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Old September 9th, 2011, 03:55 PM   #221
Malyan
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Day 25-26: Arad, Romania (part II)











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Old September 9th, 2011, 03:56 PM   #222
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Old September 9th, 2011, 03:57 PM   #223
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Old September 9th, 2011, 03:58 PM   #224
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Old September 9th, 2011, 03:59 PM   #225
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Old September 9th, 2011, 07:24 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malyan View Post
BlackMarble, I think youīre getting me wrong. In fact, I liked Romania very much and think it is one of Europeīs most beautiful countries with an overwhelming nature, with beautiful medieval towns in Transilvania and a stunning architectural diversity and liveliness in Bucharest. But it is a fact that Romania is the 2nd poorest and one of the least developed countries in the European Union and that the condition of its cities is not by far comparable to anything I have seen in Poland, in Slovakia or the Czech republic. It is just what I have seen and experienced during my travel no matter what I think about it. Romania is on a pretty good way as far as I can see, but this doesnīt change the fact that it is much, much, much behind countries like the Czech republic at the moment.
I'm sorry Malyan, I'm not buying any of this.
You started with Berlin and you did not find any commie blocks to show? 80% of the East Berlin is made of these monstrosities - heck, Warsaw has even more. And yet none made it into your thread. Then we are led to believe that commie blocks on the outskirts of a shitty industrial town in the middle of nowhere are representative for Romania.

In other words the old towns in Berlin, Warsaw and Krakow are a good fit only for Central Europe but crumbling commie blocks must be the image of Romania? Gimme a break. This is stereotyping beyond belief.
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Old September 9th, 2011, 08:29 PM   #227
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@ Dondonel, now you are being ridiculous! First of all East Berlin is just one half of the city. Secondly far more than half of East Berlin consists of nearly endles blocks of late 19th century blocks. Most of those pretty disfigured during or after the war, but still. Not even 10% of Berlin consists of commieblocks... Now you are being unfair and stereotyping.

Woah...the attitude here really pisses me off. I have to blow off some steam:
If there is just crumbling huts and commieblocks to photograph in your cities/towns, it's not the photographer's problem, but actually yours! As easy as that!

And I'm sorry, Malyan.

Last edited by Tiaren; September 9th, 2011 at 08:58 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2011, 08:53 PM   #228
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From what I understand it's not about the existence of "commieblocks" but rather bad maintaince of Romanian cities in general and he already agreed with me that Romanian commies are interesting so I really don't understand why you mention them specifically. Malyan showed many rather grey commies in Warsaw btw
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Old September 9th, 2011, 09:07 PM   #229
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Dondonel, do You really think that Malyan has the intention to make Romania look bad?!?!?!
...just ridiculous
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Old September 9th, 2011, 10:00 PM   #230
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With the last photos added, I think that overall the photos are equilibrated and reflects what an unadviced tourist can see.
If you traveled in Sibiu, Cluj or Brasov, we are waiting to see pictures from these places too
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Old September 10th, 2011, 12:06 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
@ Dondonel, now you are being ridiculous! First of all East Berlin is just one half of the city. Secondly far more than half of East Berlin consists of nearly endles blocks of late 19th century blocks. Most of those pretty disfigured during or after the war, but still. Not even 10% of Berlin consists of commieblocks... Now you are being unfair and stereotyping.
really? every time I drive into Berlin I get stuck in a forest of commie blocks that's no better than what you find in Romania, might be even worse - from buckow in the south to wartenberg it is downright disgusting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Woah...the attitude here really pisses me off. I have to blow off some steam:
If there is just crumbling huts and commieblocks to photograph in your cities/towns, it's not the photographer's problem, but actually yours! As easy as that!
(
I don't give a rat's @ss about Germany or Romania - I'm neutral in this discussion, I'm American - but this sort of cherry picking does not sit well with me. I'm well introduced to the whole Eastern Europe, I've been a frequent visitor for a decade now. If TS wants to show historic cities he is welcome to do so, if he wants to show commie districts he's welcome just as well. But he cannot show the old towns from some countries and the commie [email protected] from the others. That is not objective. I just don't see how Deva got in a thread presenting Krakow, maybe someone can explain that to me.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 12:27 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by hmueller2 View Post
Dondonel, do You really think that Malyan has the intention to make Romania look bad?!?!?!
...just ridiculous
No, I don't think TS had a plan to make Romania look bad. But this is what happens when someone does not question his own prejudices. I bet he would be amazed to find out how bad Berlin workers' dormitories look to foreign eyes. He found the ugly in some random place but failed to see it in his own backyard.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 01:25 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malyan View Post
@ixpix.

Come on, thats grotesque. I surely wouldnīt have chosen to spend two weeks with travelling through the whole country if I was "biased against Romania specifically". As I already said before, I liked Romania very much and think that the country is an undiscoverd jewel and might be one of Europeīs most interesting destinations for tourism if infrastructure increases. I found Romaniaīs cities to be absolutely fascinating, and its nature is not comparable to anything in Europe except Scandinavia. I am sure that I will come back to Romania regularly to visit the parts of this diverse country I have not seen yet.

But this doesnīt change the fact that there are also dark sides of Romania, especially if youīre used to western European standards and that Romanian cities are in a really very poor condition compared not only to the West but also to other eastern European countries.

There wasnīt ANY selection of photos. In every country and city I visited, I had my camera always with me and took pictures of every area I saw. It is a fact that in all Romanian cities I visited, around 70-90% of the cityīs area looked pretty run down compared to western cities. So what do you suppose me to do - to take pictures only of the touristy 5% of the inner core of a cityīs historic centre and ignore the other 95% of the city? To draw an idealised picture of Romania that has nothing to do with what I actually experienced during my journey?

In all of my photo tours, I mainly want to show how the majority of the population really lives and how real everyday life in a city looks like. Of course, I also take pictures of historic monuments and tourist sights, both because I am very interested in art history and architecture especially and because they also belong to a city. But the few tourist sights are only one of the thousand faces of a city. Run down concrete blocks belong to the life of a city as well as a picturesque baroque church. And in my pictures, you will find both. Look at any of my previous threads and you will see that I am really trying to make a neutral documentary.

Wait for the rest of my Romania pictures and then decide whether I was focusing on the negative sides - I think my pictures are neutral and well balanced.

I haven't followed any of your previous threads so I couldn't tell how neutral you are usually. I replied because it didn't seem fair to me to single out Romania as "third world" from the rest of the Eastern European countries you've visited. I'm well aware of the dark sides of Romania and nobody asks you to ignore them, but from your first pictures of Romania you seemed to be focused on them. Later things got better, I admit that so maybe I was too quick to judge you.

I didn't mean to be hostile, in fact I'm really glad you've spent 2 weeks in Romania and you've liked it so much. I hope you'll visit Romania again and you'll have an equally good time here. And I certainly hope things will get much better in Romania till your next visit so we'll not have this kind of conversation on your next Romanian photo tour.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 01:59 PM   #234
Malyan
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@Dondonel.
Quote:
I'm sorry Malyan, I'm not buying any of this.
Man, I donīt care whether youīre "buying" this or not - I donīt think I need your permission before Iīm allowed to post my pictures

Quote:
You started with Berlin and you did not find any commie blocks to show?
Yes, youīre right - so what about these non-existing commieblocks in my pictures of Berlin...

http://www8.pic-upload.de/25.07.11/4yyinkw9v4xv.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/25.07.11/b1ejsig2f6.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/25.07.11/hwdtn2iut8h3.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/25.07.11/4qnvb6qpxs8.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/25.07.11/dmj9uhbmzfis.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/25.07.11/c662ofkijf2i.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/25.07.11/n3wnhrgp29ya.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/25.07.11/w9wkzx7p4q1s.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/26.07.11/26h1xbk5sqmu.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/27.07.11/t8ai1qhe1tl3.jpg

Quote:
80% of the East Berlin is made of these monstrosities
As I have been to Berlin more than ten times already and now the city very well, I know that this is ridiculous. 30-40% might be a more realistic figure. And, by the way, I donīt have a special problem with commieblocks at all. I even think that some of them are very interesting buildings that should be preserved and that they, at their time, were a great opportunity to offer the majority of the population modern, cheap flats.

Quote:
heck, Warsaw has even more. And yet none made it into your thread.
Hmmm, so I suppose these are baroque castles, right?

http://www8.pic-upload.de/01.09.11/t52xnfmc5c6.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/01.09.11/ycxm6lurqady.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/01.09.11/rsyaq95cr38w.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/01.09.11/b6qtpmmfcky.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/01.09.11/ln57haiipp1.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/01.09.11/3q2yccmdnl7.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/02.09.11/refrdbflede.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/02.09.11/mucctmt7ewvs.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/02.09.11/5dl7oircmj1.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/02.09.11/9xgy1gguajra.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/02.09.11/v8lt4srg5j8.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/02.09.11/2x2csa9iifbn.jpg

http://www8.pic-upload.de/02.09.11/n2et3gd8phcb.jpg

Quote:
Then we are led to believe that commie blocks on the outskirts of a shitty industrial town in the middle of nowhere are representative for Romania.
We donīt really have to discuss the fact that rundown buildings and streets are more representative for Romanian cities than for the four times wealthier Germany?

Quote:
In other words the old towns in Berlin, Warsaw and Krakow are a good fit only for Central Europe but crumbling commie blocks must be the image of Romania? Gimme a break. This is stereotyping beyond belief
Man, this thread doesnīt express ANY belief, this is not a political essay for or against any country, this is a PHOTO THREAD in which I present the places I visited during my journey
As I said before: THERE IS NO SELECTION OF PHOTOS AT ALL! Whenever I come to a city for the first time, I first visit its most important art collections and historic monuments, then I take my camera and go for a walk of several hours, and during this walk I take images of every part of the city I see. There is no selection and no political intention of any kind. It is not my fault if the streets I saw and photographed look bad in your eyes.
By the way, Berlin has nothing that could be called a pre-modern old town what you would know if you really had been to Berlin or at least seen my whole photo tour.

Quote:
really? every time I drive into Berlin I get stuck in a forest of commie blocks that's no better than what you find in Romania, might be even worse
If you really think that an average street of Berlin looks worse than an average street in four times poorer Romania, then you must mean another "Berlin" in some kind of a strange parallel universe.

Quote:
I don't give a rat's @ss about Germany or Romania - I'm neutral in this discussion
Me too. I am Austrian of Ukrainian origin. And by the way, I am anti-nationalist and donīt think in national categories at all. I donīt give a shit on the question in which country a city is situated. I feel European, not "Austrian" or "Ukrainian", and it is TOTALLY absurd to blame me for being biased against any specific country. If someone would ask for my nationality, I probably would answer that I am a citizen of the European Union.

Quote:
but this sort of cherry picking does not sit well with me.
What "sort of cherry picking" do you mean? When you look at my Berlin or Warsaw pictures - do you REALLY feel that they draw an idealised picture of these cities?

Quote:
I'm well introduced to the whole Eastern Europe
Me too. I have travelled through almost every eastern and southeastern European country for several weeks and know almost every larger city of whole Europe. So I think I am able to compare the development of European countries. And Romania is, without any doubt, the least developed European country except Bulgaria, Ukraine and Bosnia I have been to yet. It is not even by far comparable to the Baltic states, Poland or the Czech republic. But as I already said before: This doesnīt mean that I didnīt like Romania, I liked it even very much, more than almost any other eastern European country. But thatīs why I wonīt lie and draw an idealised picture of Romania that has nothing to do with what I really saw there.

Quote:
If TS wants to show historic cities he is welcome to do so, if he wants to show commie districts he's welcome just as well. But he cannot show the old towns from some countries and the commie [email protected] from the others. That is not objective.
True. But I canīt see that I would have done this. In fact, 80% of the buildings on my Berlin pics and 95% of the buildings on my Warsaw pics might show modern buildings that are younger than 150 years.

Quote:
I just don't see how Deva got in a thread presenting Krakow, maybe someone can explain that to me.
If you are able to read, you can easily see that I already HAVE explained it:

Quote:
From Krakow, I took the night train to my home city Vienna where I spent four days but took no pictures for this thread as I already have an own Vienna thread. Then I continued my journey with the night train in direction of Bucharest. I planned to leave the train in the western Romanian city of Arad to travel through the country from west to east from there but fell asleep and missed my station so that I had to leave the train at the next station - Deva, a city of 67,000 in western Transilvania. There I took the next train back to Arad, but I had to wait for more than two hours so that I could take the opportunity to take some pictures of Deva as well.
Quote:
No, I don't think TS had a plan to make Romania look bad. But this is what happens when someone does not question his own prejudices.
What exactly are my "prejudices", if I am allowed to ask, as you seem to know me better than I do myself?

Quote:
I bet he would be amazed to find out how bad Berlin workers' dormitories look to foreign eyes.
As I am not German, I donīt know what you mean with "foreign eyes"?

@Laurentzius.
Quote:
I replied because it didn't seem fair to me to single out Romania as "third world" from the rest of the Eastern European countries you've visited.
I didnīt say that Romania IS a third world country - I said that Deva somehow FELT like you were in one (Deva, not whole Romania!). And in fact, Romania still is much nearer to the third than to the first world in economic and social terms - thatīs a question of economic facts, not of your or my emotion about it. Of course, Romania has a pretty fast growing economy and will probably soon reach the development level of countries like Poland or Slovakia. But at the moment, Romania is not comparable to any central European country.

Quote:
I'm well aware of the dark sides of Romania and nobody asks you to ignore them, but from your first pictures of Romania you seemed to be focused on them
In Deva, I honestly saw absolutely nothing that could be called beautiful in the average sense of the word. But though I was fascinated by this city - it is ugly, even very ugle, of course, but it is a kind of cityscape you donīt find anywhere in western Europe, so it is really interesting.

Last edited by Malyan; September 10th, 2011 at 03:10 PM.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 02:09 PM   #235
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Day 26-27: Oradea, Romania

Oradea is one of the most important cities in northwestern Romania with a population of 204,000. It is known for its many magnificent Jugendstil buildings, much of them designed by famous Viennese architects (Oradea belonged to the Austro-Hungarian empire until WW I).











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Old September 10th, 2011, 02:10 PM   #236
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Old September 10th, 2011, 02:11 PM   #237
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Old September 10th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #238
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Old September 10th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #239
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Old September 10th, 2011, 02:13 PM   #240
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