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Old September 16th, 2016, 05:56 PM   #2041
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Architecturally they are bare and naked. And that's a clear mismatch to the facade. People will be disappointed all along, and rightfully so.

Tiaren, we'll see. I believe in the normative power of the factual. They won't have to give up their collections. It's not like half the museum would need to close down for just one room that gets reconstructed. They'd do one after another. Any collection that needs to be relocated could temporarily go to another room, perhaps even the foyer. There will be solutions and they won't be hard. The initiation might not come from the museum itself, but they aren't the only one having stakes in this project. And the people will long for the historical interiors soon enough.
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Old September 16th, 2016, 07:25 PM   #2042
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For those who think that historical interiors wouldn't be an appropriate venue for a museum, you just have to take a look at Vienna's Kunsthistorisches Museum and Naturhistorisches Museum. Those two buildings are masterpieces themselves, but their opulent historicist interiors (probably much "heavier" than Stadtschloss') are not taking all the attention from the artifacts and collections. You get to see a palace-like interior together with some of the world's most important art pieces. Same can be done in Berlin.

That being said, I'm not very enthusiastic about the interiors. For instance, Mannheim Palace, the second biggest Baroque palace in Europe, is not receiving so much love when it comes to reconstruction of its original interiors even though it would probably become a huge tourist attraction and a fantastic cultural venue. If Monbijou Palace is ever to be reconstructed (I doubt it), I hope it would be a complete reconstruction, as it wasn't that big and it wouldn't be a huge financial hit for the country or whoever wishes to rebuild it. Also, we've seen that our new 3D printing technology can be used in architecture, so it would be significantly cheaper to produce ornaments and other decorations, both for the interior and the exterior.
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Old September 16th, 2016, 07:37 PM   #2043
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Not many people care about Mannheim and its palace. In addition, it's in the state of Baden-Württemberg, probably the German region that is most hostile to reconstructions these days. So I doubt the comparison to Berlin makes a lot of sense.

Agree on the rest though, classical interiors are the best that can happen to any kind of museum collection.
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Old September 16th, 2016, 08:41 PM   #2044
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Do someone has photos of the schloss of this week, I want to see the advance
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Old September 16th, 2016, 09:54 PM   #2045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Not many people care about Mannheim and its palace. In addition, it's in the state of Baden-Württemberg, probably the German region that is most hostile to reconstructions these days. So I doubt the comparison to Berlin makes a lot of sense.

Agree on the rest though, classical interiors are the best that can happen to any kind of museum collection.
Is it because of the Greens who dominate BW, or something else?
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Old September 16th, 2016, 10:34 PM   #2046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan Man View Post
For those who think that historical interiors wouldn't be an appropriate venue for a museum, you just have to take a look at Vienna's Kunsthistorisches Museum and Naturhistorisches Museum. Those two buildings are masterpieces themselves, but their opulent historicist interiors (probably much "heavier" than Stadtschloss') are not taking all the attention from the artifacts and collections. You get to see a palace-like interior together with some of the world's most important art pieces. Same can be done in Berlin.
That is a sub-optimal solution. It is possible, but not desirable. It detracts from the collection.

I'm sure the curators of the museums hosted at the Humboldt Forum will not want to see their space taken over lengthy reconstruction that will give them less flexibility about how to organize and shuffle the exhibition areas.
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Old September 19th, 2016, 03:35 PM   #2047
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Some more impressions in and around the City Palace aka Humboldt Forum by the Tagespiegel: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/mediacent...tml?p8352332=1























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Old September 21st, 2016, 09:23 PM   #2048
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Wonderful photos. Thanks for this update!
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 02:22 AM   #2049
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Beautiful pictures. Thank you very much.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 07:08 AM   #2050
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From the German forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OscarNiemeyer View Post
Pics from my visit in Berlin





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Old September 22nd, 2016, 07:10 AM   #2051
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From the German forum II:

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Originally Posted by Kaufmann View Post
Was ein Meisterwerk! Wir sollten in jeder deutschen Stadt die zentralen Bauwerke wieder rekonstruieren





Waage oder Neptun?




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Old September 22nd, 2016, 11:54 AM   #2052
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Do we know the future location of Humbolt Box after relocation
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 03:22 PM   #2053
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As far as I know, it's not yet decided what will happen with the Humboldt Box. It'll be dismantled first but there's no new location yet, if even.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 09:07 PM   #2054
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Parking???

I get the impression that they are building this huge building in Berlin without any planned parking. In America, cities would most likely have required that the building provide off-street parking for at least some percentage of the anticipated crowds or tenants. How is it that this is not part of the plan? To me, it looks like they could have built a parking deck into the basement of the new building and easily kept it filled at least during the average work week.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 10:12 PM   #2055
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I get the impression that they are building this huge building in Berlin without any planned parking. In America, cities would most likely have required that the building provide off-street parking for at least some percentage of the anticipated crowds or tenants. How is it that this is not part of the plan? To me, it looks like they could have built a parking deck into the basement of the new building and easily kept it filled at least during the average work week.
There are some underground parking facilities couple blocks from the museum. There is a subway line in front of the building, so that probably affects the ability to dig a parking deck. Moreover, there is a river and the soil is just bad.

This all being said, I agree Berlin lacks underground parking in certain areas.
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Old September 23rd, 2016, 02:58 AM   #2056
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Screw parking! Berlin's post-war development was way too auto-centered.
Most of this is now revised, see Molkenmarkt. No need to make it worse in the course.
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Old September 23rd, 2016, 08:02 AM   #2057
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Reasoning Behind Modern Spree Facade

I've noticed the majority of people on this thread hate the spree facade. I'm not a fan of it, and I'd have preferred the historical facade, but I think I'm actually going to try to defend the decision, if you'll give me a chance.

Most of the people who hate the facade say something along the lines of "Modern architects like leaving their sh*t everywhere and forcing people to look at it, why do they continually curse us with ugly box buildings?!!" Believe me, I'm not a huge fan of modern architecture either in most cases, but this is a very closed-minded view of modern architecture. Sure, I'll confirm there's plenty of terrible, uninspired, modern architecture, but I'm not completely sure most people saying these things understand the modern design rationale against which to judge these buildings in the first place. Hear me out on this next paragraph.

Modern design, in this world of exponentially growing population, is trying to be less wasteful. In doing so, it removes ornaments and DOES ATTEMPT to make buildings meaningful in other ways, contrary to popular belief. Typically, the buildings are made to be meaningful based on either PROPORTIONS or commentary on the physical or otherwise CONDITIONS OF THE SITE, be it history, surroundings, or conceptual ideas.

The way I interpret it, the current design for the Spree facade is a commentary on the baroque facades. I cannot say whether it's a criticism or an homage, but the repetitive, boring nature of the spree facade is a reference to the repetitive nature of the baroque facades. In this way, the spree facade's design draws in a natural way from the history of the site, while asking the viewer "is it really okay to just make a big grid of windows and slap on expensive decoration to make it good looking, or should we move past this mindless decorating to something more meaningful?" I cannot continue watching as people blast the modern design as "unimaginative and boring." THAT'S THE POINT. IT WAS ON PURPOSE. The baroque facades are beautiful, but it's skin deep and honestly just a much more expensive version of the "cookie cutter" repetitive designs you all know and hate, and Stella is probably trying to get everyone to realize it.

I love baroque architecture, and again would have preferred the renaissance facades, but Stella knows full well what he is doing. If everyone thinks the facade is ugly, well you're right in that it clashes with pre-conceived notions of beauty, "skin deep and expensive" (I'll remind everyone how shallow it is to judge a person by facial proportions, no matter how attractive). That being said, I cannot fault anyone for thinking the spree facade is ugly; the notion of architectural beauty is just too ingrained on most people's psyches including my own. Still, I ask everybody to stop acting like the new Spree facade is an affront to good design; it's probably trying to critique the endless cycle of re-hashing expensive classical motifs and mindlessly calling it "good architecture".
[end rant]
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Old September 23rd, 2016, 11:31 AM   #2058
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Standing ovation for this last comment. ^
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Old September 23rd, 2016, 12:29 PM   #2059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodo00 View Post
I've noticed the majority of people on this thread hate the spree facade. I'm not a fan of it, and I'd have preferred the historical facade, but I think I'm actually going to try to defend the decision, if you'll give me a chance.

Most of the people who hate the facade say something along the lines of "Modern architects like leaving their sh*t everywhere and forcing people to look at it, why do they continually curse us with ugly box buildings?!!" Believe me, I'm not a huge fan of modern architecture either in most cases, but this is a very closed-minded view of modern architecture. Sure, I'll confirm there's plenty of terrible, uninspired, modern architecture, but I'm not completely sure most people saying these things understand the modern design rationale against which to judge these buildings in the first place. Hear me out on this next paragraph.

Modern design, in this world of exponentially growing population, is trying to be less wasteful. In doing so, it removes ornaments and DOES ATTEMPT to make buildings meaningful in other ways, contrary to popular belief. Typically, the buildings are made to be meaningful based on either PROPORTIONS or commentary on the physical or otherwise CONDITIONS OF THE SITE, be it history, surroundings, or conceptual ideas.

The way I interpret it, the current design for the Spree facade is a commentary on the baroque facades. I cannot say whether it's a criticism or an homage, but the repetitive, boring nature of the spree facade is a reference to the repetitive nature of the baroque facades. In this way, the spree facade's design draws in a natural way from the history of the site, while asking the viewer "is it really okay to just make a big grid of windows and slap on expensive decoration to make it good looking, or should we move past this mindless decorating to something more meaningful?" I cannot continue watching as people blast the modern design as "unimaginative and boring." THAT'S THE POINT. IT WAS ON PURPOSE. The baroque facades are beautiful, but it's skin deep and honestly just a much more expensive version of the "cookie cutter" repetitive designs you all know and hate, and Stella is probably trying to get everyone to realize it.

I love baroque architecture, and again would have preferred the renaissance facades, but Stella knows full well what he is doing. If everyone thinks the facade is ugly, well you're right in that it clashes with pre-conceived notions of beauty, "skin deep and expensive" (I'll remind everyone how shallow it is to judge a person by facial proportions, no matter how attractive). That being said, I cannot fault anyone for thinking the spree facade is ugly; the notion of architectural beauty is just too ingrained on most people's psyches including my own. Still, I ask everybody to stop acting like the new Spree facade is an affront to good design; it's probably trying to critique the endless cycle of re-hashing expensive classical motifs and mindlessly calling it "good architecture".
[end rant]
...or maybe you are overanalyzing this and the Spree facade is just Stella's preferred style to design facades.

Older works by Stella:







Notice the strong similarities to the Spree facade and the other modern parts of the Humboldt Forum? Stella prefers it monumental, angular, repetitive and austere but with a certain grace and elegance and a nod to neoclassicism actually, not baroque. The baroque facades of the City Palace are also highly irregular and asymmetric, playfully segmented with many protusions and setbacks, differing window shapes and sizes and not repetitive and boring at all, even if you strip it of it's ornamentation.
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Last edited by Tiaren; September 23rd, 2016 at 12:45 PM.
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Old September 23rd, 2016, 02:11 PM   #2060
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True.

In addition I'd add, that modernist architecture in general isn't less wasteful than classical, but much more. Instead using natural, sustainable materials it often goes for worse quality artificial materials that age badly, and demand much more maintenance and renewal.
The same goes for the aesthetics, 'contemporary' and considered-modern architecture often chooses expressions that are anything but timeless, and are considered outdated in the course of just a few years. That increases the pressure to overdo or even demolish buildings after just some years. And then there's floorplans, oh my gosh they screwed up so bad in this regard in the past few decades, way too many buildings since post-war times are highly impractical and inefficient.

In that regard, we live in highly wasteful times. While many medieval, baroque, classicist etc. buildings still work greatly today and are kept with care, I highly doubt many modernist buildings will enjoy this fate.

I won't over-generalise though, of course there's very good quality modernist buildings, too. But while high quality and durability is the rule in traditional/classical architecture (due to sustainable materials and techniques), it's just an exception in modernism since the second half of the 20th century.
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baroque fassade, berlin, construction field, heart of the city, humboldt lab dahlem, lustgarten, museum island, prussia, reconstruction, stadtschloss, stella

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