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Old June 16th, 2013, 07:34 AM   #241
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Are they also going to construct smaller domes on the corner of main facade apart from main dome/copula because these are present in old pictures but not shown in the models?
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Old June 16th, 2013, 07:46 AM   #242
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Can't help but express my disappointment with this project. It looks gaudi, expensive, unnecessary, and really an anachronism.
Particularly disappointing considering that to many people throughout the world, Berlin is advertised as a mecca of innovation, modern culture, creativity etc.
From a cultural perspective, I expect such projects in places like Edrogan's Istanbul (the whole Ottoman palace turn into a mall) or Skopje (the whole 2014 thing), but seems particularly lame in Berlin. From an economic perspective, I also do not see much utility in this.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 07:52 AM   #243
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^
agree.

Would have rather seen some futuristic museum in neo-art-deco or so.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 12:55 PM   #244
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I don't see what's so uninnovative about it. You take an old castle and adapt it to modern needs. That's quite an innovative approach in my book. Besides, Berlin has sh*tloads of new architecture in plenty of other places. This spot right there, next to the Museum Island, the Dom, the Zeughaus, the (rebuilt) Kommandantur needs the castle as the focal point and icing on the cake.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
Berlin doesn't need reconstructions just good quality architecture.
WWII and the destructions that followed in the decades after have ripped the city of almost everything of architectural value. Compared to other European capitals, Berlin is an architectural desert.

Modernist archictects have been given free hand in developing Berlin according to their taste, and have failed miserably. Not only did they fail to give the city a new identity, they also continued the destructions of historic buildings, streets, and squares.

For Berlin, there is no other way than historical reconstruction of at least the most important monuments and buildings, including the reestablishment of the historic street grid instead of the vast empty spaces and city highways that are essentially anti-urban in nature.

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Can't help but express my disappointment with this project. It looks gaudi, expensive, unnecessary, and really an anachronism.
Particularly disappointing considering that to many people throughout the world, Berlin is advertised as a mecca of innovation, modern culture, creativity etc.
From a cultural perspective, I expect such projects in places like Edrogan's Istanbul (the whole Ottoman palace turn into a mall) or Skopje (the whole 2014 thing), but seems particularly lame in Berlin. From an economic perspective, I also do not see much utility in this.
The anachronism happened from 1941-1945 with the destruction of the city, removing all traces of seven centuries of history. It is a very strange thing for a city to be built completely in bland postwar architecture - that is why reconstructions are the only possible path for Berlin to follow.

Germany met a singular fate during WWII, with all major cities being destroyed to a degree previously unknown. Without reconstructions, many German cities would not have any identity anymore. For example, the city palaces in Munich, Stuttgart, Dresden and many, many other cities are reconstructions. They are important for the identity of people, and moreover, of high artistic quality that contemporary architects are just not capable of.

Berlin has had its share of failed architectural experiments, the whole city is full of hideous, failed projects that ripped the city of any urban context. The modernist architects had their chance - and failed miserably. Now it is time for reconstructions.

From an economic point of view, it also makes sense. Historic buildings have a much higher quality than modernist structures. Modernist architecture is often nothing more than throw-away architecture to be replaced after some decades. Often, it is overprized due to the arrogance of star architects, and very often, it comes with severe defects that are due to the lack of a real understanding for quality and artisanry. Thus, on the long term, historic reconstructions make sense economically. Moreover, still other effects come into play, e.g. the strengthening of local identity and the increase in attractiveness for business and tourists.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
I don't see what's so uninnovative about it. You take an old castle and adapt it to modern needs. That's quite an innovative approach in my book. Besides, Berlin has sh*tloads of new architecture in plenty of other places. This spot right there, next to the Museum Island, the Dom, the Zeughaus, the (rebuilt) Kommandantur needs the castle as the focal point and icing on the cake.
...

Totally agree!

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Originally Posted by mindmaker87 View Post
Are they also going to construct smaller domes on the corner of main facade apart from main dome/copula because these are present in old pictures but not shown in the models?
Depends on the donation I think, for now its they are not planed, but there is also no problem, to put them later on the top, maybe someone donate for them the next years.

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Originally Posted by thebackdoorman View Post
Can't help but express my disappointment with this project. It looks gaudi, expensive, unnecessary, and really an anachronism.
Particularly disappointing considering that to many people throughout the world, Berlin is advertised as a mecca of innovation, modern culture, creativity etc.
From a cultural perspective, I expect such projects in places like Edrogan's Istanbul (the whole Ottoman palace turn into a mall) or Skopje (the whole 2014 thing), but seems particularly lame in Berlin. From an economic perspective, I also do not see much utility in this.
Its an normal modern construction with an museum inside!

The rest, facade, cupola, etc. will be financed by donations!

So I see no problem, the reason for an historical facade is, that we are talking about the museums insel, and next to the Dome, etc. an modern building would look strange and it wouldnt do justice to this place!

So absolutely right decision in my opinion!
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Old June 16th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #247
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Ambrosius:
I just couldn't agree more. There's nothing needed more in Berlin than further reconstructions - also ripped-off facades of still standing buildings in particular (infamous "Entstuckung", widely a Berlin phenomenon).

Berlin suffered way too bad from modernist idiocy. One of the results of such was the Palace's predecessor, the insanely nondescript fugly GDR "Palace" of the Republic.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 05:44 PM   #248
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Ambrosius:
I just couldn't agree more. There's nothing needed more in Berlin than further reconstructions - also ripped-off facades of still standing buildings in particular (infamous "Entstuckung", widely a Berlin phenomenon).

Berlin suffered way too bad from modernist idiocy. One of the results of such was the Palace's predecessor, the insanely nondescript fugly GDR "Palace" of the Republic.
Thank you for your reply. I very much appreciate your many posts in both English and German in regard to the architecture of German cities.

Unfortunately it is a fact that historical architecture is rare in Berlin. Of course, there is still much of it due to the sheer size of the city, but it is diluted in a sea of trivial modern architecture. And many historic buildings that still exist have changed to the worse over time, due to the Entstuckung you mentioned, or a simplified reconstruction (as visible at the Berliner Dom vis-à-vis the Palace). As a consequence, there are many quarters in American cities (e.g. Philadelphia, Boston, NYC, Chicago...) that have more of a historic touch than central Berlin!

I might add that I am also okay with high-quality modern architecture. However, modern architecture often just produces spectacular individual buildings, but no urban context. And even more often, modern architecture is just low quality, with no aesthetic value at all.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 07:02 PM   #249
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today was the day of the open construction area, i missed it... :/

here some nice pics from Palantir.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 07:21 PM   #250
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Can't help but express my disappointment with this project. It looks gaudi, expensive, unnecessary, and really an anachronism.
Particularly disappointing considering that to many people throughout the world, Berlin is advertised as a mecca of innovation, modern culture, creativity etc.
From a cultural perspective, I expect such projects in places like Edrogan's Istanbul (the whole Ottoman palace turn into a mall) or Skopje (the whole 2014 thing), but seems particularly lame in Berlin. From an economic perspective, I also do not see much utility in this.
Restoring a building that is in bad shape is something.

Trying to bring something out of the past is fake, cheesy. It is like the madness that resulted on the fake-medieval Scholss Neuschwanstein in the Alps, for instance.

Doing things on a kitsch manner is not necessarily a problem, Las Vegas does it all the time. The problem it try to pretend that rebuilding something that was destroyed long ago could be anything but misrepresenting history somehow.

They should have built something new, completely futuristic, that would stick out in the middle of a green lawn. Some form-defying building. It would fit much better the "brand" that Berlin likes to put out with.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #251
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I agree that the reconstruction will restore some of Berlin's historical beauty. Still, it is sad and pathetic that we are reconstructing buildings from the past. We live in a different (better) country today, these buildings stand for something that doesn't exist anymore. It would be so much better if we could build something new, which represents what we are today but looks equally good. I hope we get back to being able to do that.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 07:50 PM   #252
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I'd rather see this empty place between the Dom and Marstall, than ANOTHER modernist building on its location. Schloßplatz doesn't need to be another architects' playground, they already have Lepiziger Platz.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The problem it try to pretend that rebuilding something that was destroyed long ago can misrepresent history somehow.
Don¡t worry. I'm pretty sure the Dominikanerkloster will remain in history books only.

Most people forget that it won't be a palace anymore. While the exteriors will resemble at some point the old Stadtschloss, almost everything inside will be modern.

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Originally Posted by GFM 3D View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
(...) The new building will contain the following:

* Quality Shops (probably more at the higher end of the market, which is quite fitting for a building of this design
* Restaurants
* A museum
* A Business Center
* Rooms for corporate "special events" and functions

(source: welt.de)
Quote:
We live in a different (better) country today, these buildings stand for something that doesn't exist anymore
Please tell me if I'm wrong, but there is no throne hall to be built, is it?

Last edited by GFM 3D; June 16th, 2013 at 07:56 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 09:01 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Autostädter View Post
I agree that the reconstruction will restore some of Berlin's historical beauty. Still, it is sad and pathetic that we are reconstructing buildings from the past. We live in a different (better) country today, these buildings stand for something that doesn't exist anymore. It would be so much better if we could build something new, which represents what we are today but looks equally good. I hope we get back to being able to do that.
I agree that politically and economically, we live in much better times than when these historic buildings were erected. Aesthetically, however, the case is different - modern architecture, especially as conceived in Germany, is inferior to historic architecture. Just have a look on the nearby Bundeskanzleramt - a brutal, tasteless and hideous structure that required renovation very few years after it had been built. It is a shame that foreign dignitaries have to be received in such an oversized concrete shed.

Architects and city planners in Germany were busy during the whole second half of the 20th century to "build something new, which represents what we are today but looks equally good", as you say - but they failed miserably. Just look at your home town of Hanover, which is a boring, hideous city that has lost its identity due to WWII destructions and the delusion of building a modern, car-friendly city.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 09:08 PM   #254
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Restoring a building that is in bad shape is something.

Trying to bring something out of the past is fake, cheesy. It is like the madness that resulted on the fake-medieval Scholss Neuschwanstein in the Alps, for instance.

Neuschwanstein was build in 1886. 1886 was not time for castles, however is the most famous and marvelous castle in the world.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 10:08 PM   #255
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Neuschwanstein was build in 1886. 1886 was not time for castles, however is the most famous and marvelous castle in the world.
I know it. And that is the point: Neuscwanstein is the father of all kitsch buildings. But at least it was a greenfield construction in the middle of alpine farmland. Something that Las Vegas took it on steroids 60 years later...

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I'd rather see this empty place between the Dom and Marstall, than ANOTHER modernist building on its location. Schloßplatz doesn't need to be another architects' playground, they already have Lepiziger Platz.
I'm not suggesting a modernist commieblock of something that reminds us of the 1960s, but maybe a thing new. Aren't they developing some new materials (especial ultra-resistant carbon composites) that could be used to create a signature low-rise (4-5 story) there?

Quote:
Most people forget that it won't be a palace anymore. While the exteriors will resemble at some point the old Stadtschloss, almost everything inside will be modern.
Which is why such projects are " hypocritical architecture" and kitsch. This is the pure definition of something superficial, made to look on the exterior as some scene that people from Otto von Bismarck times could recognize, even if we're way past that time already and, importantly, the building had been completely destroyed by War and its aftermath (so it is not like preserving the Colosseum or other ruins either).

If the interior of the building is going to me modern, why do architects need to bury their hands in the sand and act as if the exterior should look like a representation of a gone past?

What if, for instance, they had built much bigger Humboldt box there instead?
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Old June 16th, 2013, 10:14 PM   #256
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oh my...
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Old June 16th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #257
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I know it. And that is the point: Neuscwanstein is the father of all kitsch buildings. But at least it was a greenfield construction in the middle of alpine farmland. Something that Las Vegas took it on steroids 60 years later...
It was a typical expression of 19th century romanticism. Neuschwanstein was an extreme, but certainly not the only example of such feelings. The Palace of Westminster also evokes an ideal medieval past by its Gothic style. Nevertheless, I am clearly convinced that these buildings cannot be compared to contemporary Las Vegas or Disneyland buildings; they are vastly superior in artisanal quality and intellectual design.

Authentic historic reconstructions, however, are something completely different from Neuschwanstein or the Palace of Westminster. They rely on the fact that the reconstructed buildings actually existed at these places in a well-known form for a long time and are closely linked to the culture and history of a certain city or region. The unnatural thing was that these buildings were destroyed, not that they are now being reconstructed.

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Which is why such projects are " hypocritical architecture" and kitsch. This is the pure definition of something superficial, made to look on the exterior as some scene that people from Otto von Bismarck times could recognize, even if we're way past that time already and, importantly, the building had been completely destroyed by War and its aftermath (so it is not like preserving the Colosseum or other ruins either).
The reconstruction as it is happening now is a compromise. For people like me, it is only an emergency solution that hopefully will be replaced by a fully authentic reconstruction. Many Germans still suffer from a guilt complex that they try to alleviate by modernist ideology. In order to show the world that Germany by rebuilding the palace does not want to reanimate Frederick's or William's policy, the architecture has to be broken, to be contrasted by modern means. This ideological, politically correct attitude is also the reason why the Humboldt Forum is going to be the home for non-European art.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 11:36 PM   #258
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The "Abendschau" by the Berlin-Brandenburg-TV reports from the open day, here the video.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 01:47 AM   #259
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Which is why such projects are " hypocritical architecture" and kitsch. This is the pure definition of something superficial, made to look on the exterior as some scene that people from Otto von Bismarck times could recognize, even if we're way past that time already and, importantly, the building had been completely destroyed by War and its aftermath (so it is not like preserving the Colosseum or other ruins either).

If the interior of the building is going to me modern, why do architects need to bury their hands in the sand and act as if the exterior should look like a representation of a gone past?
It's interesting to see how the same arguments are used by people that oppose a full reconstruction. And it's interesting to see how you didn't reply to that comment about Hanover.

Aestethics. What they're doing is an attempt to restore at least part of the historic cityscape of Berlin-Mitte that was lost during and after WW2.

BTW, the palace wasn't "completely destroyed" in the war. It was destroyed by the Communist years later, just like half of Mitte.

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I'm not suggesting a modernist commieblock of something that reminds us of the 1960s.

What if, for instance, they had built much bigger Humboldt box there instead?
I know. But it's just the same. It's just like attempting to create a sound mass passage in the middle of a perfect classical sonata, or as part of a Bach fugue. It's inadmissible.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #260
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@Ambrosius: I agree with you. What I meant is that it's a shame that we can't design anything adequate. We have to copy a past generation's work.
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