daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture

Architecture news and discussions on all buildings types and urban spaces
» Classic Architecture | European Classic Architecture and Landscapes | Public Space | Shopping Architecture | Design & Lifestyle | Urban Renewal and Redevelopment



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Has architectural modernism failed?
Yes 190 45.13%
No 231 54.87%
Voters: 421. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 24th, 2015, 09:39 PM   #561
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
In the end, people will go where the shops are, no matter the architecture. My old victorian neighbourhood in Toronto has just as much street life as the modernist office towers downtown, but nowhere near as much as the shopping district.
Of course. But a huge pedestrian density is not much of a factor when it comes to living quality, at least not in my books. Mixed quarters are generally better, you'll still always have ways to go when you want something special or work elsewhere, but chances are you'll find the basic stuff just around the corner.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 24th, 2015, 09:44 PM   #562
RPFigueiredo
The Modernist
 
RPFigueiredo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So Jos dos Campos
Posts: 1,077
Likes (Received): 621

As in Braslia's superquadras!
RPFigueiredo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2015, 10:12 PM   #563
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

pp, see two posts later
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

Last edited by erbse; January 24th, 2015 at 10:24 PM.
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2015, 10:14 PM   #564
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

Villeurbaine near Lyon was built about 10 years before the Athens Charter was written yet it looks quite similar to the style. It looks and functions quite well.






__________________

erbse, Tom 958 liked this post

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; January 24th, 2015 at 10:19 PM.
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2015, 10:23 PM   #565
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

^ It is very much Art Deco and beautifully executed, just as post-war Le Havre is in some way. In addition, it's embedded in an urban fabric. Too bad there's so few of such good examples.

Again, I'm not argueing about the monumental axis of Brasilia and Niemeyer's iconic buildings which I love, but the vast rest. Huge car infrastructures (waste), vast useless open spaces between everything (waste) and a rather strict separation of functions (waste). I'd much rather have as much interesting architecture expressing "waste" as possible (compare historicism or Art Nouveau), instead of the overall structure signalling "waste". Or compare the monumentality of Brasilia with that of Paris - citizens as well as tourists know which one they prefer.

The Superquadras might be in the first league of post-war modernist developments in Brazil, but on a global scale, I'd say they lack a truly urban scheme with a proper urban density and with consequently mixed uses (residential, shopping, offices, bars, restaurants, street life in general). Not saying none of this is existant, but the lack of density makes the places really suburban. Don't let me get started on the slums in the outskirts.

I mean, seriously. This resembles much of my 60'000 people hometown that was razed in WW2 and afterwards. But Brasilia is a place intended for millions.

Brasilia, capital of Brazil, almost 2.8 million people.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ental_5884.JPG


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...da_Asa_Sul.jpg

Neubrandenburg, provincial town in Mecklenburg/Germany, 60.000 people.

http://tinyurl.com/mu6xjk5


http://tinyurl.com/mr8l5ns


In both cases, I think modernist urban planning did huge harm to the fabric that makes a city. The lack of density and cozy places and long ways make the places lack urban vibe.
We can agree to disagree, but when I compare my town to even much smaller places around (like lovely Waren, Neustrelitz or Malchow), shit just doesn't work with modernism.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

BriedisUnIzlietne liked this post
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2015, 10:48 PM   #566
RPFigueiredo
The Modernist
 
RPFigueiredo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So Jos dos Campos
Posts: 1,077
Likes (Received): 621

Sure thing, but Braslia was planned for only 500.000!
And it was Costa's intention to keep the residential areas like that... He wanted to city to be vast and open, as the Cerrado is (where it's located).

But yeah, nobody can force you to like it, but it is important to judge it fairly... It shouldn't be repeated, but it sure is something very special, and the Unesco Heritage status proves that.

Regarding the architecture, I'm just very glad someone as Niemeyer was around to make those wonderful contributions... When I see what Macedonia has been building, it frightens me... How will history judge those new buildings built in classical styles... just terrible. They will be seen as uncreative at least! Modern grammar has nothing to do with forgetting the past and traditions, as Oscar showed us.

Last edited by RPFigueiredo; January 24th, 2015 at 11:08 PM.
RPFigueiredo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2015, 11:08 PM   #567
HURZ
Registered User
 
HURZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 33
Likes (Received): 62

A nice video depicting a lot of things modernism has mostly done wrongly:

__________________

DiogoBaptista, BriedisUnIzlietne, zmv liked this post
HURZ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2015, 11:29 PM   #568
BE0GRAD
∰f(W)dw≣∭f(r,φ,θ) drdφdθ
 
BE0GRAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Београд
Posts: 2,011
Likes (Received): 1173



Excellent video! As if it read my mind.
__________________
∭∇FdV≝∯dSF
BE0GRAD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 28th, 2015, 12:19 AM   #569
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

I disagree that everything has to 'fit in' in order to be attractive. In my opinion an attractive city has a hearty mix of all styles, shapes and sizes from as many different eras as possible. Otherwise it's like living in a museum.

A museum that only shows artworks from one style, and the pastiche that goes along with it.
__________________

New_Balto liked this post
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 28th, 2015, 01:18 PM   #570
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

On this one I agree with you ThatOneGuy. However, it's great to have various harmonious districts in homogenous styles or without too many contrasts, and it's also interesting to have districts with buffling contrasts and breaks of harmony. If you have it all, you'll have a great place with vibes. Berlin and London are very good examples imho.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 28th, 2015, 09:20 PM   #571
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

Yeah, I have no problem with a unified historic center, for the sake of having a historic center but building everything new to copy that seems artificial.

Berlin and London are great but now London is tearing down too much of its mid-century heritage, even the good examples like St Helens Tower.
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 28th, 2015, 11:25 PM   #572
BE0GRAD
∰f(W)dw≣∭f(r,φ,θ) drdφdθ
 
BE0GRAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Београд
Posts: 2,011
Likes (Received): 1173

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Yeah, I have no problem with a unified historic center, for the sake of having a historic center but building everything new to copy that seems artificial.
It isn't artificial if every city designed its own unique style of historical center. What is artificial is French castles in China per example.
__________________
∭∇FdV≝∯dSF

erbse liked this post
BE0GRAD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 28th, 2015, 11:41 PM   #573
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

It seems artificial to try and keep up the traditional regional style as if that is the only thing that should be built in a city. It sounds like something for tourists.
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 28th, 2015, 11:59 PM   #574
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

It's for the people who live and come there. Who have an identity. Who aren't egalitarian, exchangeable, globally uniform, home-less, non-rooted whatever-dontcare conformists. It's not an achievement to have the same kind of architecture everywhere, it's an achievement to have identities and local cultures who can interact with others, to grow, to fertilize new traditions and architecture. It's what makes travelling and living in different places fascinating, it's what makes human civilization.

I'm all for globalisation and the exchange of cultures, but there's something inherent in local cultures that developped for millennia and still continues when people strengthen their creativity. There are many beautifully crafted examples of "new vernacular" architecture across the planet. And mankind will continue to create and reinvent that. Even when we go out into space and settle new places. One day there might be an Antarctic or Martian architecture style, or several styles.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

Brucey7 liked this post

Last edited by erbse; January 29th, 2015 at 12:05 AM.
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2015, 12:01 AM   #575
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

It seems very limiting to the imagination to stay stuck with hundred years old styles for the sake of identity. I don't know anyone who wants new buildings to be built with 200 year old Romanian traditionalism

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; January 29th, 2015 at 12:09 AM.
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2015, 12:09 AM   #576
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

Who said that? I stated I'm opting for re-inventing vernacular styles actually, as historicism and early modern styles like Art Nouveau/Jugendstil, Expressionism and Art Deco or even Postmodernism did. I think that's far more inspiring than repeating the same 80 year old modernism over and over, and it successfully works for any art.

I think modernists should make their peace with traditionalists. There's more to gain than to lose when finding common grounds and rejuvenating architecture as a whole.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2015, 12:10 AM   #577
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

Sure, such buildings can be built but the dogma that you need to build like that to objectively have a nice city seems wrong

I wouldn't call myself a full blown modernist. I like all styles equally but I don't like it when a single style is demonized, so defense of it seems appropriate

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; January 29th, 2015 at 12:16 AM.
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2015, 12:52 AM   #578
BE0GRAD
∰f(W)dw≣∭f(r,φ,θ) drdφdθ
 
BE0GRAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Београд
Posts: 2,011
Likes (Received): 1173

There was a topic on multiculturalism on DLM couple of years ago. There is a prejudice that cultural globalisation is synonymous with creativity. However ,when you look more attentively it is the opposite as cultural globalisation almost entirely consists of merely copying something done by someone else in another place creating a false appearance of diversity on the local level that is in fact dull and unimaginative uniformity on a global level. True diversity of ideas is made by learning from various experiences around the world but deliberately implementing them differently in order to make them local and unique to your culture. That's how good ideas imported from abroad evolve into brand new local ideas that ,if good enough ,can be a role model for the entire world in their turn ,crating a continuous cycle of progress for humanity.
__________________
∭∇FdV≝∯dSF

Brucey7 liked this post
BE0GRAD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2015, 01:01 AM   #579
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,479

So all cities in the southwest US should continue building with their historic vernacular of Desert Modernism, with zig-zag roofs and space age forms. Such buildings are almost exclusively concentrated in this region, and its what the region is known for
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 29th, 2015, 01:43 PM   #580
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57845

Why these absolute statements ThatOneGuy? Sometimes it seems you're deliberately twisting other's words to make your point.

Evolving and developing local styles is a continous and very creative process, that never comes to a halt. That's why several places have several amazing local styles, which inspired other places. That's the way of diversity in architecture, even in globalised architecture. Nothing can be everywhere at the same time, and if it could that would be really boring.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
architecture

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu