with malls is that they took up tons of space and huge parking lots that took up even more space. this has neither of those. south center in tukwila is 1.3 million square feet on one level. this is 1.5 million square feet on 8 levels. yeah i'm kinda surprised that 1.5 million square feet would be the bay areas largest mall. after the expansion southcenter will have 1.85 million square feet. i wish seattle would have a giant shopping center like that downtown in some cool old 8 floor building
According to this source, it will only be 1.7 million

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...hcenter13.html

That's still a very respectable size. I'd have thought a metro area of The Bay Area's size (over 7 million) would have larger malls, but I guess not.
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Old July 28th, 2005, 08:13 PM   #28
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It's great to read this article and all your comments. I have been trying to follow the project from the Westfield website, but even the limited images and information in the newspaper article have been a great help.

I for one, am against suburban malls, particularly those of the North American kind (many single-level, with huge single-level parking lots surrounding the centre). This centre however is, as mentioned by many posters, a different kind of mall. One of the great things it does, especially considering it is the largest in the Bay area, is that it focuses shopping on the San Francisco central area. It may indeed have an effect on Union Square and surrounding streets (almost certainly will in the short-term after opening), and that would be a shame. However the impact of this development should be to increaqse the size of the central area shopping market, more customers, more spending etc.

And fantastic that there is no new parking!!! Hope that doesn't scare too many people away, although I expect in SF that should be a minor factor.

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Old July 28th, 2005, 09:42 PM   #29
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ParraMan, there's a BART station right at the front door, plus buses, a tram etc.

Also, right behind the project is the excellent Fifth & Mission garage.
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Old August 1st, 2005, 11:42 PM   #30
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Affordable SF...underwater!

And yet still more expensive than above water level elsewhere!
_______________
Cheap Bay Area land: Are underwater lots worth anything?

By Tamara Grippi
Staff Writer
The listing on the Web site LandAuction.com was intriguing: a parcel made up of 20 mapped lots in the Salt Marsh and Tide Lands Subdivision, near Candlestick Park, would be up for auction.

"This property may be underwater," the listing states. "What could you do with these lots, we don't know. Investigate the possibilities."

While it may sound surprising that anyone would pay money for highly regulated, submerged land, those watery lots did sell during a May 22 auction, according to auction officials.

What may be more surprising is that many more parcels of underwater property exist in the San Francisco Bay — dating back to 1868 to 1876, when the state of California sanctioned the idea of future subdivisions in the Bay and actually sold off submerged lots, according to Bill Morrison, legislative liaison for the State Lands Commission.

"I'm sure at the time, members of the Legislature were saying, ‘Hey, we have land to develop,'" Morrison said.

Submerged land falls into the extreme end of the "distressed property" category — a group that may include land deemed contaminated, environmentally sensitive or facing extreme physical constraints.

Who is willing to take a chance buying such land, even if it does come cheap? As property values increase to ever higher levels, more people are willing to consider it.

"The areas that have been contaminated are expensive to clean up, but the price of property is so high, especially in the urban areas, that it becomes economically justifiable," said Morrison & Foerster Attorney Ned Washburn, who handles land-use issues.

Submerged properties are a different story. Current federal, state and local regulations make it highly unlikely a project filling in a portion of the Bay would ever be allowed. And a 1980 court decision, deeming underwater lots not yet filled subject to the public trust, seems to have settled the matter for good.

Perhaps owners of underwater land could apply to build a pier or to set up oyster beds, Washburn said. But there are not many other options, he said.

"If you own property under water, forget it," said land-use Attorney Mike McCracken of McCracken, Byers and Haesloop in San Mateo. "People may say, ‘I own 300 acres in the Bay.' That's worth probably a cup of coffee at Starbuck's."

In cases of land contamination or even physical constraints, savvy investors may be able to turn a profit, McCracken said.

"If a property is otherwise worth $1 million but because it's distressed, someone can pick it up for $400,000, they might assess it and say if I buy it for $400,000, it will cost me $150,000 to cure it," he said.

But between buying low and selling high, "things more likely have to be done," that could involve consulting with engineers, lawyers or contractors, said Niel Hildebrand with Century 21 Alliance.

Owners looking to unload a problem property must disclose the problems to the seller — a sensitive issue.

"How do you disclose something that allows the buyer to see there may be a potential benefit to owning it?" asked John Wong, president of the San Francisco Association of Realtors.

For some properties, it's difficult to imagine any benefit to owning it.

Among the listings at LandAuction.com are properties that may lack road access.

Though officials at LandAuction declined to be interviewed for this story, Todd Gladis, vice president of compliance at the firm, suggested in an e-mail there may be value to buying discounted land:

"Each of the properties listed for auction is unique in its own way and may hold different interest to different potential bidders," he wrote.
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Old August 4th, 2005, 05:25 AM   #31
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IF it wasnt regualed so strictly they could build skyscrapers that were supported on huge pillars drilled down into the bedrock its auctualy a good idea and then they could build other buildings behind it and have a whole city over the ocean
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Old August 4th, 2005, 05:40 AM   #32
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Like one of these with a skyscraper on top of it with shopping,condos,a plaza, with a boat dock

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Old August 4th, 2005, 05:41 AM   #33
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Old August 4th, 2005, 05:43 AM   #34
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it would be soooo cool it could be a new revolution of where people want to live

with increasing population land is becomming scarce and people could live on the sea
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Old August 4th, 2005, 05:50 AM   #35
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Like This

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Old August 4th, 2005, 06:03 AM   #36
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I don't really understand why people would buy land on the bay. You'll have a mob of people going after you if you want to reclaim land from the bay. I think it's stupid.
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Old October 2nd, 2005, 02:51 AM   #37
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Google bids to cover San Francisco

Google bids to cover San Francisco

Saturday, October 1, 2005 Posted at 8:33 PM EDT

Associated Press

San Francisco — Google Inc. wants to connect all of San Francisco to the Internet with a free wireless service, creating a springboard for the on-line search engine leader to leap into the telecommunications industry.

The Mountain View, Calif.-based company filed an application late Friday to provide wireless, or WiFi, service that would enable anyone in San Francisco to connect to the Internet.

Google submitted its 100-page bid in response to a request from Mayor Gavin Newsom, who is looking for a company to finance a free wireless network to lower the financial barriers to Internet access in his city.

More than a dozen other bidders are competing with Google.

If Google is picked for the San Francisco project, it would provide a testing ground for a national WiFi service — something that many industry observers believe the company is pondering as a way to ensure people can connect to its search engine any time, from just about anywhere.

"It makes sense for Google," said Chris Winfield, who runs a search engine marketing firm, 10e20. "They say their mission is to organize the world's information, so the logical next step is to provide the access to it."

Google spokesman Nate Tyler said Saturday that the company doesn't have any plans to offer a WiFi service outside the San Francisco Bay area.

"Unwiring San Francisco is a way for Google to support our local Bay Area community," Tyler said. "It is also an opportunity to make San Francisco a test-ground for new location-based applications and services that enable people to find relevant information exactly when and where they need it."

Google has been quietly experimenting with WiFi service in a few connection spots around the Bay Area and New York during the past few months. In another sign of its interest in Internet access, Google recently bought an undisclosed stake in a Maryland startup, the Current Communications Group, which is trying to provide high-speed connections through power lines.

If it wants, Google has both the financial clout and the incentive to get into WiFi. What remains unclear is whether the company has the telecommunications expertise to build and maintain a WiFi service.

The company has nearly $7.1-billion in cash, having just raised $4.17 billion in stock offering completed last month. That stock sale prompted several industry analysts to conclude Google might be preparing to build its own high-speed Internet network.

Offering free WiFi service could pay off for Google if the greater access gives the company more opportunities to field search requests and ultimately serve up more advertising — the vehicle that provides virtually all of its profits.

Building its own wireless Internet network connection also would help Google save money by reducing the fees that it pays to the telecommunications middlemen that provide a bridge between the company's data centres and Internet service providers whenever Web surfers make a search request.

Any free Internet access service would threaten to siphon revenue from subscription Internet service providers like SBC Communications Inc. and Comcast Corp. that have invested heavily in high-speed connections that depend on phone lines and cable modems.

A Google WiFi service also could divert traffic from many popular Web sites, including Yahoo, MSN and AOL, if it's set up to automatically make Google's home page the first stopping point.
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Old October 2nd, 2005, 03:02 AM   #38
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go google go!
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Old October 2nd, 2005, 07:50 PM   #39
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Sounds good, I can't wait to hear what will happen next.
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Old October 8th, 2005, 03:16 PM   #40
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Neat.
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