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Old July 3rd, 2015, 04:42 PM   #1341
Gadjowsky
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I don't think the populism of the politicians is comparable. Macedonian politicians want to create national identity and recreate history, whereas German politicians are just restoring the very symbol of the capital, its palace, which was destroyed in an unnecesary war.
Well, we had an unnecessary earthquake in 1963, after that the town was rebuilt by the communist government. Macedonian politicians do not want to create anything, they want to erase everything that was created in the period of the rule of the people that actually WON this unnecessary war that you are talking about.
People substitute the simplicity of modernism with the architecture that was created in the period of the communist rule in eastern Europe after the ww2 and that is often misused by today politicians. They are on the same course here...in this building. This one is a missed opportunity...for me at least.
I won't be discussing politics anymore if you don't mind, thank you!
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 06:03 PM   #1342
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Comparing the reconstruction effort of the Berlin City Palace with Skopje 2014 is outrageous. Also lumping together the political reasoning behind these two Projects is insulting.
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 06:53 PM   #1343
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Well, we had an unnecessary earthquake in 1963, after that the town was rebuilt by the communist government. Macedonian politicians do not want to create anything, they want to erase everything that was created in the period of the rule of the people that actually WON this unnecessary war that you are talking about.
People substitute the simplicity of modernism with the architecture that was created in the period of the communist rule in eastern Europe after the ww2 and that is often misused by today politicians. They are on the same course here...in this building. This one is a missed opportunity...for me at least.
I won't be discussing politics anymore if you don't mind, thank you!
I am not the one that started this discussion, but OK...

If this is a missed opportunity, then what should've they built on that site according to you? I don't think there is a demand for office space in Berlin and many of residential buildings still have to be renovated.
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 07:44 PM   #1344
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If this is a missed opportunity, then what should've they built on that site according to you? I don't think there is a demand for office space in Berlin and many of residential buildings still have to be renovated.
I have no idea whether there's a demand for office space or else, that's for the planners and the town authorities to decide. My point was that the architecture should represent it's time. This is pure anachronism and it doesn't belong to the time that we live in. I am sure that there are no living people (or very few) that remember the old complex. The people that right now live in Berlin could have given their own mark in Berlin's history with something fresh and new.
To be clear, I am against retro-styles, not the authentic old architecture, but this type of nostalgic architecture - the old outer shell, different program inside.
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 08:23 PM   #1345
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some high summer pics

Marienchurch and cupola of palace.







Lustgarten - Altes Museum



Lustgarten - view city palace



Lustgarten with Dom and Palace



Dom and Altes Museum



my own pics, ©Ludi
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 08:32 PM   #1346
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"Architecture should represent its time?" I agree, it should. And for thousands of years, it did, following classical principals. And suddenly, architects turned their back on classicism 70 or so years ago and struck off on a new road, with predictably questionable results. We now live in a world that sees sublimity in square holes punched into simple unadorned concrete boxes.

Thank God for post-modern architecture! There is great architecture being produced again all over the world, which represents its time (modern Asian skyscrapers come immediately to mind) but which also follows classical principals. Alas, structures such as the overly simple eastern façade being tacked onto Berlin City Palace are still being built. With structures such as this, there is no architect's signature. Rather, it looks as though it were hastily designed by some faceless committee for some temporary purpose, with cost being the over-riding factor.
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 09:01 PM   #1347
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My point was that the architecture should represent it's time.
Some of the worlds most famous and revered buildings wouldn't exist then.
Big Ben/Houses of Parliament wouldn't exist. Gothic style was long gone... Arc de Triomphe in Paris or the Capitol in Washington DC wouldn't exist, because their architecture goes even further back in time.
Staying with the City Palace, nearly all the historic buildings surrounding it today should not be allowed to exist then. The Cathedral is neobaroque, the Royal Stables also, the Museum Island is neoclassical, as is Palace Bridge, the Bauakademie is neorenaissance and so on...
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 09:06 PM   #1348
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Why should leaving a contemporary mark be important to Berliners? It doesn't matter when was it built, but who built it. In this topic, the Berliners are the ones who built it. Our generation doesn't need to care for leaving an architectural mark (even though it's not something bad when done in a right place). We should care for our CULTURE to leave a mark in architecture. German culture gave us this palace, British culture gave us St. Paul's Cathedral, Croatian culture gave us Dubrovnik etc. It is important that our nation left something to this world, something it's proud of. And after all, those famous buildings still require renovations, sanations, so we are still leaving our mark on them by keeping them as they were when they were built. And it is absolutely important for a culture to have something which will represent it in this globalising world.
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 09:09 PM   #1349
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Off topic, why was erbse banned?
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Old July 3rd, 2015, 10:55 PM   #1350
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Croatian culture gave us Dubrovnik etc. It is important that our nation left something to this world, something it's proud of.
I see where you are going...

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Some of the worlds most famous and revered buildings wouldn't exist then.
Big Ben/Houses of Parliament wouldn't exist. Gothic style was long gone... Arc de Triomphe in Paris or the Capitol in Washington DC wouldn't exist, because their architecture goes even further back in time.
Staying with the City Palace, nearly all the historic buildings surrounding it today should not be allowed to exist then. The Cathedral is neobaroque, the Royal Stables also, the Museum Island is neoclassical, as is Palace Bridge, the Bauakademie is neorenaissance and so on...
Sorry to disappoint you, but these buildings have no (or very small) real architectural significance, historical maybe, tourist attractions also, but they brought nothing new in concept, form, construction or any other architectural aspect. As a matter of fact, this building that we discuss about is left out of any significant book dedicated to architectural history and evolution. It may be a symbol of the german power or unity at the time, the Capitol may represent how strong and powerful US are, but in architectural sense, that doesn't mean s**t. Sorry! Germany today represents a highly technically developed society, ecologically aware...this means turning back, unnecessary!

De gustibus non est disputandum. I would add - Tastes between architects and non-architects regarding architectural value differ a lot and shouldn't be discussed at all.
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Old July 4th, 2015, 01:11 AM   #1351
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How can you even compare Skopje and Berlin?! Berlin is RECONSTRUCTING a palace which was there for 400 years. Skopje is making some mish-mash buildings of questionable quality. Also, it's obvious why Berlin will never be Paris. It's full of cheap, postwar architecture which doesn't have a sense for beauty and surroundings. Even the recent developments like Potsdamer Platz are not something special or noticeable. Berlin had a major opportunity to become a capital of modernity, but it unbelievably failed on a massive scale. So yes, it is a model of modernist architecture but I don't think it is a good thing because those buildings are not really that special and world-renowned.

P.S. I am not a hater of contemporary architecture. I like glassy buildings, but only if they are not destroying historical neighbourhoods, if they are not built on a place of an old beauty and if they are not plain and boring.
I thought some of these looked relatively nice,

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8056/8...d176dfbc_b.jpg

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townn...343f.image.jpg

http://english.republika.mk/wp-conte...ii-740x496.jpg

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/file.../idejno1-1.jpg
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Old July 4th, 2015, 02:28 AM   #1352
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I see where you are going...

Sorry to disappoint you, but these buildings have no (or very small) real architectural significance, historical maybe, tourist attractions also, but they brought nothing new in concept, form, construction or any other architectural aspect. As a matter of fact, this building that we discuss about is left out of any significant book dedicated to architectural history and evolution. It may be a symbol of the german power or unity at the time, the Capitol may represent how strong and powerful US are, but in architectural sense, that doesn't mean s**t. Sorry! Germany today represents a highly technically developed society, ecologically aware...this means turning back, unnecessary!

De gustibus non est disputandum. I would add - Tastes between architects and non-architects regarding architectural value differ a lot and shouldn't be discussed at all.


Where am I exactly going, if you can explain to me?

Well, then how is an architectual significance determined if those buildings are not special and significant?! If I ever build the ugliest building in the world, should it be protected and praised for its ugliness, or should it, rationally, be demolished? Also, architects' taste CAN'T be different than that of non-architects because, at the end of the day, architects are designing those buildings for other people, majority of which are not architects, and not for their enormous ego.
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Old July 4th, 2015, 09:35 AM   #1353
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You can't win with some people. If the wall is made of Brick they say, "not environmentally friendly enough" if you make the wall with insulation in the middle and therefore cut the thickness with concrete, they say" not original enough!" ?????

Berlin has the "Kanzleramt" witch has a brand new design, next to other government buildings. Having build new all the time it was time to rebuild something. Keep in mind, this is only the "second"!!! reconstruction in Berlin.

I also like to point out that this building has no political meaning.
Also I like to point out that it should fit to it's surroundings. The next step is the money.
This reconstruction saves the taxpayers a huge amount of money.
The original plan was to add the "missing" museum in the suburbs and the event space somewhere downtown. The idea came up to recycle the old space of the castle to save on roads, water works, and so on. The next idea was to build a glass block.
For safety, but more the problem about the rays from the sun, would destroy the collections.
The air condition was also expansive included the hiding of all technical support. The flat roof increases the heating in winter by 18% plus the leakage problem witch occurred in every, every new flat roof government building in Berlin. Other problems where the thread of power outage during fire for example. Anyway, the next step was a box made of stone.

That was not accepted by anyone. Concrete box in downtown! Not again! Well Berlin has actually 3-5 downtown areas, but never mind. That was when the idea of reconstructing gained big time. Also, the materials can not come from far away, meaning the money stays locally. The government has a usage for the building that saves money.[Not some old build in desperate need of usage] As well as the "saving" for the facade, too.[Donations] Evan the timing saves money, because the underground train line is respected in the construction.

The only question I have down to Macedonia is this: If every building is supposed to be new, hip, exceeding, how is this supposed to work? There are 500 new buildings under construction or in planning in Berlin alone. We need "fillers" So, if you don't like this, look at it as a filler. Look instead to the other state of the art buildings that being build right now. I recommend for you to look for " Band des Bundes "
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Old July 4th, 2015, 11:50 AM   #1354
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my own pics
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Old July 4th, 2015, 12:49 PM   #1355
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Its not Croatian culture that gave us Dubrovnik. That city is NOW in Croatia, so, please, take care about past...
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Old July 4th, 2015, 10:33 PM   #1356
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Its not Croatian culture that gave us Dubrovnik. That city is NOW in Croatia, so, please, take care about past...
Technically, this palace is Prussian, but we all think of it as a majestic example of baroque in Germany. I don't know why you didn't complain about that.

I probably misused the word CULTURE, and I apologise for that. But I find it rather funny that only the members from ex-Yugoslavian countries complained about it.

Back to topic, what happened to the two smaller domes which were on the same side as the big one? They are shown in some renders on the first page, but they weren't included in the project. Were they scrapped for financial reasons or what?
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Old July 4th, 2015, 11:16 PM   #1357
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I thought some of these looked relatively nice,
You do not want to see this yourself, trust me. The pictures fool you...

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Where am I exactly going, if you can explain to me?
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Its not Croatian culture that gave us Dubrovnik. That city is NOW in Croatia, so, please, take care about past...
That is the answer exactly...some 2000 years ago retired roman legionnaires built a pretty big town named Skupi, which is about a 2 kilometers away from my home and I am not saying that the world should praise people in Macedonia and their great culture because of it. You'll say that you cannot compare it with Dubrovnik - of course, we have cataclysmic earthquakes every 100-150 years and that's all left of it.
Please don't put art or architecture in a political or national context, it only makes things worse...instead try to understand the creators rational and creative way of thinking. The architect's way of thinking is how to make people's lives easier and pleasant, not make someone proud of their nationality or political belonging.

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Well, then how is an architectural significance determined if those buildings are not special and significant?! If I ever build the ugliest building in the world, should it be protected and praised for its ugliness, or should it, rationally, be demolished? Also, architects' taste CAN'T be different than that of non-architects because, at the end of the day, architects are designing those buildings for other people, majority of which are not architects, and not for their enormous ego.
I am not making the rules for determining the architectural significance, there is a science called history of architecture that deals with it, but mostly these buildings that are significant were innovative - they brought new materials, new concepts in plan design or something else...everything else is reinterpretation or repetition of something already seen before.
And it's true that the architects design buildings for other people and very often are forced into compromises such as this. I am pretty sure that if you make an inquiry between architects, this design that was chosen in Berlin would be the one with the least votes. It's full of compromises regarding it's functionality, complexity and the cost of realization just because of someone's nostalgia and someone else's populism. The ego that you're talking about is actually a complex way of thinking, analyzing and understanding, built after years of difficult education in construction, design concepts, architectural history....sometimes I feel sorry for myself because of all the nonsense that I hear from the investors, but that's just the way things go.
Greetings to Croatia, I miss the old days when I spent my summer vacations on the Adriatic coast, it's a real jewel in the Mediterranean.
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Old July 5th, 2015, 12:34 AM   #1358
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Well, just because some buildings introduced something new, it doesn't mean that they are superior in comparison with buildings built later, but in the same style. Usually those new techniques were upgraded, something new was introduced, etc. I think this palace is important because there aren't many similar, just like Berlin Cathedral or Altes Museum. Maybe they weren't something cutting-edge, but they are unique and they aren't completely worthless.

When I mentioned Dubrovnik, I was thinking how every nation should have something it will be proud of, something which will show all achievements that happened during the history in that particular region. It wasn't my intention to bring political and nationalistic discussion on this forum.

Berliner Stadtschloss is a building that will have a purpose. It will be used as a museum, library and a gathering place for the citizens. It's not something that was completely initiated by politicians. It's Germany. People would've complained and protested if they didn't like the project. Of course, there are people that don't like it, but they are in a minority. Also, it could be redone in the future and the original interiors can be rebuilt. The building will be a new old symbol of Berlin, something important that this city lost. I can't imagine something better being built on that very spot and I think the citizens of Berlin would agree with me. After all, Berlin is a completely new city, but none of those new buildings managed to become super popular all around the world. The palace will 100% suceed in that task. It doesn't mean we should build completely new baroque buildings that were never there, but we should reconstruct the old ones because they represent European achievements throughout history. Contemporary architecture doesn't really care for aesthetics any more, and it's all about money because investors don't want to spend more money on a complicated, but cool building. That's why Berlin is so bland today and its most famous buildings are (usually) those built before WW2.

Greeting to Macedonia, and I hope your politicians will stop constructing plastic classical buildings because they really look cheap and funny. They should've hired Norman Foster or Santiago Calatrava, they would've built something awesome.
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Old July 5th, 2015, 02:13 AM   #1359
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I think this palace is important because there aren't many similar, just like Berlin Cathedral or Altes Museum. Maybe they weren't something cutting-edge, but they are unique and they aren't completely worthless.
Don't listen to Gadjowsky, If he doesn't know, that for example the Altes Museum ranks among the world's finest neoclassical buildings, then he doesn't know, what he is talking about. It was cutting edge in it's day. One of the first public museums in the world and very unusual, because it actually is hiding the grand dome on the outside, that completely surprises and overwhelms the visitors inside.

Altes Museum by damian schaerer, on Flickr
BER_AltesMuseum_07 by chiang_benjamin, on Flickr

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The historic, protected building counts among the most distinguished in neoclassicism and is a high point of Schinkel's career.
Wikipedia

It isn't part of UNESCO World Heritage for nothing.

Also the neorenaissance Bauakademie on the opposite side of the City Palace was cutting edge, when it was build and you will find it in many books of architecture.

Der Schinkelplatz in Berlin Mitte by Johannes, on Flickr

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The Bauakademie (English Building Academy) in Berlin, Germany, built between 1832 and 1836, is considered one of the forerunners of modern architecture due to its theretofore uncommon use of red brick and the relatively streamlined facade of the building.
Wikipedia

Sadly it was torn down by the GDR, but it will also be reconstructed soon.
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Old July 5th, 2015, 04:51 PM   #1360
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Off topic, why was erbse banned?
I'd like to know myself. He is a great guy from what I know of him on SSC. I miss him. He was thoughtful and knowledgeable. I hope he doesn't get so mad at SSC that he never comes back.
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