daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > General Urban Developments

General Urban Developments Discussions of projects shorter than 100m/300ft. Also, please post all other threads not specified in other Development News subforums here.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 10th, 2016, 09:55 AM   #1721
Mainyehc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 15
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Gatlin View Post
The Humboldt Forum is a brilliant addition to Museum Island and Berlin. It represents the resilience and love for craftsmanship and quality that has defined Germany for so long. How anyone from some effete mediterranean backwater could diss Berlin is beyond me.
Now, now. There's no need to hurl gratuitous and unsubstantiated insults at other cities just because on of its inhabitants has a viewpoint different than yours and expresses it in an admittedly blunt fashion (I mean, “shit”, “crap”, “hate” and “cancer” are really strong words, but don't you get that _Barca_ probably agrees with you on the fact that germans have indeed exhibited great craftsmanship for much of their recent history, only not enough of it on this particular project?).

I am usually a lurker in these forums, and I tend to follow a select few projects for different reasons: the developments at the World Trade Center, because I've been there in 2004 and was heavily touched by the enormity of what was back then the “Ground Zero”; the basilica of La Sagrada Familia, because it is probably one of the craziest but most interesting buildings ever designed (and this coming from a staunch atheist, mind you); and the Humboldt Forum, because Berlin is, out of all the cities where I never set foot on, the one I know best (I had to do extensive research on the Berlin Wall for an academic project and, by extension, ended up developing an interest for german history – all of it).

My fellow “effete”, barcelonian forum-goer professes a view I don't actually agree 100% with… If you ask me, as ugly as the Palast der Republik was, it probably shouldn't have been torn down, but instead preserved and/or turned into a museum.

Please bear with me: I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a country that, along with Spain/Catalonia and Germany alike, also went through a long-lasting dictatorship (albeit not as vicious as those that ravaged your countries, I'll give you that). We had no qualms in preserving quite a few fascist buildings (well, most of them, really) as a testament to what the regime was and because they were plain useful, without focusing much in erasing [physical] history, and instead changing a few street and structure names (we did change the name of the then largest suspension bridge outside of the US – red as the Golden Gate, but modelled after and built by the same company that built the Bay Area bridge – from Salazar, the name of the dictator, to the date of the Carnation Revolution that deposed his successor and put an end to his regime; how's that for a posthumous and proverbial slap in the face?).

As for Berlin… In the same vein, the berlinese did keep the Tempelhof Airport and the Olympiastadion because they fell under the BRD and were extremely useful (I wonder how they would have survived the blockade without the former?), but got rid of the damaged and politically charged Neue Reischskanzlei and lost the unrelated and (I'm guessing) more politically vanilla and historically relevant Stadtschloss, along with many more monuments, because they fell under the rather insensitive Soviets and later the DDR… And in turn got back at history by rebuilding it on top of the Palast der Republik… So, really, their collective urban planning “choices” are all over the place, on account of differing political orientations, and the decision to rebuild the Stadtschloss in this current form is very much a political statement.

We have to ask ourselves: are the Fernsehturm and Alexanderplatz Weltzeituhr representative enough as urban design/engineering artifacts of the DDR? And is the Staatsratsgebäude, with its own weird mix of modern and baroque elements, representative enough of its architecture (ugly as it may have seemed)? I, personally, think not, and would have loved to actually see the Palast in person if I ever got to go to Berlin before it was torn down. Though I do lean towards the left of the political spectrum, I don't suffer from Ostalgie in any way whatsoever (my country, as I've mentioned, also went through a dictatorship; feeling that would be incredibly stupid and incoherent, IMHO), I just have the same curiosity for the DDR as I have for the rest of german history, and I believe I'm not alone on that.

But I can certainly understand the viewpoint of someone from Barcelona, a city where a group of architects, engineers, artisans and builders are painstakingly trying to piece together Gaudí's plans and models (unfortunately destroyed and scatterd during the Spanish Civil War, and only partially recovered or otherwise reproduced from photographs) and the actual building itself, displaying a much greater effort in actually achieving his vision (even with modern materials and techniques, but arguably Gaudí wouldn't mind their use – he famously proposed a futuristic skyscraper for Manhattan, so there's that – and probably even expected it, seing that he knew fully well that his work would never be completed during his lifetime and even accounted for that fact, hence his models). Not unlike Gaudí's plans, there is enough documental evidence of the Stadtschloss' most interesting interiors (the chapel and monumental staircase, for instance) to warrant and enable a more accurate reconstruction, and not doing so is, I must say, half-assed. I do not agree that rebuilding it at all was the best choice but, since that's an irreversible fact, not doing it all the way isn't really interesting either, as you get neither of the original buildings but an incomplete and bland architectural frankenstein.

Now, the big question is: why? Cost? Yes, it seems so. This thing will cost more than €500M, even as it is, in its half-assed state. It begs to wonder how much more expensive would have been to just renew the Palast after the asbestos removal, and adapt it into a museum (be it a DDR museum or the Humboldt Forum, as the former building, being the headquarters of a defunct nation allied with an equally defunct federation, would certainly fit in with the latter's mission statement: “to generate a public debate appropriate to the multi-layered relationships between Germany and the rest of the world”)…

And in the context of a continental and global crisis, my dear fellow san franciscan forum-goer, cost is where and when, as we portuguese say, “the varnish cracks”. Extolling german virtues (which I'm not denying… But not extolling myself either, because they actually live in a glass house much like Sir Norman Foster's Reichstagsgebäude dome, and I will soon explain why) while calling Barcelona an “effete mediterranean backwater” is not only a crass insult, but also easily extensible to other (per your impossible standards) “mediterranean backwaters” (being from Lisbon and actually having been to Barcelona, I can tell you that though the former is atlantic, the similarities are there and both are extremely cosmopolitan cities… Oh, and by the way, from what I've been told, our trams, hills and bridge are also very reminiscent of your own city) and extremely misguided.

First up, the german are indeed dumping more than €500M on a museum during a crisis; also, they are responsible for the infamous Berlin Brandendburg Airport fiasco, which is still not open but wasting money in really stupid ways (such as having the terminal lighting on even though the thing wasn't – and still isn't – slated to open any day soon), and you still think Barcelona is an “effete mediterranean backwater”?

Maybe it is, indeed, a bit “effete” in the sense that it's kind of “french-like”, which feels a bit strange in that part of the world but adds to its charm… The “mediterranean” part is inescapable and should be literal but, ensconced between those two derogatory terms, reads suspiciously like a slur… Did you mean it as such? Please, do correct me if I'm wrong. As for it being a “backwater”, well… As far as the economy and especially real estate go it is, to the point that the people of Barcelona were forced to elect a far-left mayor (think Bernie Sanders, only actually radical – by your american standards, at least) in order to stop mass evictions because, hello there, the Germany-dominated EC is only worried about bank bailouts (financed by taxpayers… Can you guess where they got the idea from?), all the while the German Federal State rakes in surpluses and wastes them in frivolities like these (for the record and by the way, La Sagrada Familia is being exclusively financed by donations and admission fees, so there's that).

Much like the berlinese, barcelonians survived a lot of crap throughout history (think across-the-board Civil War, not between entire states like on the US – because Spain is a small and homogeneous country by comparison – but all around the country and amongst family, friends and acquaintances; sort of like the Bosnian War, except politically instead of religiously motivated – though the catholic church was mostly in cahoots with the fascists, and republicans were for the most part atheists, but that's besides the point), and theirs is actually a very resilient, well organized and thought-out city, with a perfectly square plan like NY's (the Ensanche/Eixample) and an efficient metro system which completely dwarfs the Muni metro (11 lines vs. 6, 180 stations vs. 140 and, more importantly, 144,3 km/89.7 mi of tracks vs. 55,7 km/34.6 mi), so, really, calling it a “backwater” is totally inaccurate and disrespectful.

I am sorry if I come off as being rude to my fellow german forum-goers, and I may be banned from this thread or from SSC altogether on account of my political comments, but if that's the price to pay in order to introduce some truth and perspective, so be it. As much as I love architecture and discussing it peacefully and apolitically with fellow fans, the line has to be drawn somewhere.
__________________

_Barca_, Awell liked this post

Last edited by Mainyehc; March 10th, 2016 at 11:58 AM.
Mainyehc no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 10th, 2016, 10:03 AM   #1722
Mainyehc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 15
Likes (Received): 13

By the way, Steve et al., because I hate to post vitriol without backing it up, here's an article explaining the aforementioned Berlin Brandenburg Airport fiasco in detail, by none other than Bloomberg:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/featur...-embarrassment

Last edited by Mainyehc; March 10th, 2016 at 10:13 AM.
Mainyehc no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2016, 07:23 PM   #1723
_Barca_
Registered User
 
_Barca_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 582
Likes (Received): 73

So I'm angry at puting a modern wall on a german old palace reconstruction and somehow I'm insulting german craftmanship
And also, to say Barcelona is backwater when it's the 10th most visited city in the world and one of the best to live it's beyond stupid.
_Barca_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2016, 08:42 PM   #1724
BLACK DAHLIA
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: BALBOA ISLAND/PASADENA
Posts: 566

Well executed!...

Last edited by BLACK DAHLIA; March 11th, 2016 at 01:39 AM.
BLACK DAHLIA no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2016, 09:22 PM   #1725
krokkel
Registered User
 
krokkel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,632
Likes (Received): 1034

Waving the flag of good taste over Berlin ? If the Berliners are happy with this building as you are with your flag, what's the problem ?
__________________

Titan Man, artObserver liked this post
krokkel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2016, 12:16 PM   #1726
Tiaren
Registered User
 
Tiaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,702
Likes (Received): 5550

Wait, how did we get into this huge argument...wasn't Barca just commenting (in a little aggressive way maybe) on the modern parts of the Palace/Humboldt-Forum and not the complete thing? In fact most of us in here would have wished for the modern parts to be reconstructed as well...

@Mainyehc, even though you did research on Berlin, it felt as if your view/understanding of the reconstruction of the City Palace is still a little superficial.
Also, when critisizing the huge cost of it all, you completely forgot to mention that the baroque facades (costing about 105 million €) are in fact donated by us people. (The baroque facades are the shell for a modern center for art and culture, which the city needs since other such centers in Berlin's Dahlem district fell into disrepair.) I too donated for these facades. If you tell me I shouldn't donate my private money to a cause that's dear to me for about twenty years and that makes me happy, just because you feel like we should rather wallow in misery because of a crisis (there will always be one!) and because of something politicians ****ed up with the BER airport, then I can't help but laugh at that, sorry. :/
__________________
Tiaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2016, 05:53 PM   #1727
Joe Whalen 7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 172
Likes (Received): 128

The Size of the Place

Unless a workman stands beside some detail of the new Humboldt Forum, the true size of the building is not readily apparent from the photographs available online. For example, the windows on the first three floors must be almost four meters tall or twice the height of the average man. It's turning out to be literally a really big building.
Joe Whalen 7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2016, 07:43 PM   #1728
Mainyehc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 15
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Wait, how did we get into this huge argument...wasn't Barca just commenting (in a little aggressive way maybe) on the modern parts of the Palace/Humboldt-Forum and not the complete thing? In fact most of us in here would have wished for the modern parts to be reconstructed as well...

@Mainyehc, even though you did research on Berlin, it felt as if your view/understanding of the reconstruction of the City Palace is still a little superficial.
Also, when critisizing the huge cost of it all, you completely forgot to mention that the baroque facades (costing about 105 million €) are in fact donated by us people. (The baroque facades are the shell for a modern center for art and culture, which the city needs since other such centers in Berlin's Dahlem district fell into disrepair.) I too donated for these facades. If you tell me I shouldn't donate my private money to a cause that's dear to me for about twenty years and that makes me happy, just because you feel like we should rather wallow in misery because of a crisis (there will always be one!) and because of something politicians ****ed up with the BER airport, then I can't help but laugh at that, sorry. :/
Well, Tiaren, first off, thank you so much for that information. In fact, I fully acknowledge that I do not know as much about Berlin as I'd like, and not having been there (or to Germany even, for that matter… I will, finally and even after studying german for a while, sing at a choir festival near Frankfurt) doesn't help, either.

It's nice to know, then, that the comparatively most expensive and symbolic part of the building was paid by donations… But that still leaves multiple hundreds of millions of € for the public budget to cover (and the comparison with La Sagrada Familia still holds, because it is 100% funded by donations, but I only brought it up anyway because our fellow commenter comes from Barcelona… And, besides, it's taking ages to finish because of that), and my diatribe with public expenses is related more to timing than anything else; we did spend a lot of EEC funds to build a large cultural centre here in Lisbon, too, but that was back when we weren't amidst a crisis second only to the one of the 1930s (yes, there will always be crisis, but not a global and pan-european crisis like the one we're still slogging through, those are few and far between). Anyway, as for the BER, we are no strangers to massive overspending in big public infrastructure projects, either. But we'll have to agree on disagreeing; just laughing it off lets the ones responsible off the hook and does nothing to prevent it from happening again. :/

Anyway, back on topic: is there any chance that some of the interiors may be completed some day and benefit from those donations you mentioned? If I'm not able to see the Palast, I might as well see the Stadtschloss in its full glory.

Last edited by Mainyehc; March 12th, 2016 at 06:28 AM.
Mainyehc no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2016, 07:55 PM   #1729
BLACK DAHLIA
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: BALBOA ISLAND/PASADENA
Posts: 566

Berlin Mitte is by far my favorite Berlin!..so romantic!
I just realize the hotel i stay in when in Berlin (Radisson Blue) is across the street!
The Pergamonmuseum is a must see nearby among other prime cultural institutions.
Kudos Berlin!..Ich bin ein Berliner!!

Last edited by BLACK DAHLIA; March 11th, 2016 at 08:35 PM.
BLACK DAHLIA no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2016, 02:39 PM   #1730
Ludi
✪ Mr. Ludolf ✪
 
Ludi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 15,218
Likes (Received): 34647

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubaibobby View Post
Vom Berliner Dom aus hat man einen grandiosen Blick auf das aktuelle Baugeschehen.










































Bilder von mir
pics ©dubaibobby
__________________
Pics/ Bilder ©Ludi

soweit nicht anders angegeben außerhalb von den Skybars.

Berlin Projects
Ludi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2016, 07:04 AM   #1731
towerpower123
Let's Revive our Cities
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Howell/Newark, NJ
Posts: 2,242
Likes (Received): 4181

Are they going to do anything to cover the gaps?
Most grand stone buildings had mortar that filled the gap perfectly and closely matched in color.
__________________
If I don't say otherwise, all of my images are on my blog,
http://urbanismvsmodernism.blogspot.com/?view=sidebar

186 Newark, NJ Development projects MAPPED
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1874870
http://urbanismvsmodernism.blogspot....l?view=sidebar

See my DeviantArt account at http://towerpower123.deviantart.com/
towerpower123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2016, 06:07 PM   #1732
JustinHerman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 119
Likes (Received): 169

In time, the gaps between the stones will be filled with grout to prevent moisture from seeping in.
JustinHerman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2016, 10:28 PM   #1733
Tiaren
Registered User
 
Tiaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,702
Likes (Received): 5550

Quote:
Originally Posted by towerpower123 View Post
Are they going to do anything to cover the gaps?
Yes, don't worry.
__________________

storms991 liked this post
Tiaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2016, 12:43 PM   #1734
Ludi
✪ Mr. Ludolf ✪
 
Ludi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 15,218
Likes (Received): 34647

view from Muehlendamm.



__________________
Pics/ Bilder ©Ludi

soweit nicht anders angegeben außerhalb von den Skybars.

Berlin Projects
Ludi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 02:03 AM   #1735
ovaron
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Berlin
Posts: 254
Likes (Received): 632

Walking the (river) Spree southwards, trying to put the modernist eastern facade into the context of neighbouring baroque bulidings.

Notice the GDR Governmentbuiling in the middle of the last pic! There you can see partly original Portal 4 of the old City palace. It is going to be there twice, when the new palace is finished. This place is a fantastic weird journey throught german modern history!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovaron View Post
Annäherung von Norden:



Ostfassade kommt näher, leider teilweise bei Gegenlicht (Man beachte auch die beiden Brücken, alt und neu):




Zwei Fassaden, ein Gebäude:


Eine Krone für die Ostfassade. Leider bei extremen Gegenlicht:


Von der anderen Seite:


Dit gibts nur in Berlin:

__________________

Geoffroi, Titan Man, artObserver, Ludi, erbse and 1 others liked this post
ovaron no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 09:26 PM   #1736
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,225
Likes (Received): 57875

Great updates, kudos everyone!


Past, present, future:

Quote:
Originally Posted by artObserver View Post
Berliner Schlossplatz in times past:

source

...now:

© picture-alliance, source

... and in the near future:

© Förderverein Berliner Schloss e.V., source
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...067913&page=30
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 09:32 PM   #1737
Titan Man
Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-nana
 
Titan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Zadar
Posts: 593
Likes (Received): 719

Hopefully, the Cathedral will be restored, as well...
__________________
If you build it, they'll come.

ILOVENY, Steinar37, artObserver liked this post
Titan Man no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 09:40 PM   #1738
BLACK DAHLIA
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: BALBOA ISLAND/PASADENA
Posts: 566

...Is it really going to be a pedestrian zone?
BLACK DAHLIA no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 10:33 PM   #1739
Tiaren
Registered User
 
Tiaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,702
Likes (Received): 5550

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACK DAHLIA View Post
...Is it really going to be a pedestrian zone?
No, it's just a pretty rendering with lots of artistical liberty.
Tiaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2016, 12:22 AM   #1740
cameronpaul
Paris-the city beautiful
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 461

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Barca_ View Post
Do I really have to explain myself? This is not the city palace germans should build, this is a city palace with a modern fugly cancer wall in it. That's what I'm talking about. I welcome every reconstruction project in the whole world, but puting this modern crap in it is what I hate.
I think the modernist wing, though hardly offensive, is a mistake. I guess the only positive aspect is that once again it will show just how uninspiring modern architecture has become - the only way (most) architects these days can make a real statement is either to design some hideous warped freak (viz. Libeskind) or a supertall that towers over everything around it.
__________________

erbse liked this post
cameronpaul no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
baroque fassade, berlin, construction field, heart of the city, humboldt lab dahlem, lustgarten, museum island, prussia, reconstruction, stadtschloss, stella

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu