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Old December 21st, 2017, 08:43 PM   #2421
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Thanks Tiaren for the informative background and for helping Suburbanist come to grips.
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Old December 22nd, 2017, 04:29 AM   #2422
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Germany was a democracy in Kaiser times. In fact, the same Political Parties that exist and run Germany today where running Germany before 1918. Germanys democratically and electoral system was bigger than the systems in GB or USA. I am not joking. Parts of the population not allowed to participate in the election in countries like the USA where allowed to do so in Germany. The USA had 27 groups that where not allowed to vote at that time. Germany had only 3 groups. The Kaiser was more like ceremonial like the Vice President today. When Russia, England and France declared war on Germany, (England and France had threatened to declare war before and England was bankrupt) the democratically elected Parliament in Germany responded in kind. The Kaiser was in his vacation in Norway, just coming from GB. (Because Germany bought all his Navy ships from England and so the German Navy men that he visited where trained in GB.)
During the war the Kaiser like the Parliament where replaced by a Military Management, like written in the constitution for such cases. After the war the Kaiser was replaced in part to his unhelpful England connection. The Political Parties running Germany today are the same ones as 1914.
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Old December 22nd, 2017, 02:09 PM   #2423
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please don't spew alternative facts. Thank you very much.
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Old December 22nd, 2017, 03:29 PM   #2424
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BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) - "Humboldt-Forum" | U/C

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please don't spew alternative facts. Thank you very much.


Hallo TM_Germany, what are the facts about the pre-WW1 German government?

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Old December 22nd, 2017, 03:35 PM   #2425
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Hereditary power or recognition is one of the worst features of European history.
How so? It is the essence of European high culture in all arts. It is what shaped the nations. The peoples. The reason the rest of the world modernized. It's an essential part of European history and the whole modern world is unthinkable without it. With all its lows and highs.
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Old December 22nd, 2017, 10:18 PM   #2426
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Hallo TM_Germany, what are the facts about the pre-WW1 German government?
It's not as bad as common perception makes it out to be.

Calling Imperial Germany a democracy is however wrong. The Reichstag's only major direct power was budgeting. That's an important tool but it's way off of making Germany at the time a democracy where the political agende is set by the people.

I don't know about how many "groups" were or were not allowed to vote but that's a very typical nonsensical argument for defending something that's not there. It might be that the U.S. excluded more groups people from the election process but that doesn't mean much, as the German democratic system didn't have all that much decision making power and as we don't know how big those "groups" were.

Claiming that the Kaiser was just ceremonial like a vice president is today is just utterly wrong. The Kaiser had a lot of powerful, direct tools at his disposal which especially Willy II. used all the time.

The Eagle's characterization of how the war declarations came to be is also wrong. Don't ask me for details but it certainly wasn't "oh they declared war on us! What a surprise! We have to do the same!"

Germany didn't buy all of its ships from England. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that almost all of them were built in Germany. I don't know about where they trained but I'd also be surprised if there were ever more than a token amount of German sailors in Britain.

I don't know about the Kaiser's whereabouts at the start of the war, so I can't comment on that.

I really have nothing against you Eagle, in fact I really, really admire your work. But it seems like you found quiete a bit of Kaiserzeit- romantics who liked to do "schönreden" as we say in Germany. Your last post has just too many errors and it takes away some of the credibility I feel you deserve.
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Old December 22nd, 2017, 11:08 PM   #2427
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How so? It is the essence of European high culture in all arts. It is what shaped the nations. The peoples. The reason the rest of the world modernized. It's an essential part of European history and the whole modern world is unthinkable without it. With all its lows and highs.
Slavery was also a part of the European history (though relatively minor in Germany), doesn't mean we should celebrate 6th generation descendants of French or British slave masters.
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 04:52 AM   #2428
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Slavery was also a part of the European history (though relatively minor in Germany), doesn't mean we should celebrate 6th generation descendants of French or British slave masters.




Right! And for me to believe it you must abort everything you use of those Slave masters! That is right! So close modern farming, food processing and storing, the health care, the fresh water plumbing and please shot off the electric grid! Please. It is all contaminated by coming from those horrible descendants of "Slave Masters". The same descendants that disapprove slavery.
(lol)
(What about Asian, African, Arab and South American Slave Masters? Are they better?)

And why is everyone so angry anyway? Every country and every time defines democracy different. We need to look both ways a love each other!
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 02:31 PM   #2429
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Right! And for me to believe it you must abort everything you use of those Slave masters! That is right! So close modern farming, food processing and storing, the health care, the fresh water plumbing and please shot off the electric grid! Please. It is all contaminated by coming from those horrible descendants of "Slave Masters". The same descendants that disapprove slavery.
(lol)
(What about Asian, African, Arab and South American Slave Masters? Are they better?)

And why is everyone so angry anyway? Every country and every time defines democracy different. We need to look both ways a love each other!
My point it that while it would be crazy to suggest descendants of old bad men bear any responsibility for the deeds of people dead 100, 300, 500 years ago, it also makes no sense to "pay historical respects" (as @keepthepast suggested) by inviting them for architectural opening of publicly funded civic buildings.
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 03:33 PM   #2430
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Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
It's not as bad as common perception makes it out to be.

Calling Imperial Germany a democracy is however wrong. The Reichstag's only major direct power was budgeting. That's an important tool but it's way off of making Germany at the time a democracy where the political agende is set by the people.

Yes, in those days Germany qualified as democratic. Keep in mind that every country had and still has different election systems. The electoral system in Italy today would be illegal in Germany today. But nice that you admit that "there was something there". One example from this thread: The Kaiser wanted his Schloss remodeled. The parliament said no. No money for that.

Quote:
I don't know about how many "groups" were or were not allowed to vote but that's a very typical nonsensical argument for defending something that's not there. It might be that the U.S. excluded more groups people from the election process but that doesn't mean much, as the German democratic system didn't have all that much decision making power and as we don't know how big those "groups" were.

This is an example of what I have meant. The US in 1914 had excluded 27 different groups like Catholics or women. Germany only three. Doesn't matter. Take Canada: The East cost celebrates being completely democratic since the 1760`s! But we have a Queen! Tell this an American and that poor guy can not stop laughing. And that is the point: The Political elite in Germany today does not want to be close to any political decisions made back than. Like "we are new we are innocent"


Quote:
Claiming that the Kaiser was just ceremonial like a vice president is today is just utterly wrong. The Kaiser had a lot of powerful, direct tools at his disposal which especially Willy II. used all the time.

Sounds like todays democrats. Sorry



Quote:
The Eagle's characterization of how the war declarations came to be is also wrong. Don't ask me for details but it certainly wasn't "oh they declared war on us! What a surprise! We have to do the same!"

You are right! In 1891, in Bismarck's retirement speech, the Parliament was warned of war. He warned that the British could and would send spies to turn the different ethnics in Austria/Hungary against one another. This did happen. Best example the 1920`s when Britain donated Germanys farmland and Breadbasket to the Polish dictator to help starve 3.6 Million people to death. Bismarck was right. In 1904, the British where caught responsible for the uprising of some locals in today Namibia. Also like to mention the written thread of "possible consequences with the help of Britain's forces" handed over by the British minister of war in 1910. Right in Berlin. Right to the Kaiser. Germany thought to solve the problem with just another Royal wedding. The British Parliament speeches from 1904 to 1910 tell everything. After 1910 all documents are under British Military wrap till today.
btw.: Between 1904 and 1910, The British Parliament was debating of a possible war in Europe and of how to win it, it would require France and Russia. Would be a waste to destroy one competition and face the next one! In 1904 the British decided to station military units in Belgium. The first soldier that died was British.



Quote:
Germany didn't buy all of its ships from England. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that almost all of them were built in Germany. I don't know about where they trained but I'd also be surprised if there were ever more than a token amount of German sailors in Britain.

Yes, Germany bought its colonies from the allies to prevent any bad feelings. That was completely new. Germany asked Britain in that very same meeting that it will need ships for the colonies. The British sold the first ships directly and later ships where build under license. My bad. I should have clarified that. British engineers delivered parts and blueprints. Traveled in between back and forth. But the ships where of the wrong type: One could load either ammunition or coal. With ammunition the ships could make it only to southern Norway and back! So Germany had an agreement that the British ports around the globe would supply the German vessels in need. The vessels also had sea rolling problems. They where designed for coastal protection.
The only thing new and German where the cannons. That is of why Britain was worried about the cannons. That is all you can hear about if you pay attention.
The British also trained all sailors. In fact it was the DDR in 1949 that opened the first Captains and upper ranges school located in a German speaking Country. The point is this: Britain used the German ships as an excuse of why it had declared war. Those ships where harmless. The British knew. They designed them!
But Britain admits declaring war. That was the point with the ships. I should have clarified that.



Quote:
I don't know about the Kaiser's whereabouts at the start of the war, so I can't comment on that.

I really have nothing against you Eagle, in fact I really, really admire your work. But it seems like you found quiete a bit of Kaiserzeit- romantics who liked to do "schönreden" as we say in Germany. Your last post has just too many errors and it takes away some of the credibility I feel you deserve.

No offence taken! I actually like it if we all work together here and work things out! Thank you for your knowledge! I am still learning every day! Of course I make mistakes. You are very welcome. But one question: If I am a Kaiser romantic and therefore not neutral, what about you? Would you be therefore a Kaiser critic and therefore not neutral either?

Last edited by The Eagle; December 23rd, 2017 at 03:44 PM.
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 04:25 PM   #2431
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
My point it that while it would be crazy to suggest descendants of old bad men bear any responsibility for the deeds of people dead 100, 300, 500 years ago, it also makes no sense to "pay historical respects" (as @keepthepast suggested) by inviting them for architectural opening of publicly funded civic buildings.
"old bad men" only further validates your confused, sexist, ageist, and ignorant view of history.

It would also help if you correctly quoted before lashing out; misquoting is like fake news. Respecting the historical record is not respecting individuals or individual actions of former times, unless specifically stated. And inclusion of descendants of historic figures at current events simply adds clarity and interest to the continuum of the historical process. You are free to wallow in centuries old anger and hate, but the rest of the world moves on with a greater sense of how past, present, and future interrelate in order to form a more calm and peaceful understanding of how to live.
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 04:52 PM   #2432
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Fact Versus Fiction

Eagle:

You would make a good fiction writer. I don't know where you are getting all of this stuff. Germany built all of the Imperial German Navy's ships in German shipyards. I can even supply the names of which ships and which yards if you so desire. There was no "responsible government" in Imperial Germany with the Kaiser alone deciding who should be chancellor and not the parties in the Reichstag. Neither did they "purchase" their colonies from the other European powers. Likewise, anti-Catholic laws in Britain ended in the 19th century and never existed in America. True, blacks were often excluded from the voting process in some states in America at the time of the first world war, but that was by no means a national law. Let's don't treat fiction as fact. Additionally, I think that we ought to stick to the subject of this forum, namely the new Berliner Schloss.
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 05:50 PM   #2433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
"old bad men" only further validates your confused, sexist, ageist, and ignorant view of history.

It would also help if you correctly quoted before lashing out; misquoting is like fake news. Respecting the historical record is not respecting individuals or individual actions of former times, unless specifically stated. And inclusion of descendants of historic figures at current events simply adds clarity and interest to the continuum of the historical process. You are free to wallow in centuries old anger and hate, but the rest of the world moves on with a greater sense of how past, present, and future interrelate in order to form a more calm and peaceful understanding of how to live.
I am applying the same standards I use to assess whether people living in Southern US with links to past confederacy/salve owners are racist or not. People are obviously not racist just because their great-grandparents owned slaves, acted to capture or prevent slaves from fleeing (pretty much anyone in law enforcement) etc.

However, if said people living today, who are completely innocent of the deeds of their ancestors, then decide on their own volition to raise a Confederate flag and claim it is not hate, just their heritage, then they invite themselves the "racist" label upon their own actions.

Same goes for descendants of old dead German emperors, British kings, Bolshevik revolutionary leaders, Nazi SS officers, Franco's falangists etc. People are individuals, but purposefully "reclaiming" links with dead ancestors in political/military symbols mean they associate themselves with the worst things of such ancestors.

Furthermore, and of utmost importance, the Humboldt forum is a public-financed project with taxes from German taxpayers. If this was a private construction project, then people could have it your way, but since it is a public project with public money, no such "honoring the descendants of emperors who once lived here" is warranted. The way you write gives the impression you are making this "historical connection" close to the ones achieved when they invited survivors of WW2 to the opening ceremonies of some of Berlin's monuments, which would be a very tricky analogy to take.
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 09:50 PM   #2434
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I am applying the same standards I use to assess whether people living in Southern US with links to past confederacy/salve owners are racist or not.
If your standards are incorrect, then applying them arbitrarily across the board is simply an exponential reflection of being wrong.

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However, if said people living today, who are completely innocent of the deeds of their ancestors, then decide on their own volition to raise a Confederate flag and claim it is not hate, just their heritage, then they invite themselves the "racist" label upon their own actions.
Nope. They would not be inviting anything. However, if you and others choose to stereotype and profile with negative attributes in spite of what you admit is may be true, then you are the bigots.

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Same goes for descendants of old dead German emperors, British kings, Bolshevik revolutionary leaders, Nazi SS officers, Franco's falangists etc. People are individuals, but purposefully "reclaiming" links with dead ancestors in political/military symbols mean they associate themselves with the worst things of such ancestors.

Furthermore, and of utmost importance, the Humboldt forum is a public-financed project with taxes from German taxpayers. If this was a private construction project, then people could have it your way, but since it is a public project with public money, no such "honoring the descendants of emperors who once lived here" is warranted. The way you write gives the impression you are making this "historical connection" close to the ones achieved when they invited survivors of WW2 to the opening ceremonies of some of Berlin's monuments, which would be a very tricky analogy to take.
No one referred to royal families "reclaiming" anything; you made that up. Once again, the point being made is historic, but it appears obvious you prefer historic cleansing rather than acknowledgment.
If the German taxpayers are so overwhelmingly opposed to the historic basis of the Stadtschloss and fear young Georg Friedrich rising up and taking over, then I'm sure they'll follow your advice and not allow him anywhere near.
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 11:18 PM   #2435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Story time: When I was at the hair dresser just a couple of months ago an elderly, elegant lady entered the salon and I noticed the owner immediately came running to her, which I thought was a bit peculiar. They are very professional and polite in this salon to every customer, but not quite to that extend. The staff acted almost subservient. Well, she was seated next to me and it turned out she was a "Gräfin von" (duchess) and she was addressed by everyone by that title.

His Royal Highness (people that aren't rude will formally address him like this) Georg Friedrich Ferdinand Prinz von Preußen (this is his official name)
The schloss itself is great but what you describe here is abhorrent. I think you would have to add me to the "extremely fckn rude" category

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
However, if said people living today, who are completely innocent of the deeds of their ancestors, then decide on their own volition to raise a Confederate flag and claim it is not hate, just their heritage, then they invite themselves the "racist" label upon their own actions.
There is nothing especially wrong about the confederate flag, mostly just a case of history written by the winners. At least you would have to acknowledge that the union jack for many people is a symbol of colonization, war, terror and theft.

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Old December 24th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #2436
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Don't waste your time on Suburbanist, it really is just that: a waste of time.


Merry Christmas everyone! And a great start for 2018, the year we'll be able to enjoy this wonderful view:


http://www.eldaco.net/images/project...ect-1/p1-2.jpg
http://www.eldaco.net/projekte/berliner-schloss/


https://berliner-schloss.de/neues-sc...umboldt-forum/


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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:26 PM   #2437
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And a Merry Christmas to you and everyone here! Hope you all had a great holiday.
In the US, it's been a joy to hear "Merry Christmas" widespread in public without embarrassment or shame for the first time in decades.

the completed view of the StadtSchloss will be a momentous occasion. We are blessed to be able to witness this great gift of beauty, culture, and history.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 09:30 PM   #2438
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Please keep your less-than-bright political dogma out of this discussion.
Not only can anyone that has ever been to the U.S. during christmas time attest to the fact that nobody ever was afraid to give christmas wishes to anyone in copious amounts, but you also do the Stadtschloss and historical reconstructions in general a huge disservice if you associate them with the political ideoligies represented by people like DJT and Sarah Palin, who in general are mentioned here in the same sentence as Putin, Erdogan or flat earthers, depending on the conversation. Regardless of political views, however, it is never a good idea to associate architecture with politics in any way ever because it is impossible to gain widespread acceptance that way.

That said, I hope you all had a "Frohes Fest" and soon "einen Guten Rutsch!"
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Old December 27th, 2017, 09:52 PM   #2439
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Please keep your less-than-bright political dogma out of this discussion.
Not only can anyone that has ever been to the U.S. during christmas time attest to the fact that nobody ever was afraid to give christmas wishes to anyone in copious amounts, but you also do the Stadtschloss and historical reconstructions in general a huge disservice if you associate them with the political ideoligies represented by people like DJT and Sarah Palin, who in general are mentioned here in the same sentence as Putin, Erdogan or flat earthers, depending on the conversation. Regardless of political views, however, it is never a good idea to associate architecture with politics in any way ever because it is impossible to gain widespread acceptance that way.

That said, I hope you all had a "Frohes Fest" and soon "einen Guten Rutsch!"
Thank you for your not unexpected, angry, and personally attacking comment. Merry Christmas to you, too!

Fact is, you are incorrect. "Merry Christmas" has largely been displaced by Happy Holidays all across the public arena in the US--retail, institutions, media, etc--because it is considered non-inclusive and inappropriately religious by those who have had to power to make the greeting politically incorrect. Many large retail establishments forbade employees from saying the phrase, even in response to it being delivered to them.
In spite of your wish to believe otherwise and castigate those who know, in the US, 'Merry Christmas' is significantly back in Christmas after a long hiatus.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 10:19 PM   #2440
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Don't waste your time on Suburbanist, it really is just that: a waste of time.


Merry Christmas everyone! And a great start for 2018, the year we'll be able to enjoy this wonderful view:


http://www.eldaco.net/images/project...ect-1/p1-2.jpg
http://www.eldaco.net/projekte/berliner-schloss/


https://berliner-schloss.de/neues-sc...umboldt-forum/


So is Karl Liebknecht Strasse to be pedestrianised as well?
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