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Old April 8th, 2012, 12:43 PM   #21
The Mad Navigator
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Originally Posted by spearhead View Post
I mostly drive around peel region since i work and live here. And i used to take the buses all the time before i got my car, and do take subways whenever i go to downtown toronto.
I'm not surprised by this and your pro BRT over LRT response.... Surface LRT is not nearly as bad as you've implied.

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My point is, atleast its cheaper to stick with the BRT system, and if they can implement the same BRT system like the one in Colombia with its dedicated lanes for the buses then thats even great. And yes ofcourse will take away part of the road space specially if they move the dedicated lanes to the middle. Because right now, the BRT system we have here is still sharing with private vehicles in the road, no dedicated lanes yet.
*facepalm* Yes, I partially agree, and true BRT system would work great in some parts of the GTA, but LRT is a better upgrade in my opinion. People are least attracted to transit when it is in bus form and sure, everyone wants subways everywhere, but the reality is that it won't happen like that here. Also, LRT could easily address capacity issues in the future and will handle it much better than a BRT system can.

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Have you ever tried riding in an LRT (Light Rail Transit) trains before?
Sure have, RATP T3 line in Paris and it is GREAT! Quick, efficient, all door loading, signal priority in a dedicated lane, can't wait until we get true LRTs here in Toronto. Hurontario will benefit quite substantially as well once funding is secured and construction is completed.

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The LRT can be elevated and will only stop at every stations, no traffic lights. But if they decided to put it at ground level then it has to yield and follow the traffic lights, stop at red lights.
We don't live in a fantasy land with money available for projects in every corridor. We have to make do with what we have, and elevated LRT is pointless, Why spend 3x as much just to make a somewhat faster ride? It's not all about speed you know, it's about transit accessibility and serving the most riders in a large area. No offense, but you sound like you were part of that Save our Subways group in Toronto and they were only concerned about the Sheppard subway and ignoring the rest of Toronto, most notably the residents of Malvern and Rexdale.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #22
spearhead
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I think you misunderstood me. And that's what i was saying, if we can afford it why not? In regards to Transit City around GTA, they have all my support for the LRT because it is much cheaper to build, very good favor for the GTA residence.

Because I am against to any subway system as much as i hate Rob Ford! But make no mistake though, if we can afford the subways then why not right? If so then i have to love mr. Ford but he's ACTING like an idiot. I think subways will still have the most efficient service more than LRT or BRT. But like mr. Ford, he couldn't even come up with any reasonable explanations where to find money to fund any expensive subway not unless if they bend over and use submaterials from china for our subways that wouldn't last any 5 yrs or 10 yrs before it cave in!

Back to peel region. And yes, i love LRT, but again if we can afford it why not? I'm not sure though how much extra gold bullions does brampton and mississauga combined hehe but if they can fund it all the way from Lakeshore to Sandalwood prkwy atleast that would be great. Just one rail line will do it.

Now let's be realistic, can we really afford any LRT line system along hwy 10 for mississauga/brampton or just settle down with the much cheaper BRT? Come to think of this, if any BRT buses have to abide with ROW as much as what the ground-level LRT trains have to do, then it just make more sense to better off with BRT system then. Since yourself said that its not about the speed but rather its all about the service, then why not BRT? The only difference is that the Buses could only carry less passengers compared with LRV/LRT trains. BRT buses could also be run on electricity as LRT/LRV trains. They could also put additional buses for the BRT, or use those articulated buses so they could ferry more people. And if you could only watch and see how the BRT stations look with their identical automated ticketing system and all other service like what we can find from LRT system, you would love it too. So its just a matter of political will to release any available funds for either LRT or BRT, and which they can really afford without hitting hard on our taxpayer's pockets.

Last edited by spearhead; April 8th, 2012 at 02:45 PM.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #23
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The combined local and express bus service along Hurontario Street (routes 19 and 103) already operates at an average frequency of 3 minutes 14 seconds all day on weekdays. BRT is simply not a viable or cost-effective option for Hurontario.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 09:16 PM   #24
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I lived in a city that has LRT and buses and there is simply no comparison between the level of comfort, reliability and speed between the two systems. LRT is the best option by far.

When considering subway or LRT, and thinking about my experience, riding everyday in a underground tunnel is NOT good for you... LRT is so much better. You see the stret, the light during the day and there are no looong staircases, nor emergy stops in the middle of a dark tunnel. Not to say anything about the cost of building and operating, LRT wins by far. Porto LRT system has 90% of its operating costs covered by tickets and monthly passes, something that would never happen if the choice had been a full subway. The only advantage i see in undergroud systems is the capacity.

The traffic lights in the city i lived were programmed to let the LRT never stop. It was the car that had to stop whenever a LRT was approaching, which i agree.

Another secondary benefit of LRT is that it can be used to improve the streets it goes through. It makes the traffic way more disciplined and can be used to beautify the street.

Last edited by 1. Caravaggio; April 8th, 2012 at 09:26 PM.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 11:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1. Caravaggio View Post
When considering subway or LRT, and thinking about my experience, riding everyday in a underground tunnel is NOT good for you...
Says who?

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Originally Posted by 1. Caravaggio View Post
Not to say anything about the cost of building and operating, LRT wins by far.
Porto LRT system has 90% of its operating costs covered by tickets and monthly passes, something that would never happen if the choice had been a full subway.
Ummm.... you do realize the TTC subway sustem has approximiately 90% cost recovery, don't you?

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Another secondary benefit of LRT is that it can be used to improve the streets it goes through. It makes the traffic way more disciplined and can be used to beautify the street.
Noeither Bloor or Yonge are ugly streets with heavy and chaotic traffic. LRT is not important as a means of calming traffic and I'd argue that LRT wires make a street uglier.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Ummm.... you do realize the TTC subway sustem has approximiately 90% cost recovery, don't you?
Could have been 100% if not for the Sheppard Subway.

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Noeither Bloor or Yonge are ugly streets with heavy and chaotic traffic. LRT is not important as a means of calming traffic and I'd argue that LRT wires make a street uglier.
Ummm.. He is saying street revitalization is usually accompanied with LRT projects, and that is very much true. In many projects, it's a reason LRT projects are so expensive.
As for traffic, you missed his point. He is saying traffic capacity is made more efficient with street-level LRT, and that is true. The hundreds of buses trundling along Finch are set to be replace with fewer vehicles with higher capacity. How is that not traffic calming? I am sure you read John Lornic's globe article on the St. Clair corridor.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 02:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doady View Post
The combined local and express bus service along Hurontario Street (routes 19 and 103) already operates at an average frequency of 3 minutes 14 seconds all day on weekdays. BRT is simply not a viable or cost-effective option for Hurontario.
Brampton's Zum is actually a BRT system that run along hwy10:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-rele...on-1046951.htm

Meanwhile i believe that the mississauga's MiWay will be converted to BRT as well in the future:
http://www.mississauga.ca/portal/miway/brt
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Old April 9th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1. Caravaggio View Post
I lived in a city that has LRT and buses and there is simply no comparison between the level of comfort, reliability and speed between the two systems. LRT is the best option by far.

When considering subway or LRT, and thinking about my experience, riding everyday in a underground tunnel is NOT good for you... LRT is so much better. You see the stret, the light during the day and there are no looong staircases, nor emergy stops in the middle of a dark tunnel. Not to say anything about the cost of building and operating, LRT wins by far. Porto LRT system has 90% of its operating costs covered by tickets and monthly passes, something that would never happen if the choice had been a full subway. The only advantage i see in undergroud systems is the capacity.

The traffic lights in the city i lived were programmed to let the LRT never stop. It was the car that had to stop whenever a LRT was approaching, which i agree.

Another secondary benefit of LRT is that it can be used to improve the streets it goes through. It makes the traffic way more disciplined and can be used to beautify the street.
The GTA's Transit City may have already considered a similar LRT system that goes along with the local traffic ROW street-level where local traffic would stop with the programmed traffic lights such as what you said. I am against that idea though given the fact that GTA is already crowded with cars.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Regarding to the proposal, i think it make more sense to just fully develop that BRT system going north-south along the HWY10...
If you're championing for as urban as an LRT, call the street by its name, this isn't the backwoods of Caledon here.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 09:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spearhead View Post
Brampton's Zum is actually a BRT system that run along hwy10:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-rele...on-1046951.htm
Zum isn't BRT. It's a limited stop service running in mixed traffic. This is the problem with agencies using the BRT moniker to describe any bus service other than a basic route.

Quote:
Meanwhile i believe that the mississauga's MiWay will be converted to BRT as well in the future:
http://www.mississauga.ca/portal/miway/brt
The Mississauga BRT is part of a larger regional system that GO, and Mississauga are building jointly. The BRT is being built in exlusive ROW along the 403, Eastgate Parkway, and Eglinton Ave W. You can see major construction occuring along the 403 just east of Hurontario, along Eastgate, and along Eglinton Ave. E. MiWay is not the name for the BRT, Miway is the new name for Mississauga Transit.

MiWay is the new name for Mississauga Transit.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
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If you're championing for as urban as an LRT, call the street by its name, this isn't the backwoods of Caledon here.
I was born and raised in Brampton, and we always said Hwy 10.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 09:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Zum isn't BRT. It's a limited stop service running in mixed traffic. This is the problem with agencies using the BRT moniker to describe any bus service other than a basic route.



The Mississauga BRT is part of a larger regional system that GO, and Mississauga are building jointly. The BRT is being built in exlusive ROW along the 403, Eastgate Parkway, and Eglinton Ave W. You can see major construction occuring along the 403 just east of Hurontario, along Eastgate, and along Eglinton Ave. E. MiWay is not the name for the BRT, Miway is the new name for Mississauga Transit.

MiWay is the new name for Mississauga Transit.
While i agree with you, the politicians call the Zum as BRT only that they dont have any dedicated bus lanes yet. Not sure if they will build one in the future as i have never finished reading their rendering plans.

Thanks for the correction regarding the MiWay!

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I was born and raised in Brampton, and we always said Hwy 10.
Agreed.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #33
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Transportfan strikes again. A lot of people in Mississauga also say "Highway 10". Why is that so hard to accept?

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Ummm.. He is saying street revitalization is usually accompanied with LRT projects, and that is very much true. In many projects, it's a reason LRT projects are so expensive.
As for traffic, you missed his point. He is saying traffic capacity is made more efficient with street-level LRT, and that is true. The hundreds of buses trundling along Finch are set to be replace with fewer vehicles with higher capacity. How is that not traffic calming? I am sure you read John Lornic's globe article on the St. Clair corridor.
Ummm... he wasn't comparing LRT to buses. He was comparing LRT to subways. To say that LRT is better than subways because of traffic calming is ridiculous.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 09:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spearhead View Post
I think you misunderstood me. And that's what i was saying, if we can afford it why not? In regards to Transit City around GTA, they have all my support for the LRT because it is much cheaper to build, very good favor for the GTA residence.

Because I am against to any subway system as much as i hate Rob Ford! But make no mistake though, if we can afford the subways then why not right? If so then i have to love mr. Ford but he's ACTING like an idiot. I think subways will still have the most efficient service more than LRT or BRT. But like mr. Ford, he couldn't even come up with any reasonable explanations where to find money to fund any expensive subway not unless if they bend over and use submaterials from china for our subways that wouldn't last any 5 yrs or 10 yrs before it cave in!
I pretty much agree with what you're saying here.

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Originally Posted by spearhead View Post
Back to peel region. And yes, i love LRT, but again if we can afford it why not? I'm not sure though how much extra gold bullions does brampton and mississauga combined hehe but if they can fund it all the way from Lakeshore to Sandalwood prkwy atleast that would be great. Just one rail line will do it.
Again, no argument from me! Whether it becomes reality, remains to be seen!

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Now let's be realistic, can we really afford any LRT line system along hwy 10 for mississauga/brampton or just settle down with the much cheaper BRT? Come to think of this, if any BRT buses have to abide with ROW as much as what the ground-level LRT trains have to do, then it just make more sense to better off with BRT system then. Since yourself said that its not about the speed but rather its all about the service, then why not BRT? The only difference is that the Buses could only carry less passengers compared with LRV/LRT trains. BRT buses could also be run on electricity as LRT/LRV trains. They could also put additional buses for the BRT, or use those articulated buses so they could ferry more people. And if you could only watch and see how the BRT stations look with their identical automated ticketing system and all other service like what we can find from LRT system, you would love it too. So its just a matter of political will to release any available funds for either LRT or BRT, and which they can really afford without hitting hard on our taxpayer's pockets.
To be honest, I might like BRT, but I probably won't love it. Why? I'm a railfan at heart and anything on rails I have a soft spot for. I don't deny that BRT is useful and will help add to capacity in the GTA. For any regional or local transit network to be successful it will require all types of modes.
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Old April 9th, 2012, 10:00 PM   #35
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Quote:
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To say that LRT is better than subways because of traffic calming is ridiculous.
Just out of curiousity, what's your definition of traffic calming?
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Old April 9th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #36
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Same here, i am a rail fan too and i love to see more trains specially those great designed LRV/LRT trains. At the same time as you can see i was just trying to be reasonable and trying to be realistic as much as possible for the sake of this discussion.
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Old April 10th, 2012, 01:46 AM   #37
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Same here, i am a rail fan too and i love to see more trains specially those great designed LRV/LRT trains. At the same time as you can see i was just trying to be reasonable and trying to be realistic as much as possible for the sake of this discussion.
No worries! Cheers to that.

I just enjoy transit discussion with those who are open minded enough to accept both sides of the coin.
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Old April 10th, 2012, 02:41 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doady View Post
Transportfan strikes again. A lot of people in Mississauga also say "Highway 10". Why is that so hard to accept?
I know they do, but that's because people in Peel, as in the rest of the 905, have a tendancy towards the use of rural nomenclature, which no amount of urbanization has yet been able to dislodge. But it's now becoming a major urban area, so the labels should follow suit, especially by those who advocate for urbanism.

What I find so hard to accept is that people would call streets in such heavilly built-up areas highways, especially when they don't even have numbers anymore. Picture the area around Dundas: A dense area built up for half a century, quite a few pedestrians, and planned to have that most quintessential of urban transit facilities,an LRT line, running along it. How so many brains can be wired to think "highway" when seeing that escapes my comprehension.
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Old April 10th, 2012, 03:23 AM   #39
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Description of a Highway:

A main road or thoroughfare, such as a street, boulevard, or parkway, available to the public for use for travel or transportation.

A main public road, especially one connecting towns and cities.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/highway
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Old April 10th, 2012, 04:08 AM   #40
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I was born and raised in Brampton, and we always said Hwy 10.
We always called it Main Street
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