Fear and Loathing: Brand Spanking New Nabes

[taal]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

It would be interesting for a jaded Toronto family move to central London or Paris, and naively assume they can pick up affordable three bedroom flats for their booming little family. Suddenly, downtown Toronto would seem just a little more "kid friendly" than it did before they moved. Downtown Winnipeg is affordable for families; but then I am not sure that is all that makes a city "kid friendly".

To add to that ... there are a lot of kids downtown already ! It really depends what your definition of downtown is. The st.lawerence market area is full of kids. Along with many of the new condos in the King (EAST) district, King west I'm sure falls into that, it's way too $$$ category.

I'll keep going, the original waterfront i.e. the buildings on Queens Quay, also have a lot of kids of them. Liberty Village has it's share too.
Not to mention all the houses around the core.

[Taller, Better]

It also depends on our definition of kids! I saw a few kids at the Riverdale Zoo!

[InTheBeach]

Originally Posted by Tuscani01

You're on crack. Cityplace buildings have more bedrooms than most condos going up in the city thanks to Councillor Vaughan and his requirement for builders to build larger units for families. Many of the units in Parade are 3 bedroom units, and most of the buildings have knock-out panels that allow you to expand into a neighbouring unit. My building (Luna/Luna Vista) also has more 2 bedroom units than most buildings in the city. If any condo neighbourhood is going to be suitable for families, its going to be Cityplace. Add the park, future schools, community centre, library and the TCHC building (which will be filled with families), and Cityplace will be a great place to raise a kid. It already is from what I have heard from parents living here. It just needs to be completed.

As for spaces for services, those spaces you speak of already exist. They just have yet to be occupied. Businesses don't want to operate in a construction site, so they will most likely remain vacant until Cityplace is complete. A pet shop is opening in the base of N1 next to Fox & Fiddle, and a print shop has recently opened up in the base of Parade, along with a small art gallery.

I find all of the recent threads amusing to say the least. This points to present lifestyle from people who have not proceeded to other stages of their life (and no, I am not suggesting that everyone is going to, or should, get married and have kids).

Couple of points (focused on the various replies here):

- from what I know of CityPlace, the initial buildings are not rampant with multiple bedroom units
- they feel like college dorms
- two bedrooms is the entry size for most families (and frankly, same goes for couples - after living in a one bedroom for years, most couples move out to get more space - should we send them to the burbs, or give them more options in the city? i know what I did)
- already gave props to TCHC
- when compared with a typical street format, the Le Corbusier model does not provide the same space per acre for services, but it does provide more grass for mowing (unless there is crappy turf installed)
- thank god for Adam
- who said it was going to be cheap? not sure why we are looking for cheap solutions for families who will need to pay the market rate
- knock out walls are interesting from a design standpoint, but once units are sold separately, good luck integrating them again (no one is going to buy one unit and hope that the one next to it comes on the market, unless they have time on their side) - this is a cop out for developers - if they are getting the density from the city, they should be finding a way to make the product mix work
- kids in Mahattan are either filthy rich, or dirt poor. what's the point? we can't ignore market forces, and i don't think that anyone is going to be surprised with prices in London or elsewhere - yes, I am acknowledging that middle class families are not likely to be seen downtown soon, but that really comes down to choice -maybe the odd family of four will manage in 1000sqft - that's tight, but not impossible
- i'm unclear on the general bias against families downtown and making sure that a neighbourhood is inclusive to all, and that a successful hood needs to have long term residents who choose to live there - trust me, nobody has more skin in the game than a parent - to me this is just obvious - all you have to do is look around this city - where are the interesting places, and where are the kids? there is a 1 to 1 connection

[InTheBeach]

Originally Posted by taal

To add to that ... there are a lot of kids downtown already ! It really depends what your definition of downtown is. The st.lawerence market area is full of kids. Along with many of the new condos in the King (EAST) district, King west I'm sure falls into that, it's way too $$$ category.

I'll keep going, the original waterfront i.e. the buildings on Queens Quay, also have a lot of kids of them. Liberty Village has it's share too.
Not to mention all the houses around the core.

Cool places, and kids - thanks for making my point!

[InTheBeach]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

It also depends on our definition of kids! I saw a few kids at the Riverdale Zoo!

Cool place, and kids - thanks for making my point!

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by InTheBeach

I find all of the recent threads amusing to say the least. This points to present lifestyle from people who have not proceeded to other stages of their life (and no, I am not suggesting that everyone is going to, or should, get married and have kids).

Couple of points (focused on the various replies here):

- from what I know of CityPlace, the initial buildings are not rampant with multiple bedroom units
- they feel like college dorms
- two bedrooms is the entry size for most families (and frankly, same goes for couples - after living in a one bedroom for years, most couples move out to get more space - should we send them to the burbs, or give them more options in the city? i know what I did)
- already gave props to TCHC
- when compared with a typical street format, the Le Corbusier model does not provide the same space per acre for services, but it does provide more grass for mowing (unless there is crappy turf installed)
- thank god for Adam
- who said it was going to be cheap? not sure why we are looking for cheap solutions for families who will need to pay the market rate
- knock out walls are interesting from a design standpoint, but once units are sold separately, good luck integrating them again (no one is going to buy one unit and hope that the one next to it comes on the market, unless they have time on their side) - this is a cop out for developers - if they are getting the density from the city, they should be finding a way to make the product mix work
- kids in Mahattan are either filthy rich, or dirt poor. what's the point? we can't ignore market forces, and i don't think that anyone is going to be surprised with prices in London or elsewhere - yes, I am acknowledging that middle class families are not likely to be seen downtown soon, but that really comes down to choice -maybe the odd family of four will manage in 1000sqft - that's tight, but not impossible
- i'm unclear on the general bias against families downtown and making sure that a neighbourhood is inclusive to all, and that a successful hood needs to have long term residents who choose to live there - trust me, nobody has more skin in the game than a parent - to me this is just obvious - all you have to do is look around this city - where are the interesting places, and where are the kids? there is a 1 to 1 connection

I'm not sure I'm understanding your position. You don't seem to be suggesting that large family units should be subsidized, so what mechanism should be used to increase their supply? If the city forces developers to build more units than there is natural demand for, then the developers will be forced to sell them for less to get rid of them (which amounts to a subsidy). And if there is demand for such units to be sold at normal market prices, then why aren't developers building more of them already without the city or councilors interfering?

[InTheBeach]

The entire family unit size thing is just a tangent of my argument.

The full argument is:

CityPlace is not designed to be a sustainable neighbourhood.

[Taller, Better]

Brace yourselves, boys and girls. More photos of where the AntiChrist lives!! I figure, if everyone is going to
perma-hate it they should at least keep track of what they are hating.

[Taller, Better]

[Taller, Better]

Down the somewhat weird and a bit morbid St Terry Fox Way....



Actually, not a bad little collection of residential units:











What can I say? No signs of the predicted ghetto life; everyone was young, nicely dressed and apparently enjoying walking in the sunshine, pushing baby carriages, walking dogs in the park, or playing soccer on the pitch.

[InTheBeach]

Sounds like the swinging singles that lived in St. James Town.

Because these are condos, it will take longer for the transformation, but it will happen.

[Taller, Better]

Ah, okay. You certainly feel very strongly on the subject!

Did your firm work on any of these projects or the Maple Leaf condos which you highly approve of?

[InTheBeach]

LOL! Ummm....no.

One is multi-purpose and right in the thick of it (Union Station, ACC, SouthCore).

The is in the middle of nowhere.

[Taller, Better]

Okay, was just wondering why one is supposedly such a failure and the other supposedly a smashing success when to me the projects seem so similar. Seems like splitting hairs a bit, to me, for I really don't see any reason for either to fail, or either to turn into a ghetto. Both seem quite successful to my untrained eye.... but I am not involved in the business. Both are downtown and within easy walking distance of versatile entertainment areas. City Place is a short walk to Roger's Stadium (and King Street and the Harbourfront), and Maple Leaf is of course right next to the Air Canada Centre and also not far from the Harbourfront.

[monkeyronin]

Oh no! When did Beach turn into one of those "Cityplace is going to be the next Jamestown herp derp" people?

[monkeyronin]

Actually, come to think of it, if that did happen it wouldn't be so bad. Affordable rent in the core? Yes please.

[Mollywood]

Look at how dirty and stained the concrete roof of the Fox & Fiddle is. It's not even 5 years old and it already looks terrible. Concrete ages so badly, yet so many developers use it on their buildings. They need to at least give it a good paint job, like they do the underside of balconies, on nicer condos.

[Innsertnamehere]

I was just going to question why the concrete isn't painted.

though in general, I don't have the hate many people have for it. though mind you, I haven't been there.

[InTheBeach]

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

Oh no! When did Beach turn into one of those "Cityplace is going to be the next Jamestown herp derp" people?

Are you kidding? I am the genesis of this distaste!

[InTheBeach]

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

Actually, come to think of it, if that did happen it wouldn't be so bad. Affordable rent in the core? Yes please.

In an organic built environment, that is a good thing (having the odd run down building with lower rents) for the very reason you have stated. Not so sure it is healthly on a large scale.