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Old August 20th, 2011, 03:23 AM   #21
kingsway
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the poorest area in metroLondon maybe
but at least it's better to live there than in the streets.
I believe that there is always a poor area in every city in the world.
anyone disagree?
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Old August 20th, 2011, 07:37 PM   #22
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It's refreshing to see different aspects of London- thanks for posting
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Old August 31st, 2011, 08:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by skymantle View Post
Anyway, thanks for showing the 'real' London, the places where a vast majority of people live.
Er where do you get your information that the vast majority live in these housing estates? I would say you are a long way off on that hunch. Most of london's housing stock is speculative terraced housing from the late 19th century.

I should also point out that some of the "housing estates" in that series of photos are in fact high quality apartments (some of them high end), which command high rent prices, especially the Barbican.

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Old August 31st, 2011, 08:22 PM   #24
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guet gmacht, Tony


nice to see the other side of london; due to my family i couldn´t visit the (outer) commieblock areas as you did

you ever felt unsafe walking around in the suburbs ?
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Old August 31st, 2011, 09:14 PM   #25
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In Scandinavian countries, they wouldn't do that because there is no need. It's not a difference in culture - it's just a difference in society. They don't have such a disparity between rich and poor. Norway, Sweden and Denmark did not try to follow the US model of Reaganomics. As a result, they are more stable and people are less likely to riot out of sheer desperation.

It is sad; what the UK has become. I will never return, unless that country can become less American and more socially democratic and less Euro-skeptic (another thing that pisses me off about Britain, the anti-EU sentiment).
While I agree with that, something really puzzles me : you fled the UK to escape its antisocial and inhuman politics, and you chose America as an exile, which is basically the worst the developed world has to offer.

A clarification could help
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Old August 31st, 2011, 10:23 PM   #26
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Ok, I agree. But as an admirer of Scandinavian culture, I would have liked to have seen my home country evolve that way. I fully agree with you that those who perpetrated the riots are as much "victims" of those whose property they destroyed, sorry to say (and I'm sure my political and social beliefs will offend many). We all joke about "chavs", but these people are just a product of a failed society, marginalised and lost. It's easy to make them out to be just evil, but it's not so easy to try to understand and show empathy. Of course, I do not condone their actions, but I understand why.

In Scandinavian countries, they wouldn't do that because there is no need. It's not a difference in culture - it's just a difference in society. They don't have such a disparity between rich and poor. Norway, Sweden and Denmark did not try to follow the US model of Reaganomics. As a result, they are more stable and people are less likely to riot out of sheer desperation.

It is sad; what the UK has become. I will never return, unless that country can become less American and more socially democratic and less Euro-skeptic (another thing that pisses me off about Britain, the anti-EU sentiment).
There is much in what you say, but honestly I doubt that Florida is any better, why not pick New Zealand or Nova Scotia?

As somebody said, these are not all poor housing estates, some are expensive and desireable. Nor does this represent the reality of housing for most Londoners, let alone most of the country where such developments are atypical. The lifestyle and environment depicted here is probably quite alien to most British people, the problems in these places need to be addressed of course but they are specific problems rather than general ones imo, at least in degree.

The 80s Thatcherism certainly accentuated the rich-poor problem but it has always existed in the UK. These developments mostly date from the late 50s to early 70s, long before Thatcher was working her magic on our communities and it was a labour government in the late 70s that brought in the laws which led to the end of socially mixed public housing and led to ghettoisation.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 02:30 PM   #27
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guet gmacht, Tony


nice to see the other side of london; due to my family i couldn´t visit the (outer) commieblock areas as you did

you ever felt unsafe walking around in the suburbs ?
Hey thanks

Anyway, walking casually with a friend is normal, no fright, but it does get a bit un-easy when you're going through mainly abbandoned areas with a camera by yourself.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 01:34 PM   #28
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wow, thanks for the London grit, real East End/ South of the river stuff there. To be fair alot of those estates in the first post are due for demolition (hence why so empty, boarded up, missing windows etc), and the majority of Londoners however don't live there as someone mentioned, theyre the poor areas.

Also due to the housing market many of these ex-council estates have been slowly colonised by the middle classes. The brutalist Barbican ones go for $1-2 million due to they're proximity to the financial district.
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Old September 6th, 2011, 12:13 AM   #29
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London is a wonderful city and the UK is a great country, but I agree with your analysis, even as a Brit in exile. Britain should have evolved to become more like the Scandinavian countries; a middle income nation with strong social services, money invested in education and infrastructure. Unfortunately, Maggie Thatcher and her Tory government ****ed that up and that's what started the decline. As a child of the 80's, I remember it well. They cut funding for education, healthcare, sold off public services and planted the seeds of social degradation in Britain by trying to implement American Reaganomics on what is deep down, a socialist country. It's sad to see my former home go downhill so badly, to tell you the truth. The fact that we looked "stateside" for social and economic models was our major mistake. The UK is a northern European country and (population wise) should be like a giant version of Norway, Sweden or Denmark (because culturally, the UK and Scandinavia are very much alike). IF it ever manages to evolve that way, I will be the first to move back to my home, otherwise, I will remain in exile.
I doubt that would have worked. Scandinavian countries' policies only worked because they are essentially tiny little backwaters that only urbanised relatively recently and are sparsely populated. The UK has more than the population of all Nordic countries combined. They are also culturally monogamous and with little class divide: they basically skipped the Imperial and corresponding Industrial age, going straight from backwardness to brief industrialisation under the Swedish/Danish empires to service and information within living memory almost. We didn't have that opportunity, having been a masisively industrialised country with huge class divides and immigration from all corners of the world for two hundred years before the information age even began. We might have managed the transition a little differently but it will take nothing short of a revolution to bring real change.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 06:04 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by kingsway View Post
the poorest area in metroLondon maybe
but at least it's better to live there than in the streets.
I believe that there is always a poor area in every city in the world.
anyone disagree?
Of course there are poor areas in all cities - I guess it is just the balance between comfortable suburbs and grand city centre homes and the other more blighted neighbourhoods, that varies between different cities.

The images that people have of different cities are often skewed in one particular direction - for better or for worse. The international image of London is very much based on the city centre touristic core, galleries, parliament, the royal family etc; but as anyone who lives or has lived there knows - it is a city of huge contrasts between, often, obscene wealth, and of dire poverty, misery and alienation. A ridiculously expensive city to live in.

My city, Liverpool, on the otherhand, has suffered from negative stereotypes and imagery - but when people actually get here, they see what a liveable and attractive city it really is. Of course, there are large parts of the city which suffer from generational unemployment and urban blight - but there are also large areas of leafy pleasantness.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 08:04 PM   #31
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Also due to the housing market many of these ex-council estates have been slowly colonised by the middle classes. The brutalist Barbican ones go for $1-2 million due to they're proximity to the financial district.
you made some good points and i'd go further by saying that if you're referring to the barbican thats not the only reason they go for such a price.. and they were not colonised by middle classes.. it was middle class from the beginning.. the estate was designed for city workers, not for working classes, and the flats are highly serviced (valets etc) and at a fairly luxurious standard (at the time - I'm sure many are out of date and need refurbishing). then there are the huge integrated arts centre and gardens which attract people for culture/leisure reasons. i read somewhere that the barbican estate is one of the safest places in europe, its really a kind of exact opposite of your stereotypical british housing estate.

also while it (the barbican) may look brutal (and brutalist), do not be deceived. the spec was of very high standard and the build was extremely expensive (some Ł500million I believe). the concrete texture for instance is all executed by hand with a bush-hammer technique. then if you look at the interior fittings you'll find a lot of hardwood, brass etc etc

Last edited by PadArch; September 19th, 2011 at 08:11 PM.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 08:31 PM   #32
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I doubt that would have worked.
Just like Voltaire claimed that France could (and should) never be a republic. This is just something people say in deffence, yet there is nothing to support this theory. Thatcher and her economic policy really ****ed up the country. Sure the UK had not done very well before that, but Thatcher really did destroy the welfare system that had taken a century to build. Britain could easily be more like other European countries but as it is Britain will end up more like America which means poor health care, education, poverty crime etc.

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Scandinavian countries' policies only worked because they are essentially tiny little backwaters that only urbanised relatively recently and are sparsely populated.
That is simply not true. And what do you mean by backwaters?

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Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
They are also culturally monogamous and with little class divide:
Indeed. And why do you think that is the case?

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Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
they basically skipped the Imperial and corresponding Industrial age, going straight from backwardness to brief industrialisation under the Swedish/Danish empires to service and information within living memory almost.
The Noridc countries were industrialized, there were factories and working class districs in our cities. A century ago Finland was basically a third world country, now its among the most prosperous in the world.

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We didn't have that opportunity, having been a masisively industrialised country with huge class divides and immigration from all corners of the world for two hundred years before the information age even began. We might have managed the transition a little differently but it will take nothing short of a revolution to bring real change.
Of course you had the opportunity! The decline of Britain already started in the late 1800s, when the country failed to modernize. Britain could be more like Germany, a nation that has been to hell and back twice not very long ago, divided in two, seen its cities turn to rubble. Germany is a country that has seen its infrastructure demolished and industry destroyed yet Hamburg is still one of the welathiest cities in Europe and its port among the largest in the world, while Liverpool has lost half its population and has gone into terrible decline. And this is a city that used to be the second city of the Empire! In addition there is still heavy industry in Germany and the country is (or atleast was until recently) the world's largest exporter of goods.

Britain needs to realize that it is a European country and should learn a lesson from the socialdemocratic countries of the continent.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 08:00 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
I doubt that would have worked. Scandinavian countries' policies only worked because they are essentially tiny little backwaters that only urbanised relatively recently and are sparsely populated. The UK has more than the population of all Nordic countries combined. They are also culturally monogamous and with little class divide: they basically skipped the Imperial and corresponding Industrial age, going straight from backwardness to brief industrialisation under the Swedish/Danish empires to service and information within living memory almost. We didn't have that opportunity, having been a masisively industrialised country with huge class divides and immigration from all corners of the world for two hundred years before the information age even began. We might have managed the transition a little differently but it will take nothing short of a revolution to bring real change.
Well said. The historical context is really important.

Have to say one positive thing about the pictures, at least for me: Strata looks a lot nicer closer up than it tends to do from a distance . . . !!
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Old September 20th, 2011, 09:59 AM   #34
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I doubt that would have worked. Scandinavian countries' policies only worked because they are essentially tiny little backwaters that only urbanised relatively recently and are sparsely populated.
Urbanised only recently? That's false. Have a look at the historical urban fabric of the major cities and you will see solid, sophisticated, stately buildings, not indivative of a backwater.

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Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
The UK has more than the population of all Nordic countries combined. They are also culturally monogamous and with little class divide: they basically skipped the Imperial and corresponding Industrial age, going straight from backwardness to brief industrialisation under the Swedish/Danish empires to service and information within living memory almost.
Again, mostly false. They are not culturally homogenous, especially today and their is a class divide, but not so pronounced as other places in the world, including Britain. Don't forget there still exists a monarchy/nobility class like the UK and there are many migrants who (mostly) are not as well-off as the middle class and live in suitable, but certainly not flashy housing estates. Also, in the 19th century abject poverty and related social ills got so bad that Scandinavians were compelled on a massive migration drive to North America and elsewhere around the globe, in particular they chose the mid-west of the USA to settle and you only have to look at the demographics of these places to confirm that. Realizing the catastrophe and loss of people, this is when they started to seriously think and formulate social welfare policies to prevent this from continuing and happening again, and after the fallout of WWII even better thought-out social policies were implemented.

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Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
We didn't have that opportunity, having been a masisively industrialised country with huge class divides and immigration from all corners of the world for two hundred years before the information age even began. We might have managed the transition a little differently but it will take nothing short of a revolution to bring real change.
Mass migration, apart from nearby Ireland, occured in Britain mainly after WWII and Britain had more than enough chances to apply a Scandinavian type social welfare model, or even a continental type one, such as in Holland or Germany, but it chose to go down the overtly pro-capitalist road, under pressure from the powerful establishment who felt that their local and global wealth and influence (colonialist mentality) would be undermined and insignificantly restricted to a region of Europe. Thatcher reinforced the class divide and set about making policies which have resulted in the disparity you see in Britain today.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 10:01 AM   #35
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more pics please.....thanks.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 11:53 PM   #36
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thanks for this interesting perspective. I love every last aspect of London
here is my shot I made walking along the Regents Canal toward east (sorry if it's not welcome to post pics here):
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Old September 22nd, 2011, 03:02 PM   #37
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weird thread for me personally, you mixed crap things, with for example Bigben.
i would see more crap London places
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Old September 23rd, 2011, 03:10 AM   #38
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Nice pics, especially the street pics!
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Old November 24th, 2011, 03:30 AM   #39
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I loved this pictures just because of the reason you said we might not like them: they're natural. Beautiful.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 04:21 AM   #40
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I also agree with your analysis here, except that Britain is not a Northern European nation similar to Scandinavian countries. Britain is a western European nation culturally and in mentality. The Scandi psyche differs greatly from the British, even before Thatcherite policies.

On another note, it was unbelievable to see accused rioters receiving prison sentences for four years etc. It's like the powerful establishment coming down real hard on the marginalised and down trodden, like we'll show you whose boss, and really this just creates more deep-seated resentment and anti-social behaviour. Not the answer, in Scandi countries they'd never do that, another example of the vastly different mentality between Britain and Scandinavia. Britain can expect more social turmoil in the not too distant future, I'd hate to say.
iv never heard such left wing shite in my life!!! the "rioters" deserved everything that was coming at them. opportunist people from all walks of life being mindless thugs! i hope they all serve full jail terms!! ps i earn minimum wage but i dont riot!!
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