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Old December 30th, 2016, 01:34 AM   #2161
keepthepast
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Herr Schinkel looks to his right and can see his masterpiece being rebuilt.



Then looks to his left and says 'what the hell is going on?'




(my pics)
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Old December 31st, 2016, 12:27 AM   #2162
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Happy New Year to All, particularly on the Berlin, Dresden, Potsdam, Frankfurt, and Hamburg threads!

May 2017 yield much more progress in our cumulative desires to see Germany rebuilt properly. All the best!
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Old December 31st, 2016, 07:47 AM   #2163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cilindr0 View Post
Now, that the year is finishing, it would be nice to see a before and after. From the first of January and the last days on December, to see the evolution of the works!
Here they are. I went through the webcams and took a screenshot of each façade as they were on January 1 and December 30 of this year. The first photo of the Nordfassade is from May 3, since that webcam wasn't activated before then.

Sudfassade:

January 1

[IMG][/IMG]

December 30

[IMG][/IMG]

Westfassade:

January 1

[IMG][/IMG]

December 30

[IMG][/IMG]

Ostfassade:

January 1

[IMG][/IMG]

December 30

[IMG][/IMG]

Nordfassade:

May 3

[IMG][/IMG]

December 30

[IMG][/IMG]

And last, but by no means the least, Schlüterhof!

January 1

[IMG][/IMG]

December 30

[IMG][/IMG]

Happy New Year to all!
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Old December 31st, 2016, 09:03 AM   #2164
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The comparison pictures are absolutely great. Sehr gut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
Сталин wrote: Those were the Allied B-17s that did the work, and cities destroyed during war for strategic advantages shouldn't count.

The historic centers of Berlin, Dresden, Warsaw, and Rotterdam were "strategic"? OK.


Сталин wrote: Mostly all historic buildings in Germany were preserved by the extreme right national socialists.


Have you bothered to look at the post war plans for Germania? Linz? Munich? Warsaw?


Communists are the ones who are rewriting history to divide everything into classes.

Capitalists don't divide people into classes??? ROFL Have you flown on a commercial airliner? So you're saying that social and economic classes are a myth? You are a product of Putin's propaganda.

That was during WWII, and those cities were mostly bombed by the Allied B-17 raids.

So, you agree, guns kill people not people using guns kill people.

Those were capitalists, and that was back in the 60's. Just because some capitalists did that, doesn't mean that all capitalists hate history. The reds hated our history even more and destroyed even more buildings.

What is "our history"? You aren't American and your family is not from the United States. I'm a 10th generation American, and it's not communists who destroyed our historic buildings, cities, and landscapes; capitalists did that all by themselves.

Check back with us in 50 years and let's see how well Moscow and St. Petersburg have held up to the Putin/Trump regime. If you are under the delusion that capitalist are going to put "history" before profit, you don't know anything about capitalism.


To be fair to every one else, Сталин, we should take this discussion outside the Forum.
The bombs missed the factories that were next to the cites, and hit the historic areas. WWII bombers had bad aim, and often missed a target by a few kilometers. That's why they needed so many bombers, to destroy one factory, or strategic point. With so many bombers/bombs, it is only logical, that the surrounding cities/towns would also be bombed. And during WWII, most people didn't travel on the "highway" to work, because cars were very expensive for most people. So factories were usually built right next to cities/towns, where the cities/towns could be "accidentally" bombed by bomber formations initially targeting the factories.

Yes I have seen those, and those are an extension of the current historical centers, which would have improved the historic buildings to meet modern standards.

Social and economic classes don't exist. That is a blatant myth.

A bomber isn't a gun. You can't compare a tank during a war, to a privately owned firearm during peacetime, that's ludicrous. That's like saying, "the M1A1 Abrams tank has killed people in the Middle East because of our government's intervention, therefore some privately owned hunting rifle owned by a farmer in Montana is just as evil!" Your statement simply proves an incompetence in proper reasoning skills.

Our history as in German history. I never claimed to be an American.

First of all, I'm not a capitalist, and I'm not glorifying capitalism.

And if you want to, where should we take this?
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 03:13 AM   #2165
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Your lineage does not necessarily give any more credence to your point of view than a new immigrant or a non American. I'm sure you agree.

That said, since the USA has never been a communist country, how could any of the development in the last 300+ years been by communists (or 150 years since communism was 'invented' in the mid 19 century)? But, the most leftist city in the nation, San Francisco, has had perhaps the most changed cityscape in all the US over the last 30 years. All with the encouragement of the hardcore left democrat party city government. The entire appearance and feel of the city is changed with great loss of classic structures. When it comes to real estate development, we usually have lots of people with various political labels with their hands on the money.
Good points all of which will be wasted on Urban Myth. He is still mourning the election and may not be completely rational as yet. In any event, like most of his ilk,he would rather make gross generalizations about capitalism while all the while thinking he is "open minded". In any event, I remember the mentality at the time when we in the U.S were destroying our history and it wasn't a left or right issue and it wasn't bald evil capitalism. People just thought new was better in the 50s, 60s and 70s. I daresay urban renewal was considered progressive at the time.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 03:36 AM   #2166
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Indeed, urban renewal was a progressive/leftist trait in nearly all post-war societies.
It was also enforced by the left in Germany, but also parts of the car-loving conservatives.


Btw, fabulous webcam comparisons JustinHerman, a million kudos to you!


From the global Berlin projects thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiff View Post
Stayed in Berlin for new year and took this picture of the Palace reconstruction from my 1st hotel room

20161228_095741 by Stephen Anstiss, on Flickr

And from Second hotel

20161229_132148 by Stephen Anstiss, on Flickr
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 09:17 AM   #2167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertwood View Post
Good points all of which will be wasted on Urban Myth. He is still mourning the election and may not be completely rational as yet. In any event, like most of his ilk,he would rather make gross generalizations about capitalism while all the while thinking he is "open minded". In any event, I remember the mentality at the time when we in the U.S were destroying our history and it wasn't a left or right issue and it wasn't bald evil capitalism. People just thought new was better in the 50s, 60s and 70s. I daresay urban renewal was considered progressive at the time.
Don't assume to know me. It makes you sound petty and dimwitted.

I'm not a liberal but I don't like gross generalizations, especially when they are blatantly ignorant. I also don't sit on a mountain of conceit and politicize architecture and urban design. I have opinions about style and design like anyone but, capitalism is no less innocent of crimes against architecture, landscapes, and urban fabric than communism.

To be clear, this started when I grew sick and tired of reading self-righteous blowhards inserting one-sided political commentary into these discussions. If past is prologue, maybe someone else should have stood up to these bitter loathsome people sooner instead of ignoring them.


In my opinion, the Berlin Palace SHOULD be rebuilt. So, should Dresden, Warsaw, etc., to replace what was destroyed. But, this is my OPINION. Would I prefer to see the clock turned back on the architecture lost? Hell yes. Since the first time I saw Berlin in 1970. And since the I first saw historic American neighborhoods destroyed to make room for freeways, parking lots, shopping centers and concrete cubes hermetically sealed from the outside world behind blank walls


I'd also rather see the Karstadt at Hermannplatz rebuilt to what it was in 1932 and the Columbiahaus and Schocken Department Stores rebuilt and not the "classic architecture" that was in their places before them. Would the conservatives approve? They hated these buildings then and would probably hate them today, and that's your right, but hate them because you don't like geometric, rectilinear design, not because of politics.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 05:43 PM   #2168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
Don't assume to know me. It makes you sound petty and dimwitted.

I'm not a liberal but I don't like gross generalizations, especially when they are blatantly ignorant. I also don't sit on a mountain of conceit and politicize architecture and urban design. I have opinions about style and design like anyone but, capitalism is no less innocent of crimes against architecture, landscapes, and urban fabric than communism.

To be clear, this started when I grew sick and tired of reading self-righteous blowhards inserting one-sided political commentary into these discussions. If past is prologue, maybe someone else should have stood up to these bitter loathsome people sooner instead of ignoring them.


In my opinion, the Berlin Palace SHOULD be rebuilt. So, should Dresden, Warsaw, etc., to replace what was destoryed. But, this is my OPINION. Would I prefer to see the clock turned back on the architecture lost? Hell yes. Since the first time I saw Berlin in 1970. And since the I first saw hsitoric American neighborhoods destroyed to make room for freeways, parking lots, shopping centers and concrete cubes hermetically sealed from the outside world behind blank walls


I'd also rather see the Karstadt at Hermannplatz rebuilt to what it was in 1932 and the Columbiahaus, Schocken Department Stores rebuilt and not was in their places before them. Would the conservatives approve? They hated these buildings then and would probably hate them today, and that's your right, but hate them because you don't like geometric, rectalinear design, not because of politics.
Unfortunately, when one posts their emotions, one tends to establish 'who they are' and we get a fairly good sense of knowing the personalities.

That said, to be fair, you did lay the blame on the loss of historic architecture on greedy capitalists. That gross generalization, especially in context of the USA's massive urban renewal programs created and executed by liberal, democrat governing bodies acting far more as socialists than as capitalists, started the push back and clarifications.

It's more reasonable and accurate to distribute blame across many individuals and institutions and for a ton of sometimes good, sometimes bad reasons. Now that Europe and America have enjoyed several decades of non destructive wars, the main point is to not let political power do as much damage and the bombs and bulldozers did.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 09:08 PM   #2169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Unfortunately, when one posts their emotions, one tends to establish 'who they are' and we get a fairly good sense of knowing the personalities.


______________________________________

If this conversation exorcises the notion that "guilt" for the destruction of our cities and ugly architecture is the exclusive purview of liberals, leftists, communists, etc. then this is good.

Politics, war, greed, ideology, etc., all have real impacts on our built and natural landscapes -- some of it awful and tragic -- and some of it is inspiring and improves the human condition. There's plenty of blame and credit to go around for both.

Erbse once said to me, "If it's for the purpose to support the discussion, that's okay. In the end it's an architecture forum that lives due to lively discussions."

It's obtuse to insist that all "urban renewal" originated from "liberal, democrat" governing bodies -- that ignores the conservative, Republican-controlled cities in New England and elsewhere who did the same; and is as obtuse as it is to insist that private sector, "capitalist", projects haven't also left us with some great projects / architecture / landscapes (i.e, in my humble opinion, thank goodness for New York's Rockefeller Center, Asheville's Biltmore Estate, or Travelers Tower in Hartford).

Are the Transamerica Building or Embarcadero Center in SF better than what they replaced? (I'm interested in your opinion about the architecture and impact on the fabric of the city.)


As it relates to this Thread -- I worry that more isn't been done to restore the historic urban fabric and scale of cities -- and that huge expanses of pedestrian-level space lacks articulation and human scale. I've seen both "classical" and "modern" architecture be guilty of this but not the Berlin Palace. The coarse grain of pre-war Berlin is what I believe is missing from some of the areas being restored adjacent to the Palace and that's less of a criticism of individual architecture than it is of urban design and landscape architecture (which is what I do).
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Old January 4th, 2017, 12:51 AM   #2170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
[I][B]

[I][B]What is "our history"? You aren't American and your family is not from the United States. I'm a 10th generation American, and it's not communists who destroyed our historic buildings, cities, and landscapes; capitalists did that all by themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
______________________________________

If this conversation exorcises the notion that "guilt" for the destruction of our cities and ugly architecture is the exclusive purview of liberals, leftists, communists, etc. then this is good.


Are the Transamerica Building or Embarcadero Center in SF better than what they replaced? (I'm interested in your opinion about the architecture and impact on the fabric of the city.)
This chat seems to have its roots in your claim that "capitalists destroyed our historic buildings...". The subsequent infusion of how progressive/leftist politics had its hands on the problem simply was a reaction. As stated early by myself and others, there are dirty hands everywhere. Seems that is what you may have meant in the first place, but didn't say so. Clear now.

Regarding the Embarcadero Center, it's appalling. Like a huge wall dividing the downtown into north/south sections, acting like a massive, impassible barrier. The TransAmerica building is nothing like the EC. Singular, small footprint, integrated well with neighboring, ground level structures and streets, and an iconic design. It removed only one block of worthy original buildings, whereas the EC wiped out over 5 blocks and created an eyesore at the east end.

Now let's get back to Berlin.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 03:04 AM   #2171
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Not to stir the pot, but in Germany it was the Communist government who tore down the Berlin Palace, the Garrison Church and the Kaiser Wilhelm memorial near the Berlin Palace because they hated their symbolism more than they appreciated their beauty or historic value. In Romania Ceaucescu tore down a lot of historic structures and as I recall, he was not a Capitalist.

As to you Urban Myth I deducted from your rants about capitalism and your RIP America 1789-2016 that you are politically left. Sorry for being so "petty" in my estimation of your views. I will only say if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
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Old January 6th, 2017, 11:56 AM   #2172
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How is this debate not over yet? Of course the Stadtschloss was torn down by the communists, as it was in East Berlin. Countless other remarkable buildings have been torn down elsewhere by capitalists, centrists, fascists, etc. This thread is neither the place for political ramblings, nor do I believe that architecture should be so heavily politicised. Also, please learn to understand the opponent's side. UrbanMyth respondet to a guy that claimed all heritage lost is due to communists/leftist, while being a populist right-winger himself if his avatar and signature are any indication. Responding to that with 'capitalists are hardly better' is not wrong and makes sure that uninformed people who might be reading this thread don't take what that russian guy said as fact.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 01:33 PM   #2173
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Please Stick to the Subject

Hey Fellows:

How about taking the political ramblings elsewhere. I thought that this forum was here to share information and discuss progress on the rebuilding of the Stadtschloss not to debate left and right political theories, propaganda, and myths.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 07:27 PM   #2174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Whalen 7 View Post
Hey Fellows:

How about taking the political ramblings elsewhere. I thought that this forum was here to share information and discuss progress on the rebuilding of the Stadtschloss not to debate left and right political theories, propaganda, and myths.
Your hostile and dismissive attitude disturbs the atmosphere and cause of this thread far more than an engaged discussion about topics relevant to the bigger context of the threads project.

If you are to lazy to scroll up to the last construction posts or are disappointment at having opened the thread without reward, then how about not letting your frustration out on unknown others in the form of rude outbursts.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #2175
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How is this debate not over yet? Of course the Stadtschloss was torn down by the communists, as it was in East Berlin. Countless other remarkable buildings have been torn down elsewhere by capitalists, centrists, fascists, etc. This thread is neither the place for political ramblings, nor do I believe that architecture should be so heavily politicised. Also, please learn to understand the opponent's side. UrbanMyth respondet to a guy that claimed all heritage lost is due to communists/leftist, while being a populist right-winger himself if his avatar and signature are any indication. Responding to that with 'capitalists are hardly better' is not wrong and makes sure that uninformed people who might be reading this thread don't take what that russian guy said as fact.
Appreciate the sentiment and attempt to be balanced....except, 'that russian guy' did not say what you said he said here.

Love your posts most of the time, but unless i'm missing something, you did a miss-quote here that misleads the uninformed.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 11:54 PM   #2176
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You're right, time has played with my memory, he didn't say that all heritage lost was due to communists. He was however still strongly political and he compared Berlins rather left senate to communists that killed the czars which is a vast exageration and huge political bait, which of course was taken. However I stand by my point that somebody mentioning that that was hugely one sided and only part of the story is generally a good thing. I just wish it wasn't on this thread and that it wouldn't have gotten to these dimensions.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 12:02 AM   #2177
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You're right, time has played with my memory, he didn't say that all heritage lost was due to communists. He was however still strongly political and he compared Berlins rather left senate to communists that killed the czars which is a vast exageration and huge political bait, which of course was taken. However I stand by my point that somebody mentioning that that was hugely one sided and only part of the story is generally a good thing. I just wish it wasn't on this thread and that it wouldn't have gotten to these dimensions.
Time, and other things, plays with all our memory's, indeed. Agree with everything you posted; balance and non exaggeration are key. If only the entire skyscrape forum had such characteristics. Vielen Dank!
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Old January 7th, 2017, 12:55 AM   #2178
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I hope that the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial can be rebuilt too. It was such a beautiful structure. And if rebuilt, it would compliment the current stadschloss very well. I'll post this here, because this stood right in front of the Stadschloss.



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Old January 7th, 2017, 02:14 PM   #2179
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The renders look pretty good. The fourth facade facing the river does nothing for it though . But I do have to ask if this is the best way that the money could be spent ? Like I know it's an important building , I understand why it was chosen for reconstruction but is it the best option. Personally I loved the palast de republik building , it was edgy , and made a statement . I mean , reconstructions are always a good thing in my book but I can't help but think of all the many boring commie blocks around Berlin that deserved the wrecking ball so much more than palast de republik , one of the more interesting commie buildings !
We could have reconstructed a decent sized section of Berlin old town with that 600 million + euro. How much did Frankfurt cost ? 180 million for 15 reconstructions and 25 other modernised former buildings ? With 600 million Euro you could build a 100 building strong part of Berlin old town instead of the stadtschloss ,

Anyway , I'm probably just being a bit overly negative . And maybe it's just my personal opinion that historic street fabrics not just standalone historic buildings are much important to a city. But the stadtschloss reconstruction is still good to see

Aldo I think the lack of kaiser Wilhelm memorial , the unrestored interior , and the solitary modern facade by the river seriously weaken the project as a whole . Like either go big or go home ! So much money is being spent on this already ..why not just go the full way and make it perfect
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Old January 7th, 2017, 02:47 PM   #2180
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Berlin's Palace facades (~90 million Euro) are reconstructed via donations. So the question "what if" should be asked differently there.

Berlin needed new space for the outer European collections and a new museum was planned anyway. So the 520 million+ EUR would have been spent on such a museum anyway, on the plus size we got it in the best location and with the reconstructed Schloss facade. That's the most we could have hoped for here!
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