daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture

Architecture news and discussions on all buildings types and urban spaces
» Classic Architecture | European Classic Architecture and Landscapes | Public Space | Shopping Architecture | Design & Lifestyle | Urban Renewal and Redevelopment



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Has architectural modernism failed?
Yes 190 45.13%
No 231 54.87%
Voters: 421. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 20th, 2014, 05:14 AM   #461
Cloudship
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 588
Likes (Received): 97

I think there might be some confusion with the term "Modernism" versus modern.

Modernism is an actual style. It encompasses things like the International style. mid century modern, and even Streamline Modern (what a lot of people lump ion with Art Deco). There are differing definitions depending on whether you are are talking from a formal scholarly position or a more vernacular eery-day person level, but a good way to look at it is that Modernism was a forward looking way of design based on the foundations of movement or activity and volume.

Modern architecture, as opposed to classical or traditional (which again is different from Classicism) is still around. And really, even buildings designed today with tradition facades are still technically modern. The difference here is in the approach.

Traditional architecture was basically a kit of parts - you decided what style you likes, you then took those parts which fit into your style and assembled them into a building and basically fr your rooms and life into them.

Modern architecture really starts with thinking about the spaces themselves and how they fit together, and then applying a "style" to those spaces. That is why you get the saying "Form follows function". It's not saying that form is industrial, cold, or blockish, just that the function, or space planning, comes first and drives the overall form. Even when we design a "traditional" building today, we still think about the spaces first, then apply the architectural style to those spaces, Thus, we get Neo-____ type styles.
__________________

TRTL, erbse liked this post
Cloudship no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 25th, 2014, 06:23 PM   #462
marvelfannumber1
Registered User
 
marvelfannumber1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 47
Likes (Received): 26

Well I wouldn't really say modernism has "failed", I mean it is pretty much the only thing we've been building for 50 years now so clearly it's somewhat proven the test of time (for now).

However I am just tired of it. I can't tell you how annoyed I get when I see pictures of a beautiful city landscape from before WWII, and see it slowly degenerate into what we have today. Going from awe inspiring vistas of stone and steel, to boring, corporate attempts at being 'artsy'. Look I am all for simplicity in architecture, I do after all love classical Greek and Roman buildings which do have repetetive elements.

However I feel we have gone too far with the "less is more" term. Yes, less can sometimes be more, but more can also be more, there is a very thin line between the two in my opinion.
__________________
"I don't believe that less is more. I believe that more is more.
I believe that less is less. Fat fat, thin thin, and enough is enough."

– Mark Hampton

erbse liked this post
marvelfannumber1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2014, 03:55 PM   #463
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

Ouch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
Smithfield Market redevelopment | Farringdon EC1

Architect: John McAslan & Partners

__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 11:11 AM   #464
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845



__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 11:35 AM   #465
clouchicloucha
Moderator
 
clouchicloucha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 14,454
Likes (Received): 8188

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Ouch.
What? This market is clearly fantastic you don't think?
__________________
Quant on m'dit s'il vous plaît, je dis oui!
clouchicloucha no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 11:52 AM   #466
Kopacz
Registered User
 
Kopacz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Stalowa Wola
Posts: 1,998
Likes (Received): 1599


On top of that, the glass has replaced some ugly rusty plates so it actually much nicer now.
__________________
Visit my sci-fi deviantart :) click here
Kopacz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 12:40 PM   #467
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

It is nicer than before, but that canopy is still derogating the wonderful historical market hall. Why not just adopt a new structure like ever before (with e.g. cast iron), instead of clashing in such a harmful way?
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 01:02 PM   #468
skyscraperus
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: skyscraperopolis
Posts: 1,661
Likes (Received): 2267

Has modernism failed? Yes, because isnt in harmony with nature (lines, angles, materials...)
skyscraperus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 01:39 PM   #469
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

If humans really cared about everything connecting with nature we'd live in caves and shacks made of tree branches. We certainly wouldn't use computers, by definition the most non-human things in existence. And tradition? Slavery is also a tradition which ironically was what built many historic icons.

That comic is so ironic. By that logic Gothic architecture should only be in Germany, Art Deco in France, Romanesque in Italy and Classical in Greece.

To cut out over 80 years of architecture following the greatest boom of technology and scientific progress in human history, just because you don't like lines in design, is the truly selfish thing.
__________________
Check out my band, Till I Conquer!

TowerVerre:), Suburbanist liked this post

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; August 4th, 2014 at 01:48 PM.
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 01:51 PM   #470
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845



That was funny, admittedly.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #471
steppenwolf
Registered User
 
steppenwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 1,059
Likes (Received): 282

I've just spent two weeks visiting 7 capital cities - Stockholm, Helsinki, Tallinn, Riga, Vilnius, Warsaw and Berlin.

The cities that had been preserved like museums by Unesco were utterly exhaustingly dull - exquisitely beautiful but painfully dead like a bleached coral reef, a skeleton of a real city.

Tallinn was a good example of this - beautiful but dead old town populated by tourists and locals in costumes, like a theme park. But next to it was the modernist new town - sterile, unvisited, dominated by roads and poor quality modern shapes and materials. it was more authentic but still depressing and souless.

In between was a distirct of historic warehouses interspersed with very interesting and bold modern, not modernist, architecture - it felt the most genuine and most lively area of the city.

Cities are successful when they offer a mixture, not just of styles but of uses within the buildings. The rebuilt old town of Dresden has absolutely none of the life of the city that was destroyed - it has lost all authenticity and its division of ownership, various uses and incremental change and adaptation. It is a two dimensional imitation of the real city that was once there.

The best cities evolve and change - they keep and adapt the old, they experiment and change. A lot of modernist interventions have sterlised and destroyed the fine grain, complexity of authentic cities that have grown organically, small intervention by small intervention.

Big interventions rarely succeed. Planned cities can never reproduce the qualities of a city that is built bit by bit, by individuals and small groups of people.
__________________
@peakay81

alexandru.mircea liked this post
steppenwolf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 03:28 PM   #472
skyscraperus
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: skyscraperopolis
Posts: 1,661
Likes (Received): 2267

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
By that logic Gothic architecture should only be in Germany
Why in Germany?

Originating in 12th-century France and lasting into the 16th century, Gothic architecture was known during the period as Opus Francigenum ("French work") with the term Gothic first appearing during the latter part of the Renaissance.
skyscraperus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 03:47 PM   #473
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

Indeed. But Romanesque is rooted in Germany rather than Italy, with the Carolingian Renaissance coming up at Lorsch Abbey and Aachen's Palatine Chapel & Palace. While of course that is again rooted in classical ancient architectural language (Byzantine/Roman), as most later styles were. And should be again, to some degree. It just works, in contrast to 98%+ of modernism.


@steppenwolf: Your post is thoughtful and I tend to agree that all areas of a city work better with a mixture of uses. The architecture isn't even all that important when it comes to street life, rather the size of lots and the variety of possible uses. Different urban layers add to the experience, such as cozy courtyards, arcades, roof terraces and so on.

In that way, historical preserved old towns in all their harmony shouldn't be screwed over by any more modernist experiments. They just need to get back to more authentical streetlife and real mixes. Un-disneyfication if you want. But of course tourists also need to meet some of their expectations there - while they should get surprises just as well. That's only possible when you've got real locals coming up with local ideas.

If you've ever been to a "2nd tier/medium level" old town such as Regensburg, Strasbourg, Lübeck, Bern, Edinburgh, Torino, etc... Then you'll easily notice that a perfect match of sustaining old towns and authentical street life and variety at the same time is of course possible.

And btw, 2 weeks for 7 major cities and then trying to judge is a rather... bold move. And not really meaningful.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

Last edited by erbse; August 4th, 2014 at 03:58 PM.
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 04:30 PM   #474
steppenwolf
Registered User
 
steppenwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 1,059
Likes (Received): 282

Its impossible to come to conclusions from such brief visits. It was essentially 7 'weekend' visits. But I spend a lot of time in different cities getting to know them well, and the rest of the post is based on those observations. Anyway, agree that those '2nd tier cities' have the balance about right. And also from the cities I saw, Only Tallinn seemed to have lost itself in tourism and preservation. I also thought it was quite weird and awkward that UNESCO have their teeth latched onto Warsaw old town - a new city, rebuilt so as to omit all traces of the city's capitalist heritage, a palace built in the 1970s, unable to build anything in the centre in a modern style without UNESCO threatening to resist it. I think a city stops being a lively, functioning, dynamic place if it's preserved like a museum.
__________________
@peakay81
steppenwolf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 09:42 PM   #475
Iluminat
Redsigert User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,459
Likes (Received): 4534

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
It is nicer than before, but that canopy is still derogating the wonderful historical market hall. Why not just adopt a new structure like ever before (with e.g. cast iron), instead of clashing in such a harmful way?
Either way this addition is rather "modern" than "modernist". I would like to see it in person before I judge but many people might thinkit's more interesting this way and there are some practical reason to use glass which cast much less of a shadow- something not very useful in cloudy Britannia.
Iluminat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 09:50 PM   #476
Iluminat
Redsigert User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,459
Likes (Received): 4534

Quote:
Originally Posted by steppenwolf View Post
I also thought it was quite weird and awkward that UNESCO have their teeth latched onto Warsaw old town - a new city, rebuilt so as to omit all traces of the city's capitalist heritage, a palace built in the 1970s, unable to build anything in the centre in a modern style without UNESCO threatening to resist it.
Unesco is not making any problems in Warsaw I can think of and there are lot's of modern buildings in the center of Warsaw, including skyscrapers.
Iluminat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 10:52 PM   #477
skyscraperus
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: skyscraperopolis
Posts: 1,661
Likes (Received): 2267

Why are the old buildings without properly maintenance still beautiful and modern buildings are ugly without properly maintenance? Old tradional nature materials like stone and brick are more and more beautiful with their years like wine. Modern material like glass, PVC and steel are ugly without properly maintenance.
__________________

erbse liked this post
skyscraperus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 11:00 PM   #478
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

Personally I find many old buildings ugly if they're not maintained. Many here in Romania are complete eyesores until they are renovated. They turn an ugly soot-brown colour that no detail can make nice.


Also, don't rely on Europe to get an opinion on modernist architecture, especially Eastern Europe where most buildings are in very bad shape, have hideous mismatching windows, and are covered in aircon units and satellite dishes. The US is the top place to visit to understand true modernism.
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 11:28 PM   #479
Iluminat
Redsigert User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,459
Likes (Received): 4534


Which old buildings? Most buildings until recently (XIX century or so) were made of wood and some cheaper materials like mud etc. most of them didn't survive to our times. Today we can visit many impressive castles and churches built by or for the wealthiest 1%, the construction often lasted for generations so this kind of comparisons are pretty unfair to begin with. Not to mention it's very subjective, I know many XIX century that look very ugly to me in their current condition:





etc.
__________________

Suburbanist liked this post
Iluminat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2014, 11:40 PM   #480
Geography
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 447
Likes (Received): 103

Good point, Iluminat. All surviving ancient buildings were either palaces for the richest people or religious monuments. The architecture of and for the masses was nothing special. No classicist today wants to build a log cabin or tee-pee.

Regarding your pictures, the reasons those old buildings look so bad is they are covered in soot, or the outside plaster has fallen off to expose the bricks. A fresh coat of paint and/or plaster would make them look much nicer.
Geography no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
architecture

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu