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Old January 31st, 2015, 05:16 PM   #241
BriedisUnIzlietne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
So... what should be a proper express train schedule Riga-Valga? It´s about 11 % shorter than Tallinn-Tartu, so 1:50 should be reasonable. Stops... Tallinn-Tartu has 3 outside Tallinn, and on Valga-Riga there are 3 obvious candidates. Valmiera, Cesis, Sigulda. Then maybe 1 station in Riga? Which of the 3 stations in Riga would be best placed for a stop of an express train that skips the other two? Jugla, Ciekurkalns or Zemitani?
That 121 km Valmiera-Riga is about 63 % of Tallinn-Tartu. So how would Valmiera like an express train which reaches Riga in about 1:17, with the stops aforesaid - one which originates in Estonia, makes previous stop in Valga and is not the only option because milk runs stopping at Brenguli, Bale etc. also operate?
I believe that Zemitāni would be the best option for a stop in Rīga. The other stops are very hard to get to - both are hundreds of meters from any public transport and accessible only by gravel paths
While Zemitāni is easily reachable from anywhere in the eastern part of the city.

Would 1:17 really be possible? It takes 1:25 by car and 1:55 by fastest bus (it stops only in Valmiera and Rīga). If it could be possible, then the bus would be out of competition
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Old January 31st, 2015, 11:38 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post
Would 1:17 really be possible? It takes 1:25 by car and 1:55 by fastest bus (it stops only in Valmiera and Rīga). If it could be possible, then the bus would be out of competition
Tartu-Tapa: 112,5 km, single track, unelectrified line
Expresses have 2 stops: Jõgeva and Tamsalu.
Express travel time since 17th instant: 1:11 (departing 7:29 and 8:21), 1:12 (departing 15:16), 1:15 (departing 18:06).

So, a train Valmiera-Riga with 3 stops (Cesis, Sigulda, Zemitani) should be feasible within 1:20.

Now, the milk runs do 7 more stops between Tartu and Tapa (from Kärkna to Kiltsi), total 9 intermediate stops then. Resulting travel time, again since 17th instant: 1:30 (departing 6:19), 1:32 (departing 14:20), 1:29 (departing 16:52), 1:26 (departing 19:45).

So, 7 stops add just 15 minutes, minimum to minimum.

A milk run Valmiera-Sigulda would add just 7 stops, Bale to Ligatne (with Cesis already on the express). So, how about a train that travels Valmiera-Riga in 1:35, having picked up passengers from all the stations Valmiera to Sigulda, then nonstop Sigulda to Zemitani?
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Old February 1st, 2015, 12:36 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Tartu-Tapa: 112,5 km, single track, unelectrified line
Expresses have 2 stops: Jõgeva and Tamsalu.
Express travel time since 17th instant: 1:11 (departing 7:29 and 8:21), 1:12 (departing 15:16), 1:15 (departing 18:06).

So, a train Valmiera-Riga with 3 stops (Cesis, Sigulda, Zemitani) should be feasible within 1:20.

Now, the milk runs do 7 more stops between Tartu and Tapa (from Kärkna to Kiltsi), total 9 intermediate stops then. Resulting travel time, again since 17th instant: 1:30 (departing 6:19), 1:32 (departing 14:20), 1:29 (departing 16:52), 1:26 (departing 19:45).

So, 7 stops add just 15 minutes, minimum to minimum.

A milk run Valmiera-Sigulda would add just 7 stops, Bale to Ligatne (with Cesis already on the express). So, how about a train that travels Valmiera-Riga in 1:35, having picked up passengers from all the stations Valmiera to Sigulda, then nonstop Sigulda to Zemitani?
I think it would be better, yes. But I think that the train could be ~5 minutes slower because in Rīga there are slow curves which add quite some time. And Čiekurkalns-Jugla is only 90 km/h. The rest until Valga is 100-120 km/h
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Old February 1st, 2015, 10:54 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post

And the reason is time. Yes, there is Zilupe-Rīga which allows the people of Zilupe get to work in Rīga because the train arrives in Rīga at 8:27. But how many people from Zilupe use it? It departs at 3:30!
Back to Estonia, listing early morning trains to Tallinn from distant origins:
331 Valga-Tartu leaves Valga at 6:16. After 82,5 km, 11 intermediate stops Sangaste to Aardla, arrival in Tartu 7:26
383 Koidula-Tartu leaves Koidula 6:04. After about 87 km, 16 intermediate stops Orava to Kirsi, arrival in Tartu 7:19
0011 Tartu-Tallinn leaves Tartu 7:29, as an express with the 4 intermediate stops - arrival in Tallinn 9:28. Not sure if both trains to Tartu require connection in Tartu, or if one of them continues as the express, one seat.
From Tartu, early morning train 211 originates at 6:19. After 17 intermediate stops, arrives in Tallinn at 8:49. Note that this is 31 minutes longer than the express, so that´s what the 13 stops cost.
In the other lines:
223 Narva-Tallinn originates 7:05. After 210 km and 18 intermediate stops, arrives in Tallinn 9:49
221 Rakvere-Tallinn originates 6:15 (Rakvere is also served by 223 leaving at 8:29). After about 95 km and 9 intermediate stops, arrives in Tallinn 7:35.
370 Türi-Tallinn originates 5:26. After about 95 km and 16 stops, arrives in Tallinn 7:04
042 Viljandi-Tallinn originates 6:35 and has 146 km to Tallinn. After 6 intermediate stops, leaves Türi 7:16. Then makes 8 intermediate stops between Türi and Tallinn, arrives in Tallinn 8:43
302 Pärnu-Lelle originates 6:31. After 69,5 km and 7 intermediate stops, terminates at Lelle in 7:32 and forces connection to 042 which departs Lelle at 7:37.

Um, so much about morning in Estonia, not going to suburban electric trains. But...
Say that there were an express train Tartu-Riga. Since the express train for Tallinn 7:29 and milk train 6:19 are viable, let´s make the Riga express 7:00, and of course originating.
With the demonstrated speeds of express trains, in my opinion the plausible times might be Valga 7:50, then Valmiera 8:20, Sigulda 9:05, Riga 9:40.

Would an express train arriving in Riga at 9:40 and picking up people from Valga to Sigulda 7:50 to 9:05 be any use to people of Vidzeme? It need not be the first train in the morning, if an all-stop train originates at Valga before the express comes from Tartu.
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Old February 1st, 2015, 11:18 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
331 Valga-Tartu leaves Valga at 6:16. After 82,5 km, 11 intermediate stops Sangaste to Aardla, arrival in Tartu 7:26
383 Koidula-Tartu leaves Koidula 6:04. After about 87 km, 16 intermediate stops Orava to Kirsi, arrival in Tartu 7:19
0011 Tartu-Tallinn leaves Tartu 7:29, as an express with the 4 intermediate stops - arrival in Tallinn 9:28. Not sure if both trains to Tartu require connection in Tartu, or if one of them continues as the express, one seat.
I was on that train - it's the Valga train that continues as the express.
Quote:
Um, so much about morning in Estonia, not going to suburban electric trains. But...
Say that there were an express train Tartu-Riga. Since the express train for Tallinn 7:29 and milk train 6:19 are viable, let´s make the Riga express 7:00, and of course originating.
With the demonstrated speeds of express trains, in my opinion the plausible times might be Valga 7:50, then Valmiera 8:20, Sigulda 9:05, Riga 9:40.

Would an express train arriving in Riga at 9:40 and picking up people from Valga to Sigulda 7:50 to 9:05 be any use to people of Vidzeme? It need not be the first train in the morning, if an all-stop train originates at Valga before the express comes from Tartu.
It would be a good train because currently at Sigulda the previous train leaves at 8:00 and the next at 9:57. And the Valga trains are either too early (4:55) or too late (11:24)
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Old February 1st, 2015, 11:53 AM   #246
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To summarize (most of) my previous, too detailed and long post
presenting the times of morning trains to Tallinn from origins over 100 km from Tallinn

Valga, 273 km from Tallinn: direct train, departs 6:16, arrives 9:28, trip time 3:12
Koidula, 276 km from Tallinn: 10 min connection at Tartu, departs 6:04, arrives in Tallinn 9:28, travel time 3:24
Tartu, 190 km from Tallinn: direct train, departs 6:19, arrives 8:49, trip time 2:30
Narva, 201 km from Tallinn: direct train, departs 7:05, arrives 9:49, trip time 2:44
Viljandi, 146 km from Tallinn: direct train, departs 6:35, arrives 8:43, trip time 2:08
Pärnu, 141 km from Tallinn: 5 min connection at Lelle, departs 6:31, arrives in Tallinn 8:43, travel time 2:12

So... on the Latvian side, when does first morning train leave Valmiera for Riga, when does it arrive and what is the trip time?
What is the distance Cesis-Riga by railway?
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Old February 1st, 2015, 12:15 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
So... on the Latvian side, when does first morning train leave Valmiera for Riga, when does it arrive and what is the trip time?
What is the distance Cesis-Riga by railway?
The first Valmiera-Rīga train leaves Valmiera at 5:04. It arrives in Cēsis at 5:33, Sigulda at 6:17 and Rīga at 7:29.

The second is a Valga-Rīga train which leaves Valmiera at 6:02, Cēsis at 6:32, Sigulda at 7:16 and arrives at Rīga at 8:26.

The rest of the trains are later in the day.

Cēsis - Rīga is 93 km
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Old February 1st, 2015, 12:44 PM   #248
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Looked up the numbers for second round of important stations.
Rakvere-Tallinn 103,9 km
as stated, originates 6:15, 9 intermediate stops, arrives 7:35, trip time 1:20
Tamsalu-Tallinn 92,5 km
milk run from Tartu departs 7:37, 8 intermediate stops to Tallinn, arrives 8:49, trip time 1:12
express from Tartu departs 8:28, 2 intermediate stops to Tallinn, arrives 9:28, trip time 1:00
Türi-Tallinn 98,0 km
as stated, milk run originates 5:26, 16 intermediate stops to Tallinn, arrives 7:04, trip time 1:38
as stated, express from Viljandi departs 7:16, 8 intermediate stops to Tallinn, arrives 8:43, trip time 1:27

Now, I figure that the travel times of the morning trains Cesis-Riga are 1:56 and 1:54. Even Türi-Tallinn, 98 km with 16 stops from Käru to Tallinn-Väike, does not take so long.
On the example of Tamsalu-Tallinn, an express train Cesis-Riga with 2 stops (Sigulda and Zemitani) should be doable in 1:00.
Say that the express originates from Tartu in time to be usable to leave Tartu... say 6:30, after the milk run to Tallinn that left 6:19. Then this train should leave Cesis at 8:10, Sigulda at 8:35 and arrive at Riga at 9:10.

Would 9:10 arrival in Riga be any good for the people of Sigulda, Cesis, Valmiera (departure then 7:50) and Valka (departure 7:20)?
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Old February 5th, 2015, 01:22 PM   #249
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I think that the main two reasons for rather slow average speed for LDZ locals are:
1. not very good technical capability of DR1A trains and rather big reserve time to make up the time lost when needed.
2. intensive freight traffic. To fit semi fast trains between freights, it needs great logistics and also good work from freight train drivers. The other more simple way is just give for local passenger trains same timings as they are for freights.

About Tartu - Riga service, it would be great. LDZ has shortage for disesls, GoRail in Estonia has surplus as the trains heading to Russia are empty and the Russian direction is for old people who still have some connections in Russia. Mid generation and younger people need Tallinn - Tartu - Riga service, Russian direction is pointless for most of them. Train arriving to Riaga at 9:10 or 8:50 would be useful for commuters also.
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Old February 5th, 2015, 05:47 PM   #250
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Shouldn't most cargo be running during the night?
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Old February 5th, 2015, 10:09 PM   #251
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In Latvia, no, I doubt it. Their cargo volumes are way higher than in Estonia, they couldn't manage it with running only at night. Even in Estonia there used to be plenty of daytime freight trains. Only with new passenger trains and more dense schedules have they disappeared on some lines (e.g. freight trains only run at night on Tallinn-Paldiski line).
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Old February 6th, 2015, 06:33 AM   #252
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Cargo is sent out as soon as there is enough time to get it into next stopping point after the train is ready (coupled and breaks tested). No matter day or night. In Baltics there are just some few freight trains that must follow certain schedule.
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Old February 6th, 2015, 05:34 PM   #253
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There is a schedule for freight trains as well. They don't just go whenever. You can see the schedules for Eesti Raudtee here
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Old February 7th, 2015, 05:50 AM   #254
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If the infrastructure throughput is shared then they use this graph as proof or something like that for see that every operator really has the slot's agreed. If to go lineside then can be seen that passengers and only some freights go by the schedule. Reality is that when train crosses border into Valga station for example then it continues as soon as border operations are complete, train is ready to move and the track is free to go. In Estonia there is only Tallinn - Paldiski line where freights more less follow the schedule, it is because of intensive passenger traffic. Due to more passenger traffic now, also on other directions the freights may follow the schedule given a bit more than it used to be.
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Old April 14th, 2015, 05:46 PM   #255
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=537

Estonia – Russia GoRail services to cease
Tuesday, April 14, 2015



GORAIL, the only operator of regular passenger services between Estonia and Russia, has announced it will withdraw all of its remaining cross-border services next month

The final Tallinn – St Petersburg train will depart from the Estonian capital on May 11, returning from St Petersburg the following day.

Overnight services from Tallinn to Moscow will cease on May 18, with the final Moscow – Tallinn working scheduled for May 19

...
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Old April 15th, 2015, 01:01 AM   #256
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Why is there such a decrease in travel between the countries?
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Old April 15th, 2015, 07:38 AM   #257
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Actually it has never been high, except during the Russian occupation time. Until 2013 Edelaruadtee served all national diesel services in Estonia and as GoRail belonging to the same business group with Edelaraudtee it was possible to cross subsidize the cross border trains. It is not very clear why GoRail kept running the non profitable international services heading east, some think it was because of some "dark" fuel and smoke business. And of course latest situation in Russia has it's influence on it too.

Now we need international connections to the Europe as we had before, hopefully Rail Baltica will bring some.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 06:28 PM   #258
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Does that mean that Estonia will be totally without cross-border passenger rail connection at all ? Or is there anything left ?
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Old April 15th, 2015, 07:01 PM   #259
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Eesti Raudtee, the state company which owns the railway infrastructure is hoping to reach a deal with Russian railways so that they would start operating the Tallinn-Moscow train. It would be hauled on the Estonian side with Estonian locos and Eesti Raudtee would pay the bill.

So there is still hope that Tallinn-Moscow train service will continue, although Tallinn - St. Petersburg is probably a lost cause at this point.

There is too much risk and politics involved for any private company to invest in that connection.

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Why is there such a decrease in travel between the countries?
The ruble dropped a lot in value last year which makes travelling to Europe quite expensive. The political situation also plays a role: travelling to the Baltics is not seen as a good sign in Russia.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 10:39 PM   #260
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Out of interest I checked flight and there is only one per day left between Tallinn and St Petersburg and not cheap either (cheaper is via Riga). Probably a bus or two per day as well, but all that indicates indeed that demand is very low.
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