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Old August 4th, 2011, 10:01 AM   #41
sheytanElKebir
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One major discussion point is the discussion of the selection of a Defence Minister. Yesterday the "middle coalition" joined Iyad Allawi's coalition in parliament (they added 10 MPs to Allawi's 91 seats.. giving him 101 seats in Parliament, 12 more than Maliki's "state of Law"). This means that resolution of the selection of a new defence minister may be close.

What that could mean is that any decision taken by the "acting defence minister" (maliki himself), may be reversed in a couple of weeks!
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Old August 5th, 2011, 05:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by sheytanElKebir View Post
in my view if Iraq does end up buying the f16, they will need the following to "complete" the airf force:

3x squadrons of F16 (54 aircraft) - $3Bn
2x squadrons of Rafale /SU35 for strike (36 aircraft) - $3Bn
2x squadrons of Typhoon as interceptor (36 aircraft) - $4Bn
3x squadrons of T50/A50 as "air patrol" fighter and low end strike. (54 aircraft) - $2Bn

that would give Iraq a good defensive air force (180 modern combat aircraft / fly up to 500 sorties a day in emergency) without costing too much money ($12Bn in total). They could split the purchase over 4 years and spend about $3Bn every year on airforce purchases.

by 2016, when they have all these assets in service, they could go and contract for 5th generation fighters like F35 or PAK-FA for delivery after 2020, ensuring Iraq has an air force competitive with its neighbours.

Of course the companies are keen on selling weapons to Iraq at a good price because they need to scare their "cash cows" (Saudi/Kuwait/UAE/Qatar) into upgrading their weapons.
(a trend we can already see with the saudi purchase of Leopard 2 A7 tanks just after Iraq bought Abrams tanks)
Very good plan.

The IAF's heyday in the late 80s had around 500 aircrafts. Totally unnecessary and we saw how crap they were in 1991.

180 modern aircraft is very good as it gives us a good defensive system, but allows us to retain fighting offensive capacity as well.
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Old August 6th, 2011, 09:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ali_as View Post
Very good plan.

The IAF's heyday in the late 80s had around 500 aircrafts. Totally unnecessary and we saw how crap they were in 1991.

180 modern aircraft is very good as it gives us a good defensive system, but allows us to retain fighting offensive capacity as well.
I am an expansionist , and I really love your plan SHAYTAN , 180 fighter jets with good capabilities and multiple roles. What we need is a small , highly trained and superior air force , we do not need Saddam's 500+ non-functional Russian junk (although as I mentioned I am an expansionist).

When it comes to the Navy , what kind of ideas you guys have? especially that we have a very tiny space to the sea in the gulf and we have very dangerous or greedy neighbors. If the government implements and builds the Grand Faw Port then we will need more navy forces to defend our financial investment and the investment of our friends.

Now , things to consider include:

1- The Marshes: Usually most of the smuggling, drug trade and other influential security breaches happen in that area. Usually used by militias to smuggle Arms or personnel. We surely need an excellent and very well trained riverine force trained by the US. or the UK. to manage such a highly important area.

2- Oil terminals: As we know the oil terminals are currently protected by the US. Navy although they have taken their personnel of the AMIYAH oil terminal structures and replaced them with Iraqis and we have few boats their. But should we need some medium to small scale frigates or at least Corvettes it is very well known that countries that have smaller shores to a certain sea are more likely to build the smaller and more maneuverable corvettes than frigates or war ships.

3- Existing ports & GFP (Grand Faw Port): It is highly demanded when a certain investment is initiated that this investment is better protected. Iraq has as far as I know some six ports either inside our shores to the interiors of Basra like MAAQAL or a little bit far like UM QASSIR , so do we need frigates of corvettes or what to protect such influential targets.

Things to be discussed:

1- How much navy bases do we have? As far as I know we only have few and one which is occupied by Kuwait.

2- Does the navy need any air force? we already have the Army air force which consists of light attack choppers the or personnel carrier helicopters. Will this air force have to have any kind of jet fighters or simply depend on helicopters?

3- Should some parts of naval security duties be done by Police? we all know they are very corrupted and highly unprofessional , I swear I have seen some of them who would take bribes of 10 000 dinars! and more although their salaries hit million plus dinars scale!
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Old August 6th, 2011, 12:09 PM   #44
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our main option when it comes to seapower are MINES. MINES and more MINES.
do you know what was the, about the only effective strike by the Iraqi navy during the 1991 gulf war? Damaging the USS Tripoli aircraft carrier and rendering it inoperative for the duration of the gulf war, (reducing the pressure on iraq, just that little bit).




coupled with air defences and anti ship missiles based on all the terminals and assisted by a large fleet of anti ship and anti submarine warfare helicopters that can go out and touch the enemy far away from Iraq's coast. Equipping Iraqi aircraft with anti ship and anti-submarine warfare equipment (as well as having an efficient anti surface and subsurface reconnaissance asset like the new P8 Poseidon Aircraft from the US (3 planes allow 24hr coverage in rotation).


Finally Iraq's main local adversaries rely mostly on small vessels for attacks. Iraq needs a very effective method of supressing these vessels before they come into range, and ways of detecting and shooting down the small missiles they carry.

It is important to first "blind" then "deafen" the enemy boats using a combination of active electronic jamming and smoke / Infrared jammers/generators covering wide swathes of Iraq's coast. Once the enemy is blind and deaf. You kill it. For this role Iraq needs to invest in the most modern CIWS systems combined with the SEARAM missile system, and deploy them liberally around the Iraqi Naval zones on floating platforms as well as moving vessels. These can shred to pieces dozens of Iranian revolutionary guards boats in a matter of seconds around a 360 degree arc (and automatically without needing human intervention). Think of their attack style as a "human wave attack on small boats" . and the effective measures against Human wave attacks are necessary to stem their hordes on small boats.


Since the Enemy relies on high speed attacks with light boats and midget submarines, Iraq's defensive forces should be oriented to not only destroy these forces "in the field" but to interdict and destroy them before they leave port, which is where the need for aircraft like the typhoon fighter and SU35 long range attack aircraft come in. Destruction of as many enemy assets as possible before they have time to leave port. And using the Poseidon Aircraft, identify and attack their assets as they are en-route to attack Iraqi ports/shipping. With the narrowness of the Arabian gulf, this is a very difficult job indeed (its why iran has been smuggling the fastest small powerboats they can find on the global market, and is their main tactical advantage). To be honest, it would be almost impossible without support of the GCC states who have assets closer to the "launch points" of Iran.

But ultimately, Iraq's geographical limitations force us to take a more proactive method to maintain access to the sea in case of hostile intent by neighbours. That means taking the fight to THEIR shore to keep our shores clean and clear. We don't need ships to achieve this, but rely on round the clock airpower, surveillance and anti ship / anti submarine weapons effective against the large swarms of small boats the enemy is likely to employ.
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Old August 6th, 2011, 12:28 PM   #45
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in terms of inshore patrol boats Iraq has bought enough boats from the US and Italy to fill our needs. We don't need anymore.

We have 4 Saettia Mk4 vessels


and 21 of the swiftships patrol boats that Iraq will retrofit with anti ship missiles.
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Old August 6th, 2011, 10:08 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basrawii View Post
I am an expansionist , and I really love your plan SHAYTAN , 180 fighter jets with good capabilities and multiple roles. What we need is a small , highly trained and superior air force , we do not need Saddam's 500+ non-functional Russian junk (although as I mentioned I am an expansionist).

When it comes to the Navy , what kind of ideas you guys have? especially that we have a very tiny space to the sea in the gulf and we have very dangerous or greedy neighbors. If the government implements and builds the Grand Faw Port then we will need more navy forces to defend our financial investment and the investment of our friends.
Quote:
Now , things to consider include:

1- The Marshes: Usually most of the smuggling, drug trade and other influential security breaches happen in that area. Usually used by militias to smuggle Arms or personnel. We surely need an excellent and very well trained riverine force trained by the US. or the UK. to manage such a highly important area.
The best way to secure the marshes is to improve the livelihoods of the people there so they become your eyes and ears in the area. Of course you still need a force there, and Iraq has a new riverine patrol force for the marshes consisting of hovercrafts supplied by Britain and new grounds surveillance radars. In the future Iraq can also make use of "special weapons" that were effective in the past like blinding lasers, electrocution of parts of the marshes where infiltrators pass as well as the use of LAAR aircraft (in the past the Iraqi Department of Border Enforcement kept Pilatus PC7 and PC9 aircraft to attack infiltrators with cannons and rockets).

Quote:
2- Oil terminals: As we know the oil terminals are currently protected by the US. Navy although they have taken their personnel of the AMIYAH oil terminal structures and replaced them with Iraqis and we have few boats their. But should we need some medium to small scale frigates or at least Corvettes it is very well known that countries that have smaller shores to a certain sea are more likely to build the smaller and more maneuverable corvettes than frigates or war ships.
use CIWS systems as I stated in my previous post... but for real defense you must use offence. Destroy the enemy before they reach your facilities (details outlined in the above posts)

Quote:
3- Existing ports & GFP (Grand Faw Port): It is highly demanded when a certain investment is initiated that this investment is better protected. Iraq has as far as I know some six ports either inside our shores to the interiors of Basra like MAAQAL or a little bit far like UM QASSIR , so do we need frigates of corvettes or what to protect such influential targets.
Ports that I know are:
-Basra/maqaal (not used nowadays is it?)
-abu al falus
-faw
-khor al zubair
-Umm qasr
-khor al amaya offshore terminal
-Basra offshore terminal
-4x new offshore terminals (i don't know their names)
-Possibly the new "faw grand port" in future...

Frigates and corvettes are of little use for Iraq, the Arabian gulf is very narrow, and we are surrounded very tightly on both sides making the exit and entry of combat ships from Iraqi territorial waters almost impossible during combat periods. Iraq's best bet is to rely on a combination of offshore mines and airpower to enforce its presence in the Gulf and destroy the enemy before they can reach Iraqi ports or shipping.

In international waters ships coming to Iraq would be protected by the US, British, Russian navies. Once they reach near Iraq's territorial waters, Iraq secures them by making sure that no enemy assets can come close enough to take potshots at them.

Quote:
Things to be discussed:

1- How much navy bases do we have? As far as I know we only have few and one which is occupied by Kuwait.
-Umm qasr is the main navy base and there are some bases on the offshore terminals as well as at Faw.

Quote:
2- Does the navy need any air force? we already have the Army air force which consists of light attack choppers the or personnel carrier helicopters. Will this air force have to have any kind of jet fighters or simply depend on helicopters?
It does not have an air component today, but that is the critical piece of the puzzle if Iraq really wants to protect shipping and ports. Iraq needs helicopters, combat aircraft as well as dedicated Surveillance and ASW aircraft like the P8 Poseidon.

Quote:
3- Should some parts of naval security duties be done by Police? we all know they are very corrupted and highly unprofessional , I swear I have seen some of them who would take bribes of 10 000 dinars! and more although their salaries hit million plus dinars scale!
no. I wouldn't touch the police with a bargepole. We know that they are in the pockets of anyone with a chequebook.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 01:58 AM   #47
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Serbian and U.S. experts to train Iraqi forces
August 7 2011


BAGHDAD - Alaa al-Tai
The president of the Commission on Security and Defense Council of Representatives Hassan Sinead, said the number of Americans who will be trained to keep them in Iraq would be very limited and do not have any recipe combat.

Sinead said in a statement the "morning": that "U.S. forces Besnovha all combat, logistics and rapid intervention and portable pull end of the year 2011 as prescribed in the security agreement."

He stressed that "the Iraqi government able to deal with instructors and experts from the U.S. Army to train the Iraqi army and security forces on the tank Brahms and F-16 aircraft." He added that "the number of trainers who will remain in the country would be very limited and do not have any mission or status of combat, and the experts, American and Serbian Their task will be training and arming the Iraqi security forces. "and stressed that" the Interior Ministry had informed the commander of the armed forces as you need between 60 of the 70 coaches only, either for the training of our armed forces we need more than this little number. "

The source said a senior American "morning" on Saturday, the week will witness the launch of negotiations on the possibility of keeping the American forces for training and armament, saying in a telephone interview from Washington: "The United States want to keep about 20 thousand, but U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta did not expect approval Iraqis on this issue. "

He added that negotiations between Baghdad and Washington will discuss among other files are: "the number and type of training the trainers and the places where training will be, in addition to the size and type of armament."

The Deputy Prime Minister Ruz Nuri Shawis after a meeting of the blocks last Tuesday, an agreement the leaders to «mandated the government to begin talks with the American side is limited to training issues under the strategic framework agreement to Iraq's need for training .. and it should be any relationship is determined in all its aspects to promote the full sovereignty Iraq, where political leaders will be watching the talks to consider any final agreement with the American side, that is these talks in a spirit of friendship and cooperation ".

Informed political source "morning" recently, that "there are political orientation of the political blocs to keep power limited offer air support and the training of Iraqi forces to arms for a period not exceeding two years," noting that "the power that may remain will not be licensed to conduct military operations or bombing air, but in full coordination with Iraqi authorities and are subject to Iraqi laws outside the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, where it will be based. "

In a related context, a U.S. military official announced that the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad will represent the American side in the negotiations that are expected to start soon with the Iraqi government on keeping part of the U.S. forces in Iraq for training purposes.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 02:06 AM   #48
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there are several units of US forces that must remain in Iraq until at least 2016 including:

1-Patriot PAC3 Anti Ballistic Missile battalions (they are Iraq's only anti-missile defence, and Iraq has not bought its own thus relying completely on american missile shield).

2- Air defence fighters to stop intruders from flying over and bombing Iraq (Iraq has not bought a single fighter aircraft for air defence yet)

3- Naval defence, Iraq has not bought a single helicopter or Anti Surface/submarine warfare aircraft or vessel to protect the coastline, ports and shipping lanes meaning that we will be relying on US Navy for sometime...

4- Attack Aircraft - Iraq has not bought a single attack aircraft to support ground forces in their external defence mission

5- Tanks and Artillery - Iraq has not yet bought enough tanks and artillery units to equip more than 2 divisions, whilst the army has 14 divisions equipped only with basic armour and no tanks or heavy artillery.

I think a minimum of 20k US troop presence in Iraq, mostly for air defence/anti missile defence with the US Navy sitting just outside Iraqi territorial waters to provide overwatch is the only solution. Quite simply most of the defence budget has been spunked away on salaries and expenses, leaving very little for the necessary armament purchases. Also Iraqis have been very retarded in their dealings on arms purchases and have not used things like economic offsets as part of the agreements to buy weapons, which would have enabled them to both build the necessary infrastructure for the country as well as buy the necessary armaments for self-defence.
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:02 AM   #49
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Contracts with seven countries to arm Iraqi forces
08/08/2011






Committee announced the Security and Defense Council of Representatives has signed contracts with seven countries to arm the Iraqi forces to increase the readiness prior to the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of this year.

A member of the Committee and Abbas al-Bayati said in a statement the "morning", seeks to allocate a special budget to equip the armed forces and security services.

A member of the Committee MP Abbas al-Bayati said in a statement the "morning": that "the Commission is seeking to be a single paragraph in the budget next year on arming the Iraqi forces."

"The arming of the Iraqi army passes through three stages," pointing out that "the first phase has been completed, we now have forces equipped with modern weapons, able to protect internal security and fighting terrorists and remnants of the militants and Saddamists."

Al-Bayati said that "there are two more phases are equipped military force can control, management, deployment and securing all the logistical support has been done and will be completed before the end of the year when the withdrawal of U.S. forces from all Iraqi territory."

He continued a member of the Commission on Security and Defense: The third phase includes reinforcing the full-Iraqi forces all its different forms, and make more effort, and as soon as the implementation of this phase, pointing out that "our arms contracts promising in the field of air and a delegation will visit the United States to buy more than a squadron of F-16 , as we are seeking to buy naval patrol boats can secure our territorial waters. "

He said al-Bayati said, "What concerns us now to obtain weapons, primarily from the United States and we have contracts with them and with all of Serbia, Romania, Poland and Ukraine to Ttaghizna of all kinds, but the focus now on the United States, as we have contracts with France and Italy to get the aircraft upright and boats marine modern"
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:43 AM   #50
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Sheytan, do you think it would be a complete waste of money if Iraq purchases an aircraft carrier? If yes, why?

The way I see it is that such a carrier would mean that the navy will have aircraft to help it patrol Iraq's territorial borders. Such aircraft would be independent from the air force.
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:43 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by IraqiPlan_et View Post
He said al-Bayati said, "What concerns us now to obtain weapons, primarily from the United States and we have contracts with them and with all of Serbia, Romania, Poland and Ukraine to Ttaghizna of all kinds, but the focus now on the United States, as we have contracts with France and Italy to get the aircraft upright and boats marine modern"
What's that?
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Old August 10th, 2011, 04:04 AM   #52
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What's that?
Google translate problem
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Old August 10th, 2011, 04:48 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali_as View Post
Sheytan, do you think it would be a complete waste of money if Iraq purchases an aircraft carrier? If yes, why?

The way I see it is that such a carrier would mean that the navy will have aircraft to help it patrol Iraq's territorial borders. Such aircraft would be independent from the air force.
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:17 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali_as View Post
Sheytan, do you think it would be a complete waste of money if Iraq purchases an aircraft carrier? If yes, why?

The way I see it is that such a carrier would mean that the navy will have aircraft to help it patrol Iraq's territorial borders. Such aircraft would be independent from the air force.
The Arabian Gulf is very narrow and an Aircraft Carrier is of no use if you already have land bases from which to launch aircraft. Iraq already has the necessary airbases near the Arabian Gulf in order to launch effective patrols and interdiction of enemy naval assets. What we don't have are the aircraft (both attack and Maritime Patrol) yet.

If Iraq thinks of creating a "second front" around the Arabian Sea, we are still better off using airbases out of Yemen than having our own Aircraft Carrier. What is essential is having fighters and attack aircraft with sufficient range to reach out and hurt enemy forces out into the Arabian Sea, something which Iraq managed to demonstrate already back in 1986-88 when Iraq was bombing Sirri and Larak islands near Hormuz using aircraft launched out of Basra. Out of the hundreds of sorties these aircraft flew down, none were shot down because they effectively blinded the air defences of the enemy and preceded their attacks with the destruction of enemy radar stations on the ground.

Today Iraq has access to far better aircraft and technology than the SU22s and Mirage F1s that were used in the previous campaign in the 1980s, especially in terms of endurance. Iraq also has better access to purchase the sensors necessary to keep track of maritime movements in real time and dispatch assets to deal with them.

So whilst Iran's strategy in the gulf is the use of small boats, Iraq's strategy can only be based around the use of round-the-clock airpower.

Iraqi aircraft would be pretty much invulnerable in the air over the gulf as both Iranian ships and ground and air defences are very weak (even weaker than in the 1980s, which were no trouble back then).
However trying to ensure that Shipping can reach Iraq safely would be problematic as Iran certainly has a large number of fast patrol boats with small anti ship missiles, Since they can be launched from lots of small bays all along the coastline there's literally only a few minutes to interdict them once they launch out of port. This means that having constant maritime patrol of the sea is essential, and of course US/British/Russian naval presence to escort commercial shipping just like in the 1980s.
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:31 PM   #55
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we dont even have a minister yet ! LOL

I was woundering who does those latest deals and contracts, epecially the F16s.
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:35 PM   #56
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we dont even have a minister yet ! LOL

I was woundering who does those latest deals and contracts, epecially the F16s.
at the moment its the "acting" defence minister.... Maliki himself.

All the commanders (air force, armed forces, land forces and Navy are in place though).
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:40 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by sheytanElKebir View Post
at the moment its the "acting" defence minister.... Maliki himself.

All the commanders (air force, armed forces, land forces and Navy are in place though).
Super Maliki..
prime mininter aswell as minister of desfence and interiors. And laterly electricity..
what else ? oh hes also the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces !

Sheytan do you think its good if they get the commanders and fighters from the old army ?
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:44 PM   #58
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Sheytan do you think its good if they get the commanders and fighters from the old army ?
Almost all the officers in the New armed forces are former members of the old armed forces. The reason there is grumbling by some former officers is because the new army is much smaller than the old army, and they had to pass a number of tests (both in terms of political alliegance as well as physical tests) which meant that about 70% of the former officers had no place in the new armed forces. But for example the 9th armoured division (who operate the new M1A1AIM tanks) is literally just a "republican guard" division with a new badge...
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Old August 10th, 2011, 01:59 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Nimaa

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Old August 10th, 2011, 02:51 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by sheytanElKebir View Post
The Arabian Gulf is very narrow and an Aircraft Carrier is of no use if you already have land bases from which to launch aircraft. Iraq already has the necessary airbases near the Arabian Gulf in order to launch effective patrols and interdiction of enemy naval assets. What we don't have are the aircraft (both attack and Maritime Patrol) yet.

If Iraq thinks of creating a "second front" around the Arabian Sea, we are still better off using airbases out of Yemen than having our own Aircraft Carrier. What is essential is having fighters and attack aircraft with sufficient range to reach out and hurt enemy forces out into the Arabian Sea, something which Iraq managed to demonstrate already back in 1986-88 when Iraq was bombing Sirri and Larak islands near Hormuz using aircraft launched out of Basra. Out of the hundreds of sorties these aircraft flew down, none were shot down because they effectively blinded the air defences of the enemy and preceded their attacks with the destruction of enemy radar stations on the ground.

Today Iraq has access to far better aircraft and technology than the SU22s and Mirage F1s that were used in the previous campaign in the 1980s, especially in terms of endurance. Iraq also has better access to purchase the sensors necessary to keep track of maritime movements in real time and dispatch assets to deal with them.

So whilst Iran's strategy in the gulf is the use of small boats, Iraq's strategy can only be based around the use of round-the-clock airpower.

Iraqi aircraft would be pretty much invulnerable in the air over the gulf as both Iranian ships and ground and air defences are very weak (even weaker than in the 1980s, which were no trouble back then).
However trying to ensure that Shipping can reach Iraq safely would be problematic as Iran certainly has a large number of fast patrol boats with small anti ship missiles, Since they can be launched from lots of small bays all along the coastline there's literally only a few minutes to interdict them once they launch out of port. This means that having constant maritime patrol of the sea is essential, and of course US/British/Russian naval presence to escort commercial shipping just like in the 1980s.
Thanks for the informative reply Sheytan.

You mentioned that Iraq launched aircraft out of Basra to these islands, but, I assume that took long to reach its intended destination. Do you know how long an aircraft would take?

Do you not think then naval vessels, not necessarily an aircraft carrier, would be necessary to escort shipping into Iraqi ports? If we have such vessels then we would not need to rely on foreign ones. If hostilities do break out, Iraq has to be prepared that it would not be held hostage in the region.
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