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Old July 4th, 2015, 10:26 AM   #281
dimlys1994
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From Rail Journal:

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http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=524

RZD to introduce Russia - Estonia service
Friday, July 03, 2015



RUSSIAN Railways (RZD) has announced that it will introduce a Moscow - St Petersburg - Tallinn service from July 10 two months after Estonian operator GoRail ceased operation of its remaining Estonia - Russia cross-border trains

RZD says it is interested in introducing stable international passenger transport between Russia and Estonia through its Federal Passenger Company subsidiary.

As a result, from July 10 Train 34/33 will make its inaugural journey, departing from Moscow at 21.20, arriving in St Petersburg at 05.16, and Tallinn at 13.38, offering a journey time of 16h 18min. Services from Estonia to Russia will also commence on July 11, with the train departing Tallinn at 15.20, arriving in St Petersburg at 23.07, and Moscow at 09.32 for a journey time of 18h 12min

...
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Old July 6th, 2015, 09:30 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimlys1994 View Post
From Rail Journal:
Interesting... Although seen from a map, going over St Petersburg does not
seem to be the shortest way between Moscow and Tallinn (which would be
via Pskov). But it has the advantage of serving the two most important
destinations in Russia. Did they re-use an already existing Moscow-St Pet
night train, or is it an entirely new one ?
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Old August 17th, 2015, 08:43 AM   #283
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Old August 23rd, 2015, 10:13 AM   #284
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some recent Tallin Commuter Rail videos from Juhavnt

[Elron] commuter train from Aegviidu to Tallinn passing Pajupea tee level crossing at Lagedi.




[Elron] commuter train service Tallinn → Türi calling Lohu train halt.

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Old September 26th, 2015, 02:08 AM   #285
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What to do if you have old DMUs lying around? You rent them out, even for parties Filmed in Keila and in Kloogaranna on 25.09.2015 (not by me).

1:02 and 5:00 are the most interesting spots although the end is also worth watching.
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Old November 12th, 2015, 04:48 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Interesting... Although seen from a map, going over St Petersburg does not
seem to be the shortest way between Moscow and Tallinn (which would be
via Pskov). But it has the advantage of serving the two most important
destinations in Russia. Did they re-use an already existing Moscow-St Pet
night train, or is it an entirely new one ?
then better to introduce Moscow-St.Petersburg-Tallinn-Riga train....or even more convenint Moscow-Riga-Tallin-St.Petersburg and then back - at least it will be some REAL stuff and enough passengers to make it financially profitable...without it what I see here is a bit artificial, such short-distance routes and nearly empty trains - looks like buses would serve estonians better... same about Latvia. It is ridiculous to live in Europe and not be able to take train to Berlin or Paris or Prague or Warsow or any other place farther then your own borders (and even those bordrs are just 2 hours drive away)

Last edited by orangutangulis; November 14th, 2015 at 01:29 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2015, 08:15 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
What to do if you have old DMUs lying around? You rent them out, even for parties Filmed in Keila and in Kloogaranna on 25.09.2015 (not by me).

1:02 and 5:00 are the most interesting spots although the end is also worth watching.
At 1:00 "you mom is so fat...."
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Old November 14th, 2015, 01:14 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangutangulis View Post
then better to introduce Moscow-St.Petersburg-Tallinn-Riga train....or even more convenint Moscow-Riga-Tallin-St.Petersburg and then back - at least it will be some REAL stuff and enough passengers to make it financially profitable...without it what I see here is a bit artificial, such short-distance routes and nearly empty trains - looks like buses would serve estonians better... same about Latvia. It is ridiculous to live in Europe and not be able to take train to Berlin or Paris or Prague or Warsow or any other place farther then your own borders (and even those bordrs are just 2 hours drive)
Yeah, cross-border trains are a big issue...

But I don't think that your Moscow–Rīga–Tallinn–St.Petersburg train would work. None of these cities are on a straight line (the closest is Tallinn–St. Petersburg) so it would make these services a lot more uncompetitive compared to buses, planes or cars:


The current Tallinn–St.Petersburg–Moscow route seems about the best possibility. As for Rīga, the Rīga–Moscow and Rīga–St. Petersburg trains are united as far as Novosokolniki. The Moscow train is quite profitable and will soon have new passenger cars, but the St. Petersrburg one isn't. That's why it's for all of it's route combined with other trains.

There are no trains to Pskov. Not from Rīga, not, I think, from Tallinn and not even from St. Petersburg as of October.
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Old November 14th, 2015, 04:51 PM   #289
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The current Moscow-Tallinn train is basically a Moscow-St.Petersburg train service that has been extended to Tallinn. It's quite slow but it's the only economically viable option at the moment.

Tallinn-St.Petersburg route is dominated by buses, although a lot of tourists (of the few that are still coming) take their own car since there's only 370 km between the two cities. In comparison Tallinn-Riga is 310 km by car.

Tallinn-St.Petersburg train service was not competitive with buses in terms of travel time. Although on the Estonian side the train averaged 90+ km/h, in Russia it was below 70 km/h. If you add ca 2h of border checks it's not hard to see why it wasn't a popular service. Tourism from Russia has also declined rapidly in the past 2 years so it's no wonder there's no direct service at the moment.

Edit: You can still take the train from Tallinn to St.Petersburg but it only goes once a day and reaches St.Petersburg late at night.

Last edited by Rebasepoiss; November 14th, 2015 at 05:03 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 11:19 PM   #290
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The previous SPB-Tallinn train also had the problem, that it was not integrated into domestic services in Estonia&Russia.

In this not very densely populated area of Europe. Instead of running seperate international trains, domestic Estonian trains Tallinn-Narva operated by Elron should be extended to St. Petersburg and also be open for domestic Russian passengers to enable a fast service from Ivangorod to SPB. The same applies for Tallinn - Valga services, which could be extended to Riga (and be open for domestic trips inside Latvia).

Seperating domestic from international services is IMHO nonsense unless we are talking about city-pairs which generate a huge amount of international passenger flow (e.g. Paris - Bruxelles).
In most parts of Europe international trains are part of the domestic express train network on both sides of the border: A Budapest - Salzburg train of cousre carries domestic passengers Budapest - Györ and Vienna - Salzburg. Same applies for a Warszawa - Prague train, a Munich - Bologna train etc.
And in many cases the domestic sections of such trains even receive PSO subsidies - it's no problem at all to combine a international train with PSO-financed domestic train services.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 11:41 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
The previous SPB-Tallinn train also had the problem, that it was not integrated into domestic services in Estonia&Russia.

In this not very densely populated area of Europe. Instead of running seperate international trains, domestic Estonian trains Tallinn-Narva operated by Elron should be extended to St. Petersburg and also be open for domestic Russian passengers to enable a fast service from Ivangorod to SPB. The same applies for Tallinn - Valga services, which could be extended to Riga (and be open for domestic trips inside Latvia).
I'm not sure whether the Estonian Stadler FLIRT trains are certified to run in Russia or Latvia. They're also not very suitable for such long distances when it comes to passenger comfort. But that's beside the point. You could theoretically have other trains as well.

The main problem is subsidies. Elron is heavily subsidised by the state but international services aren't. It is theoretically allowed by EU law to subsidise international trains but there are only very few cases for that. You could still take the Tallinn-St.Petersburg train from Tallinn to Narva (when the service was still running) but the price was higher than on Elron trains.

All of this could be worked around, of course but it comes down to politics. Considering the rather cold relationships between Estonia and Russia, especially in the last 2 years, I don't see that happening.

Tallinn-Riga could probably be done politically but it's not competitive in terms of travel time. The detour for a train is roughly 150 km compared to the bus.
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Old November 16th, 2015, 05:21 PM   #292
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I think Tallinn-Rīga should be done because there are other towns on the line. I think the largest potential would be on the Rīga-Tartu part:

For example, for the people of Valmiera, it's just as close to travel to Tartu as Rīga. They could even work in Tartu and live in Valmiera like they work in Rīga! The train would also be used by Rīga's scholars on tour to Ahaa, because it's cheaper than renting a bus. Also maybe people from Tartu want to visit Sigulda. And, of course, by Tartu's students to visit their parents in Latvia.
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Old November 16th, 2015, 07:02 PM   #293
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Tartu-Riga is definitely reasonable by train even if it makes pretty much all the stops. Tartu-Valga takes 66-72 min and it shouldn't be too hard to achieve Valga-Riga in 150 min (ca 170 km) It currently takes 3h but I'm guessing that's because of reconstruction works? In that case you could reach Riga in a little more than 3,5 hours which is faster than the bus (3h 55 min).

I still doubt you could persuade a lot of people to take the train from Tallinn to Riga since the travel time would be at least 5,5 hours (4h 20 min by bus).

The question is: should you have a direct Tartu-Riga train? You could theoretically extend Tallinn-Tartu-Valga service to Riga but that would make it an international train so subsidising it would get complicated. Secondly, Elron is already lacking DMUs so running trains in Estonia is their first priority. IMO the most reasonable solution is a transfer at Valga which has been done before. At the moment the timing is off but if Latvia finishes reconstruction on their side and maybe even puts their DR1AC trains on that line it could work out.

Last edited by Rebasepoiss; November 16th, 2015 at 07:07 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2015, 08:56 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
The question is: should you have a direct Tartu-Riga train? You could theoretically extend Tallinn-Tartu-Valga service to Riga but that would make it an international train so subsidising it would get complicated.
Why?
As I wrote, in many European countries international trains are subsidized on their domestic sections. This is common practice in Austria, Czech Republic, Hungary etc. There is no European law, which prevents such.

Quote:
Secondly, Elron is already lacking DMUs so running trains in Estonia is their first priority.
If LDZ had comparable trains to the Elron-Flirt's, an Latvian train could run to Tallinn (replacing a Flirt) in cooperation with Elron...
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Old November 16th, 2015, 09:00 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Tartu-Riga is definitely reasonable by train even if it makes pretty much all the stops. Tartu-Valga takes 66-72 min and it shouldn't be too hard to achieve Valga-Riga in 150 min (ca 170 km) It currently takes 3h but I'm guessing that's because of reconstruction works? In that case you could reach Riga in a little more than 3,5 hours which is faster than the bus (3h 55 min).

I still doubt you could persuade a lot of people to take the train from Tallinn to Riga since the travel time would be at least 5,5 hours (4h 20 min by bus).

The question is: should you have a direct Tartu-Riga train? You could theoretically extend Tallinn-Tartu-Valga service to Riga but that would make it an international train so subsidising it would get complicated. Secondly, Elron is already lacking DMUs so running trains in Estonia is their first priority. IMO the most reasonable solution is a transfer at Valga which has been done before.
Look at the schedule this way:
Tallinn-Tartu, 190 km, 120 km/h by Flirt:
milk runs, 17 stops - 2:29 or 2:32
expresses, 4 stops - 2:00 to 2:07
Tartu-Valga, 83 km, 120 km/h by Flirt:
only milk runs, 11 stops - 1:06 to 1:12
Valga-Riga, 168 km
now 13 stops - 2:52.

Suppose a Flirt ran as an express?
Tartu-Valga, 1 stop at Elva - perhaps 55 minutes. 2:55 Tartu-Valga.
Then express Valga-Riga. With 3 stops (Valmiera, Cesis, Sigulda), at 120 km/h, would 1:45 be realistic?
That would be 2:40 Tartu-Riga (251 km), 4:40 Tallinn-Riga.
Any takers?
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Old November 16th, 2015, 09:09 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Tartu-Riga is definitely reasonable by train even if it makes pretty much all the stops. Tartu-Valga takes 66-72 min and it shouldn't be too hard to achieve Valga-Riga in 150 min (ca 170 km) It currently takes 3h but I'm guessing that's because of reconstruction works? In that case you could reach Riga in a little more than 3,5 hours which is faster than the bus (3h 55 min).

I still doubt you could persuade a lot of people to take the train from Tallinn to Riga since the travel time would be at least 5,5 hours (4h 20 min by bus).
Yes, due to the detour of the railway line a through Tallinn-Riga service would mainly be of use for passengers on intermediate sections (e.g. Tartu - Riga, Valmiera - Tallinn, etc).

Anyway, if the infrastructure between Tartu and Riga would be upgraded to allow 120-140 km/h top speed, then this section of 250 km should be doable in 3 hours or less (depending on the number of intermediate stops and the acceleration rate of the used trains). That would make 5 hrs from Tallinn to Riga. Still not really fast, but better than 5,5 hrs...
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Old November 16th, 2015, 10:05 PM   #297
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There's hope that by 2018 Tapa-Tartu will have a top speed of 135 km/h. There are several works being carried out to allow it but nothing has been officially said so far. It will probably decrease Tallinn-Tartu express train travel time below 2h, maybe to 1:50-55 but Tartu-Valga will still stay at 120 km/h.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Suppose a Flirt ran as an express?
Tartu-Valga, 1 stop at Elva - perhaps 55 minutes. 2:55 Tartu-Valga.
Then express Valga-Riga. With 3 stops (Valmiera, Cesis, Sigulda), at 120 km/h, would 1:45 be realistic?
That would be 2:40 Tartu-Riga (251 km), 4:40 Tallinn-Riga.
Any takers?
I doubt that Valga-Riga could be done in 1:45, probably more like 2h. That would push the travel time close to 5h. Sure, it's not that much more than the bus but a new fleet of comfortable intercity trains would be required for that. 5h in a FLIRT would be hell (and by that I mean the current Estonian FLIRT trains which are rubbish for anything longer than 1h). So what fleet could you use? Buying new trains would be pointless since Rail Baltic is on the horizon. Renting is an option but what and from where? TEP 70 and passenger cars from Russia? Still quite a big financial risk and the state definitely won't do it.

Last edited by Rebasepoiss; November 16th, 2015 at 10:11 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2015, 09:34 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Sure, it's not that much more than the bus but a new fleet of comfortable intercity trains would be required for that. 5h in a FLIRT would be hell (and by that I mean the current Estonian FLIRT trains which are rubbish for anything longer than 1h). So what fleet could you use? Buying new trains would be pointless since Rail Baltic is on the horizon.
Rail Baltic will not in any case be serving Tallinn-Viljandi, Tallinn-Tartu or Tallinn-Narva, all of which are longer than 1 h. More comfortable wide gauge trains are needed anyway... like Flirts fitted with better seats and bars.
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Old November 17th, 2015, 07:03 PM   #299
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Only Tallinn-Tartu has the chance of getting more comfortable trains, at least in the near future (next 5 years).

IMO Tallinn-Narva should also have an express line with more comfortable trains since the combined population of people living in larger towns next to the line is more or less equal to the population of Tartu.
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Old January 19th, 2016, 09:59 AM   #300
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A few nice winter videos by Youtube user Diiselrong:

Moscow - St.Petersburg - Tallinn train:


Tallinn-Narva train stopping at Nelijärve:


Tallinn-Tartu train:


A mixed freight train:
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