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Old December 23rd, 2015, 11:08 PM   #1621
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The Berliner stadtschloss was never on my list of faves until recently, because its relatively obscure and I always found the exterior to be monotonous and asymmetrical. It's currently my favorite though, so I guess it's an acquired taste? As far as interesting construction history, though, Versailles will probably always top my lists. I'm almost never as much of a fan of palaces constructed all at once for some reason. The layout is just less interesting I guess? As far as the tourism aspect of interiors of palaces, I think I can attest to that. On my guided tour of Budapest, we even drove up to the top of the hill Buda castle was on, and still didn't bother to check out the palace, let alone go on a tour, because its completely full of communist era government and library spaces after it was burnt out in WWII.
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Old December 24th, 2015, 12:42 AM   #1622
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I like when the whole building is well-proportioned and organised, so the original Stadtschloss wouldn't completely "please" my taste, although the interior was quite something, probably one of the best in the world and the baroque part of the facade was also stunningly beautiful. About Versailles, it doesn't attract me that much, I mean, I would visit it if I had an opportunity, but I would rather choose Ludwigsburg, Augustusburg or Catherine Palace.

Also, I'm surprised that the Hohenzollerns haven't done some heavy rebuilding of the renaissance part of the palace, I mean, the palace was their "stronghold" so one would expect a desire for perfection.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 12:42 AM   #1623
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When in Budapest

Dodo00:

The next time that you are in the Budapest area, visit Godolo to see the former imperial estate. It's been completely restored inside and out after being trashed by the occupying Soviet army. I think that those who advocate a complete restoration of the Berliner Stadtschloss would approve.

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Old December 25th, 2015, 03:14 AM   #1624
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I'm curious why you prefer Catherine palace to Versailles.. I mean, catherine palace is definitely up in my top 10, and Versailles doesn't have that coherence you love, but the staterooms facing the garden are perfectly arranged (especially under the conditions) and the garden facade is incredibly coherent for the circumstances. Catherine palace is coherent, but its proportional width is admittedly a bit ridiculous and those additions to either end throw off rastrelli's original design.. At least the later additions to the Berliner stadtschloss were usually improvements up until wilhelm II

Edit: Actually eosanders additions made the palace less symmetrical on the north and south but he did the best he could under restrictions hampering his grand design..

Back to the topic though, I think there were plans to rebuild at least the cross wing if not the spree facade as well in the baroque style. I personally prefer the palace with older parts as well, just for the added history implied and to see the compromises the architects were forced to cleverly devise.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 06:32 PM   #1625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodo00 View Post
...On my guided tour of Budapest, we even drove up to the top of the hill Buda castle was on, and still didn't bother to check out the palace, let alone go on a tour, because its completely full of communist era government and library spaces after it was burnt out in WWII...
Really sorry and our humble apologies for not entertaining you in sufficient manner at the Buda Castle. Really communist era government and library spaces are there to be seen, but luckily you were fortunate enough not to visit them.

So you have an opinion about sg you did not see - used as an argumentation on the likeliness of the new Stadtschloss.

I've been many times in Berlin, but never thought about using the name of the Karl Marx Allee, or the existence of Marx and Engels' statue for argumentation.

Just make it clear: the Buda Castle was completely burnt out when your country gave us a helping hand last time, but we rebuilt it in the 70's and did not demolish it completely, like your fellow GDR-state did it with the remains of the Stadtschloss. Sorry, that you do not like the result and resisted to visit Buda Castle to see the reality.

As a moderator i am aware that all flame war begins like this, but i will not go in any further discussion. However, the gun was shot by You and do not wonder if there is also a respond.
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Somehow i got the feeling no one is able to imagine those large, restored royal rooms and halls with full of valuable paintings, statues and... museum visitors.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 06:40 PM   #1626
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I don't think dodo wanted to make a political statement, it's just that obviously he expected there wouldn't be much to see inside Buda Castle.
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Old December 25th, 2015, 07:08 PM   #1627
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I do not mean the political part of the message, but he wrote: he did not visit it, so how he knows?

There are and there were never been any communist governmental spaces in the Buda Castle, we had and have there our National Gallery, the National Library with tremendous number of World treasure books, the Budapest History Museum and the Sándor Palace, seat of the President of the Republic since 2003. (Political change happened in 1989).

BTW i am glad about the restauration of the Stadtschloss in Berlin, it will be way nicer then the Palast of Republic was earlier.
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Somehow i got the feeling no one is able to imagine those large, restored royal rooms and halls with full of valuable paintings, statues and... museum visitors.

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Old December 26th, 2015, 01:29 AM   #1628
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First of all, bringing up what country I am from is completely uncalled for, I had nothing to do with things that happened 50 years ago and was born here completely by coincidence.

I don't want to start a flame war, and was honestly not expecting such an offended reaction. I just wish to say that I have seen photos from before the war and after the reconstruction, the traditional interiors make me want to visit much more than the modern interiors, and I think that a great deal of tourists would agree with me. I believe my personal preference is a little bit of evidence to support my point.

I understand that after what happened in the war we are fortunate still to have an outer shell, especially after considering the lack of money. I criticize the purposeful destruction of so much artistic detail after the war, but I can understand the reasons for simpler interior reconstruction. However, I cannot truthfully say that as an architecture tourist I would be compelled to tour the modern interiors.
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Old December 26th, 2015, 09:23 PM   #1629
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There's still the reconstructed parts of the courtyards though which are well worth to take a step inside!
And the museums of the Humboldt-Forum will be great as well, I think.
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Old December 27th, 2015, 05:30 PM   #1630
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Adaptive Reuse

I would rather see an old building preserved or rebuilt by finding a new use for it than seeing it allowed to be torn down or allowed to go to ruin. Rebuilding the Stadtschloss in Potsdam as well as in Berlin are good examples of what in the architectural profession is known as "adaptive reuse." By this, I mean that you salvage the exterior and what other elements you can and incorporate them into the new interior. Why some of you seem to be so opposed to this when the alternative is no building at all is beyond me. In my opinion, Communist Hungary did a great job with the former Budapest Royal Palace. Germany is now doing a great job with the Berliner Stadtschloss as it has already done in Potsdam. True, there are numerous restorations in Europe that have taken place since World War II that are complete faithful replications of destroyed buildings. However, if that is never going to happen, I would welcome buildings like the new Humboldt Forum any time over having nothing but a memory.
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Old December 27th, 2015, 11:10 PM   #1631
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It's ok when they do it for temporary use, but I dislike when they reconstruct an important building like this palace without making it completely "reconstrutable" in the future. I know that they can rebuild parts of the interior some day, but the majority of the interior can't be reconstructed. Same goes for Potsdamer Stadtschloss, they've changed the ground plan so the interior just can't be COMPLETELY reconstructed, other examples being Herrenhausen Palace, Braunschweig Palace etc. We all know how important royal palaces can be for a city, just look at Vienna and its Schonbrunn, which is a major cultural venue partly because of its opulent interior which adds to the atmosphere when there is a concert of classical music or something like that. Now, I know it's VERY expensive to rebuild the interior, but to leave the opportunity for doing it in the future isn't, so I don't get why it's not done with projects like this. Modern cultural venues are being built and will continue to be built, and that's how it should be as we live in a completely different world, but having a glimpse of former cultural taste just for us to experience is very crucial for the cultural enlightment of a city or even nation.
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Old December 28th, 2015, 01:08 AM   #1632
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Quote:
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We all know how important royal palaces can be for a city, just look at Vienna and its Schonbrunn, which is a major cultural venue partly because of its opulent interior which adds to the atmosphere when there is a concert of classical music or something like that.
What Schönbrunn and the Belvedere are to Vienna, Charlottenburg Palace and the palaces of Sanssouci are to Berlin. If you want to induldge yourself in royal/imperial opulance Berlin doesn't need to hide from Vienna.
Now we additionally also get the exterior and courtyards of the City Palace back. That's a huge step in the right direction.
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Old December 28th, 2015, 01:26 AM   #1633
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While both of those palaces are wonderful and fully deserve their UNESCO World Heritage status, they're rather modest in size, and Berliner Stadtschloss was the "central" and giant residence comparable with any other royal residence in the world.
The project of the palace is a huge step in the right direction itself, especially when you consider the struggle the initiators of the project had to go through, but my opinion is that it shouldn't be done at any cost, with some compromises we won't be able to redo later.
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Old December 28th, 2015, 03:25 AM   #1634
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I'd agree that reusing a building is a better alternative. Actually, I am slightly pleased, at least one stateroom of Buda Castle appears to have survived, albeit heavily simplified! Better than nothing. Can be seen before/after at 5:30 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0El1Oa_Ivg

But Titan Man, there is nothing in the reconstruction that can't be reversed. They demolished the palast, after all! I don't think tearing out a floor or two is such a huge deal, though demolition of the spree facade for its historic reconstruction would add significantly to the price tag.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that the main staterooms of the Potsdamer Schloss were actually allowed future reconstruction. I'll admit, though, the rooms hidden in the attic make the roof hideous and the way they altered the wings is a bit cringey.
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Old December 28th, 2015, 08:26 AM   #1635
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Quote:
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While both of those palaces are wonderful and fully deserve their UNESCO World Heritage status, they're rather modest in size, and Berliner Stadtschloss was the "central" and giant residence comparable with any other royal residence in the world.
Even though they are UNESCO sites, they are not good enough, just because of their size...? Do you always measure architecture and art by it's size?
That being said, Charlottenburg Palace is bigger than the Belvedere and the Neues Palais of Sanssouci is of similar size than Schönbrunn.
The front facade of the Neues Palais is with 220m even longer actually. Schönbrunn's main facade is "just" 180m long.

Neues Palais, Sanssouci:

Neues Palais in Potsdam by caputter, on Flickr

Potsdam Neues Palais S.E.elevation 2 by Koenigsmark, on Flickr

Potsdam Neues Palais South elevation by Koenigsmark, on Flickr

University of Potsdam at Neues Palais (Potsdam, Germany) by Sergey Pavlichenko, on Flickr



Honestly, in which universe is this considered "modest"? And this just one of 5 palaces in the park of Sanssouci.

Your arguments are as always easily refutable, like with the "Russia has reconstructed much more palaces and castles than Germany" claim. You seem to be pretty interested and knowledgable about Germany, but there is apparently still a lot that you don't know...
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Last edited by Tiaren; December 28th, 2015 at 09:18 AM.
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Old December 28th, 2015, 12:47 PM   #1636
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Quote:
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Even though they are UNESCO sites, they are not good enough, just because of their size...? Do you always measure architecture and art by it's size?
That being said, Charlottenburg Palace is bigger than the Belvedere and the Neues Palais of Sanssouci is of similar size than Schönbrunn.
The front facade of the Neues Palais is with 220m even longer actually. Schönbrunn's main facade is "just" 180m long.

Your arguments are as always easily refutable, like with the "Russia has reconstructed much more palaces and castles than Germany" claim. You seem to be pretty interested and knowledgable about Germany, but there is apparently still a lot that you don't know...
Of course I don't measure architecture by size, I myself like Charlottenburg and Sanssouci much more than Schönbrunn. Size isn't a factor when it comes to architecture, at least for me. For instance, I'm not very fond of Versailles and Caserta, Europe's biggest palaces. The size matters when it comes to hosting some bigger cultural events, like balls, dinners etc. Sanssouci is a lot smaller than Schönbrunn when it comes to number of rooms, their size... Just look at the ballroom of Schönbrunn, it's like half of the Sanssouci Palace (not literally ). Neues Palais is a different story, it was intentionally built as a "show-off" by Frederick the Great, and it looks like that, but there's one problem. It is in Potsdam, not Berlin. No matter how close these two cities are and the fact that the palaces in Berlin and Potsdam are together on the UNESCO Heritage List, it's still not the same as if it was a palace in Berlin. The Berliner Stadtschloss, on the other hand, is located in the heart of Berlin and the rooms were gigantic enough to host a concert of Metallica ( ). Of course, the reconstructed palace that we're getting now will be a major cultural hub itself and one can't expect the reconstruction of all rooms in few years, the Hohenzollerns needed few centuries to do it, and they were rich as sh*t, but to leave a chance for a complete adjustment in the future is not that big of a deal.

If my arguments are refutable, feel fully free to dispute them, I don't care, it's also a good way to learn something. About those Russian palaces, I answered you, but all the posts were erased so I don't know if you've seen my reply. One also has to take into consideration that English is not my first language and when I write a post, I do it in few minutes since there's always something that interrupts me, so I can write something which is not what I meant (again, the argument with Russian palaces) or something can sound different than what I intended to say. That's why I don't want to drag myself into fights here often. Anyway, I think there's not much to say anymore and we should stop spoiling the thread with meaningless arguments and enjoy the photos from the construction site and renders of the finished building.
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Old December 28th, 2015, 03:13 PM   #1637
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As has been said before, the reconstruction of many major rooms of Berlin's Palace will still be perfectly possible with some modifications (like new walls that'd have to be added). It's not much of a big deal, really.

Dunno how often this has to be repeated, but well..

Let's first manage that we get the facades financed completely, or we might never see a single room coming back - even if you only donate some Euros, it adds up as many people do it:

http://berliner-schloss.de/en/donations/
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Old December 28th, 2015, 03:28 PM   #1638
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What happens if they don't collect enough money for the facades and the government interrupts? Will they continue collecting money even when the building is done to repay the state or what?
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Old December 28th, 2015, 03:35 PM   #1639
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I doubt very much they would have come with money and political approval for the project had it not been sold as a new house for the Ethnographic Museum and other research facilities. I guess the global importance of the collection currently sit in the Dahlem buildings is loss to some forumers. It is simply on of the top 3 systematic collections of ethnographic works and registers of older times, and the one that was started the earliest with a scientific approach (instead of just someone with money randomly traveling around the World and buying cool stuff).

The Dahlem buildings are quite maxed out, and they are a stick-together of rooms and spaces progressively expanded over time with results that are not always the best. The university there also needs space for other non-exhibition activities.

These objects need to be displayed in relatively neutral rooms so that they - not the room details/relief/decoration - stands out. That is quite a normal practice among museums and galleries worldwide. You can go for grandiose forms that don't mess with the scale of objects shown (such as the Guggenheim buildings), you can have specific rooms where the decoration is part of the exhibition, but no one mainstream top curator would recommend a new, multi-million and large buildings rebuilt as some old palace with all details and visual distractions as the preferred environment for an ethnographic museum.

That would only make sense if they were building a museum centered around the palace itself. But that, as I said, would never muster the political and financial support to expend that much money...

I think many people here are clung on the building itself, giving its proposed use nothing more than a minor afterthought. The building would not have gone up without the proposed uses, in all likelihood. And I think it would be politically unacceptable for the university to come up 20 years from now and ask for another € 300 million because they decided to put extra walls, visually pollute what must be blank walls and else, rendering the museum "outdated" for its purposes.
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Old December 28th, 2015, 06:13 PM   #1640
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Usage Is Important

I agree with "Suburbanist." If there had not been a practical use for the building in the twenty-first century, the Stadtschloss would most likely never have been rebuilt. As he points out: The building by itself was hardly the only reason that the place is being rebuilt. As we watch the reconstruction progress we need to remember that.

Frankly some of you act like they ought to have chamber pots rather than restrooms in the new building in order to be "authentic."
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