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View Poll Results: Has architectural modernism failed?
Yes 190 45.13%
No 231 54.87%
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Old August 11th, 2011, 07:03 PM   #121
El_Greco
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I dont, there are some fantastic modern examples of residential architecture, theres no need for pitched roofs, doric columns and other "classical" nonsense. Its 21st century.

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Old August 11th, 2011, 09:51 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Traditional buildings are very individualistic and you hate the individual, you ought to be all up for modernism instead of attacking it for being "characterless"!
Traditional buildings are unique to their region and modernism tends to remove originality from the place it is being built. Therefore what I said here is compatible to what I've said in the topic about nationalism.

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@Beograd You are, essentially, just defending fake buildings for the sake of cheap (cheat) copying of earlier styles:


Moreover, you are depriving the citizens and business of a given city to live in places design with "foreign" inspired design/aesthetics. It is like you can't have a French villa-like development in Italy.

Never mind - and here is the flaw of your argument - that many styles, most of them, were not vernacular, homegrown developments that followed available technology developed locally only. For centuries there had been such cross-over influence.

What about Rome? Is the fact that many Roman buildings were inspired and incorporated certain elements of Greek architecture a proof that Roman buildings of 150aD are fake and thus non-representative, because they resemble Greek ones?

What about very ancient influences, like Phoenicians that dotted the Mediterranean with their colonies and, in the process, exported the seeds of the "mediterranean" style all over?

This is just an extreme proposition, like that of forbidding or limiting restaurants that sell "non local" food on the solely basis they "kill" the gastronomic identity of a place.

Totally ridiculous. Unless you agree that we should raze Roman buildings of the early republic that were inspired on Greek ones, there shall be no reason by which one can't copy, today, some style from New York or Shangai in other place.

The idea of making fake, stupid replicas of ancient styles for the mere sake of "not looking like everywhere else" is unacceptable. One city is doomed if it is betting its branding on a fake process of copying old buildings.

As for kitsch: there is no problem with kistch if those buying or renting places there like it. Governments should mess much with aesthetic styles, they should care with functionality, volume, measures... and live details like deco and fašades to developers only, with as little influence as possible, only caring that buildings are sanitized on their design, and properly finished, and safe.
I am completely against fake architecture, but it seems we have a different definition of "fake". Fake traditionalism to me is when a city builds in traditional styles that have nothing to do with its tradition. Per example when Baku builds a "french" quarter. Also I consider by fake every unsuccessful attempt of traditionalism or in other words kitsch.

If a city builds in a style that represents its history, whether we speak of complete visual imitation or some modern interpretation of the old style ,it is not fake. Actually, if we speak of modern interpretations, I would say they encourage real creativity as the architects, because of reduced options, cannot do what they do in modernism - copying form other places. In other words, because their mission is to make something that didn't exist before (modern interpretation of old architecture) they cannot simply copy solutions someone else had made somewhere else, they have to create something really new.

But I repeat, I'm not against modernism in general. I'm just for the limitation and regulation of its use.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #123
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Traditional buildings are unique to their region.
There may be some similarities, but old buildings are an epitome of individuality and that goes through all the classes, indeed you will not find two same buildings, neither in the same region nor the same country. They were built by individuals to individuals, the same individuals you so despise. Now, Modernism with its "characterless" buildings is much closer to your world-view, but I suspect you like old stuff precisely for its individuality and beauty.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 01:18 AM   #124
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I've been in that part of Amsterdam... was incredible, even somewhat surreal. Though not strictly Modernist but still how contemporary housing design ought to be done.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 07:43 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco
I dont, there are some fantastic modern examples of residential architecture, theres no need for pitched roofs, doric columns and other "classical" nonsense. Its 21st century.
this is a fantastic piece of modern architecture, but is this truely modern in the layout ? its modern by looks and facade but the layout is the same as the classic dutch areas, its classic

its interesting, as we can see modern and classic compromising each other

they dont have to go against eachother !
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Old August 12th, 2011, 07:47 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
I dont, there are some fantastic modern examples of residential architecture, theres no need for pitched roofs, doric columns and other "classical" nonsense. Its 21st century.
"Modernism" is from the early 20th century and anything but modern. Architectural styles themselves, like art, are timeless. A classical structure built today is as legitimate as anything else built today.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 08:20 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OakRidge View Post
"Modernism" is from the early 20th century and anything but modern.
Don't confuse "modern" with "contemporary".
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Old August 12th, 2011, 11:24 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoroushPersepolisi View Post
but is this truely modern in the layout ?
What layout do you need? Its the one that makes the most sense and is the most efficient, it does not make it classical.

Quote:
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A classical structure built today is as legitimate
Not its not! Why pretend its 18th century when its 21st?
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Old August 13th, 2011, 12:55 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco

What layout do you need? Its the one that makes the most sense and is the most efficient, it does not make it classical.

Not its not! Why pretend its 18th century when its 21st?
no i was saying that its the same for classical and modern, if the work and layout is good then its good regardless if its classic and modern! the two styles can compliment eachother
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Old August 13th, 2011, 12:59 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
...the same individuals you so despise.
I don't know where you got this from. Probably from nowhere. People without arguments usually try desperate attacks by insults or baseless accusations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OakRidge View Post
A classical structure built today is as legitimate as anything else built today.
Yes, but as anything else, there has to be some limitations and conditions in order for city to look and function properly. Per example, kitsch should be avoided and modern materials used in non visible parts of the building.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 04:34 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Not its not! Why pretend its 18th century when its 21st?
So one can only paint or sculpt in the most modern styles? When architects design a building in the classical style they are not pretending it is the 18th century. They, and the those financing the structure, are using the style of architecture they find the most beautiful.

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Originally Posted by BE0GRAD View Post
Yes, but as anything else, there has to be some limitations and conditions in order for city to look and function properly. Per example, kitsch should be avoided and modern materials used in non visible parts of the building.
One does not have to use "modern" materials. Stone, brick, concrete, and glass have been used for thousands of years. However, yes, steel can and is used in some of the structures I posted.
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Last edited by OakRidge; August 13th, 2011 at 04:41 AM.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 01:00 PM   #132
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I don't know where you got this from.
Nationalism thread in the DLM. Are you now saying you actually dont dislike the individual?

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So one can only paint or sculpt in the most modern styles? When architects design a building in the classical style they are not pretending it is the 18th century.
Of course they are, why else would they be doing it when all the World has embraced modern?
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Last edited by El_Greco; August 13th, 2011 at 01:06 PM.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 03:18 PM   #133
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Thos pics El Greco posted are great and show the bright side of modernism. But I have to agree that those areas look like contemporary versions of 19th century urban planning. This is also part of the reason why it works.

In most cases modernism fails to create beautiful streets and public places, that is why we should be aiming at planning our cities the old fashioned way i.e. dense areas consisting of modern townhouses and high- quality apartment buildings. There needs to be proper urban streets, alleys and public spaces.

Another thing that always bothered me is the way some people claim modernism is functional and classicism is not. In reality it┤s the very opposite. That is the reason why post-war housing estates, commie blocks and office buildings are being demolished all over the world - they don┤t work, and they never did. The traditional house/apartment building is the most functional and sensible way of building, it┤s the way people want to live.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 04:54 PM   #134
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Quote:
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Of course they are, why else would they be doing it when all the World has embraced modern?
When polls are taken in the United States of favorite architecture modernism never wins, ever. It is always the Art Deco or Classical structures that are the favorites of the masses.

And besides, when you say the "world" what do you mean? There are plenty of towns and cities in the United States where new structures are not built in modernist styles.

In the end it is all about human scale detailing. Take a look at most Classical, and Art Deco for that matter, structures. Look at how they interact with the street, with the person on the ground. The details are usually human scale. Not the huge angles and slabs of glass of modernism but small bricks and architectural sculpture.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 06:38 PM   #135
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But, at the risk of repeating myself, there is a difference between people having a personal preference for the aesthetic visuals of centuries old architecture, and the question of whether "modernism has failed". Again, people may prefer a photo of a 1931 Bugatti Royale car, but that does not necessarily lead to the conclusions that all modern cars are a failure because of that.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 10:10 PM   #136
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Then perhaps the question is whether or not modernism has succeeded.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 11:55 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Nationalism thread in the DLM. Are you now saying you actually dont dislike the individual?
I never said that I dislike the individual. You should control your imagination and improve your argumentation.

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Originally Posted by OakRidge View Post
When polls are taken in the United States of favorite architecture modernism never wins, ever. It is always the Art Deco or Classical structures that are the favorites of the masses.

And besides, when you say the "world" what do you mean? There are plenty of towns and cities in the United States where new structures are not built in modernist styles.

In the end it is all about human scale detailing. Take a look at most Classical, and Art Deco for that matter, structures. Look at how they interact with the street, with the person on the ground. The details are usually human scale. Not the huge angles and slabs of glass of modernism but small bricks and architectural sculpture.
Indeed. It is true that the traditional buildings are closer to people because of their smaller size, appeasing colors and shapes or their attention on detail. Modernist structures are mostly too simple, too big, to cold and too intimidating ... not to mention that they are completely characterless.

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But, at the risk of repeating myself, there is a difference between people having a personal preference for the aesthetic visuals of centuries old architecture, and the question of whether "modernism has failed". Again, people may prefer a photo of a 1931 Bugatti Royale car, but that does not necessarily lead to the conclusions that all modern cars are a failure because of that.
Preferences factor does play a role here, but both preferences can be respected if we regulate the areas reserved for traditional and the areas reserved for modern architecture. Their mixing shouldn't be completely forbidden as there are rare examples where modern building fits well in traditional surroundings but too much mixing destroys the character of the city and in some way creates only architectural chaos.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 12:28 AM   #138
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I never said that I dislike the individual. You should control your imagination and improve your argumentation.
Of course you do.

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Also... nationalism/patriotism , as I've said earlier, encourages people to be less egoistic and to make voluntary sacrifices for the good of their nation/country. Multiculturalism suppresses nationalism as a form of collectivism encouraging individualism and therefore egoism.?
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Multiculturalism = selfishness as it encourages cultural atomism and loyalty to no one (as Blogen_ has said on the first page) and therefore individualism and selfishness as people are no longer encouraged to make voluntary sacrifices for the good of the nation/country.
So basically what we have here, is good old hypocrisy. You hate the individual but like old architecture for...wait for it....its individuality!
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Old August 16th, 2011, 12:56 AM   #139
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Nationalism thread in the DLM. Are you now saying you actually dont dislike the individual?
I never said I dislike the individual. Nationalism thread or in any other. You really need to calm down your imagination.
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Old August 19th, 2011, 08:16 PM   #140
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There is no doubt about it. However, there is a big divide that separates modernism from all previous pre-modern styles. Despite all the different stylistic and aesthetical choices, pre-modern architecture - be it ancient Greek, Roman, Persian, Gothic, neoclassical, even art nouveau - relies on some sort of structured complexity. Modern buildings are completely devoid of this.

Now, as this structured complexity is something that is found everywhere in nature (see the fractal structure of a tree and its branches, for instance) I, as a neurobiologist, am convinced that our brains are hard-wired to look for such patterns in our environment. The presence of such patterns is "neurologically nourishing" while their absence is stressful.

Professor Nikos Salingaros of the University of Texas / San Antonio is one of the main proponents of this view, and he has given me the honour of asking me to write the introduction in one of his books. I think it is highly relevant to this discussion:

http://books.google.gr/books?id=i2Kr...ngaros&f=false
I would not say that it is "structured complexity". Classical greek art aimed for simplicity, elegance, and a sense of balance. Baroque aimed for a sense of movement, and does not necessarily rely on profuse ornament.

The "structured complexity" that you refer to here is mostly incidental or on the surface. The fundamentals certainly do not rely on ornament.
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