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Old August 21st, 2013, 09:10 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.
Commies built some great monuments and skyscraper and there is no reason to demolish them. Much of Berlin was built by aggresive, authoritarian regimes. We don't need to tear down the town to show that communism was wrong.

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any Nazi symbol, significant monument, street name/plaque was removed, and so should communist stuff from Berlin. .
Bull...t

[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdWoLvcleMyEmRqo3RunIjetmxcn7UWjulIbuXti1afWtytnqb[/IMG]



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Old August 21st, 2013, 09:54 PM   #362
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Sorry for a huge off-topic, but is there a thread, where I can find some photos from the construction site of the new U5 station near the City Palace? I'm also interested in other new U-Bahn stations under construction in Berlin.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 10:05 PM   #363
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Sorry for a huge off-topic, but is there a thread, where I can find some photos from the construction site of the new U5 station near the City Palace? I'm also interested in other new U-Bahn stations under construction in Berlin.
Yes, the BERLIN Urban Transportation Thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=546743
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Old August 21st, 2013, 10:48 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.

It is a pity that they haven't been so aggressive in removing communist-related architecture. They should have taken the same approach they took after WW2 in West Germany: any Nazi symbol, significant monument, street name/plaque was removed, and so should communist stuff from Berlin.

If Berlin weren't in some deep financial trouble, I'd even say they should build a new (taller - 500m high) observation/TV tower, and tear down the one that currently exists there. It is also bothersome that some Soviet-era monuments remain, such as the one in Treptow Park.


What kind of argumentation is that? Should they tear down the Arc de Triomphe because it was commissioned by Napoleon?

Communism is a (troublesome) part of Germany's history. No reason to try and wipe it out.

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Originally Posted by GFM 3D View Post
I invite you to go to the construction site, there is(was) a plaque displaying the old floor plan. I even used it as a reference for my 3D model. I think it was posted here before.

Anyway, there is this survey I made some time ago in my blog. Most people stated they agreed with the palace being rebuilt.
I was refering to the already finished building mentioned a few posts above mine.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 12:25 AM   #365
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Why should someone should remove everything troublesome of your own history?! I think that is a very immature approach. You don't necessary praise the ideas behind a past regime, by keeping structures of that era. In fact, the purpose of history is to inform people about events/mistakes of the past, so society can learn from them.

There was a graffiti on a remaining wall of the former Palace of the Republic.
I think, it fits very well to the discussion right now:


"The GDR Never Existed!"

Source and article: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/...nguage=english
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 12:34 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.
Why not re-write history books and get rid of everything uncomfortable?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:16 AM   #367
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^ You are insinuating that does not already occur today? Germany is one of the few countries that have (had to) come to terms with their history, other countries including mine (Canada) sweeps its historical dirt conveniently under the rug.

Getting back on topic, I dont think the issue is that people want to erase the fact that the DDR existed. The more overwhelming forces behind the destruction of DDR buildings are market driven, not political. DDR buildings were for the most part, ugly, quickly thrown up and riddled with asbestos. They were constructed during a time when the country was destroyed and large amounts of infrastructure and housing had to be build. They were prefabricated functional masterpieces, with little aesthetics taken into consideration.

After reunification people can decide where they want to live, people take pride in their home with private ownership. Investment floods in and people have a longing for their city to return to a beautiful jewel, not a concrete wasteland. The market demands traditional beauty and/or modern design, not DDR nostalgia.

DDR architecture is sentimental, and does have a place in history, but there is no way it can compete with architectural masterpieces like the Stadtschloss for its beauty and pride. How many tourists send home pictures of DDR architecture (The Fernsehturm is an exception which could be considered Swedish).

I can appreciate the history, but have no problem with DDR slabs being torn down. If you dont agree, then I assume you would rather drive a Trabant, than a BMW.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:59 AM   #368
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Why not re-write history books and get rid of everything uncomfortable?
I'm all in favor of extensive scholarly historical research. I just don't want the physical evidence of communism, specifically, to remain in Germany (or Europe). Recently I was visiting a tall hydro power dam on the Harz area, and I noticed some symbols and plaques commemorating the completion of works in 1965. This is the kind of stuff that should be removed (the plaques, not the dam).

I'm not saying all commieblockes of K÷penick and Hohensch÷nhausen should be torn down! But to the extent that it is possible, anything that reminds the commies on those buildingsshould be erased physically. I noticed that some of these flats still have some inscriptions alluring to SPD, some S-Bahn stations have plaques alluring or to the people who built it, and all of that should be removed.

Whatever is left from communism should be there just to remember how miserable and inherently evil was the communist regime. Isn't this how they do with Nazi places? This is why I think they should get rid of more stuff at Alexanderplatz, since it was the core of East Berlin, and build something entirely new with 21st Century looks and aesthetics.

Do we really want to keep marks on concrete commemorating "the achievement of the new German people to provide house for the workers of the Socialist Republic"? Shouldn't they (SPD-era officers, neighborhood political commissars, chief engineers etC) all be forgotten as the thugs they were under the socialist regime? There are still millions (some 6 millions indeed) of living German citizens that were greatly oppressed by the commies taking orders from Moscow, many of them retirees living in Berlin still.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 03:29 AM   #369
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Where do you draw the line? Some buildings from DDR are fine but others are not? How do we decide? Why stop at Communism? Why not eradicate medieval monuments and the imperialist ones? Whether you like it or not it all is part of history.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:41 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by durden5573 View Post
DDR architecture is sentimental, and does have a place in history, but there is no way it can compete with architectural masterpieces like the Stadtschloss for its beauty and pride. How many tourists send home pictures of DDR architecture (The Fernsehturm is an exception which could be considered Swedish).
That's exactly the point: they are not rebuilding the Stadtschloss. They are building a hollow shell that looks like the castle. Where's the architectural value in that? Why not build something that would really add something to Berlin instead of faking an old building? It's not like a fire raged through it and they're fixing it up. There hasn't been a castle there for 50 years. Hardly anyone has seen it as it was, so why make a theme park version of it? I don't get it at all...

And a lot of people send home pictures of DDR monuments, they're the most interesting part of the city. There are buildings like the Dom, the museum island, the Brandenburg gate, etc in literally every capital in Western Europe. There isn't a single Western European capital that has communist monuments.

Quote:
I can appreciate the history, but have no problem with DDR slabs being torn down. If you dont agree, then I assume you would rather drive a Trabant, than a BMW.
That's a bit of a silly quote. It's not like all communist buildings are crap and it's certainly not like all new buildings are better because they are new. 50 % of new apartment blocks are just as ugly imo.

By the way, my dad used to drive a Lada, it was the sturdiest and most trustworthy car we ever had (even though people made fun of it )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I'm all in favor of extensive scholarly historical research. I just don't want the physical evidence of communism, specifically, to remain in Germany (or Europe). Recently I was visiting a tall hydro power dam on the Harz area, and I noticed some symbols and plaques commemorating the completion of works in 1965. This is the kind of stuff that should be removed (the plaques, not the dam).

Whatever is left from communism should be there just to remember how miserable and inherently evil was the communist regime. Isn't this how they do with Nazi places? This is why I think they should get rid of more stuff at Alexanderplatz, since it was the core of East Berlin, and build something entirely new with 21st Century looks and aesthetics.

Do we really want to keep marks on concrete commemorating "the achievement of the new German people to provide house for the workers of the Socialist Republic"? Shouldn't they (SPD-era officers, neighborhood political commissars, chief engineers etC) all be forgotten as the thugs they were under the socialist regime? There are still millions (some 6 millions indeed) of living German citizens that were greatly oppressed by the commies taking orders from Moscow, many of them retirees living in Berlin still.
Again, why limit yourself to the Communists? You really think the Stadsschloss was build by a democratic ruler? Virtually every building in Europe has blood on it.

People now may find the Treptow monument (for example) uncomfortable, but in 50 years, it will just be another interesting relic from a difficult time.

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Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:55 AM   #371
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Lada (the auto marquee ) user spotted!
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:53 AM   #372
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I'm all in favor of extensive scholarly historical research.
And this is why you confuse SPD with SED?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 05:39 PM   #373
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"Adaptive Reuse"

It sounds like some of you need to learn the term "Adaptive Reuse." This means that you take either an existing building or rebuild one where the exterior remains the same as is has been for a long time while the interior is either rebuilt or remodeled to meet current needs and usage. In point of fact that is what they are doing with the Stadtschloss site. To me, it is ridiculous to build an ultramodern building side by side with buildings that date from an earlier era. They just look out of place. I believe that, from the designs that I have seen, the Humboldt Forum successfully combines both new and old.

Without adaptive reuse we would not have reconstructions such as those in the core of Danzig / Gdansk, Warsaw, Dresden, or other cities that were badly damaged and/or destroyed in World War II or to satisfy Communist ideology. Other examples of adaptive reuse in Berlin might also include the Bunderat building and the Finance Ministry which were rebuilt and reused from their before World War II uses.

Of course, as someone else here has said, I too respect your right to your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:24 PM   #374
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And a lot of people send home pictures of DDR monuments, they're the most interesting part of the city.
I was referring to DDR architecture and buildings, not monuments. I agree monuments are an important reminder of the past. I love old DDR/Commie monuments, very imposing and stark. The mural on the side of Dresden's Kulturpalast is one of my favorites (although the building itself is hideous).

The Stadtschloss is obviously controversial, and I dont want to turn this thread into a political debate, but I will tip my hat to those Berliners that were brave enough to get behind and support the rebuilding of something very special. I dont think its a big deal that it isnt 'original', the paradox of theseus has been debated since the 1st century, the true test is the feeling you get walking down Unter Den Linden and setting your eyes on a masterpiece, all politics aside.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 04:06 AM   #375
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Update:

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So, hier ein paar Baustellenbilder von mir von letzter Woche. Aufgenommen vom Dach der Humboldt-Box.

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/5755147...7626797071830/

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/5755147...7626797071830/

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/5755147...7626797071830/

Beispielfassade.
image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/5755147...7626797071830/
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 08:51 PM   #376
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What is this piece of facade?
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 09:00 PM   #377
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I don't know. it looks like the upper half of the fašade, since the building had four levels. I guess they'll move it later.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 11:08 PM   #378
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Quote:
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That's exactly the point: they are not rebuilding the Stadtschloss. They are building a hollow shell that looks like the castle. Where's the architectural value in that? Why not build something that would really add something to Berlin instead of faking an old building? It's not like a fire raged through it and they're fixing it up. There hasn't been a castle there for 50 years. Hardly anyone has seen it as it was, so why make a theme park version of it? I don't get it at all...
I don't get this. Photography has existed for nearly 200 years now and as far as I've seen the Stadtschloss has been fairly well photographed? It's not like they're remaking it from oral legend.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 07:21 PM   #379
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Facade Explanation

The piece of facade in the photograph is an example of what the exterior of the Stadtschloss / Humboldtform will look like upon completion. It is a reconstruction of what the facade looked like prior to World War II. I believe that it was erected by the group that was advocating reconstruction of the building in its pre-war state complete with the palace interiors.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 02:20 AM   #380
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.... red marked piece is the example-fassade....

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