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Old December 25th, 2011, 08:12 PM   #201
Satyricon84
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Originally Posted by MajKeR_ View Post
And what I've seen in whole Italy, from Udine area to south: if you want drive slow - you're keeping right lane, faster - central one, more faster - left. Drivers keep safety interspaces, where you can drive in, if you need - but then you should reduce your speed. Traffic jams? Only on busy interchanges and - what a pity! - toll plazas.
Which Italy are you talking about? Cause in this Italy, too many people still didn't lose the vice to drive slow in the central lane when there are 3 lanes, even if the right lane is free....
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Old December 25th, 2011, 08:14 PM   #202
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You may not place a new "iron curtain", which would be able to stop their invasion for "West".

Maybe not, and I've been in Poland a lot myself lately. However, isn't it time that Poles stay within their own borders, and build their economy - like the Polish government wants them to do - rather then going to places like Britain and Holland - where they keep on undercutting local busineses? Especially in the haulage trade Poles are becoming a major nightmare - as they have no driving skills, they are just cheap - and no proper training. A Dutch lorry driver has to go to school for two years - Poles get their HGV licence by driving around the block a few turns. This resulted in motorway blockades by Dutch truckers two weeks ago. They are sick to the teeth by these people.

And they are known to be bad drivers. It's not a stereotype thing - you can ask any cop in Britain, Germany and Holland.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Which Italy are you talking about? Cause in this Italy, too many people still didn't lose the vice to drive slow in the central lane when there are 3 lanes, even if the right lane is free....
True. But they are learning slowly.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #204
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I know that there are a lot of such drivers, especially on quite empty streches, but from quite busy autostradas I remember lots of drivers, who were keeping middle or left lane sensibly (and somewhat forced each other to such driving style).
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Old December 25th, 2011, 08:24 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by MajKeR_ View Post
I know that there are a lot of such drivers, especially on quite empty streches, but from quite busy autostradas I remember lots of drivers, who were keeping middle or left lane sensibly (and somewhat forced each other to such driving style).
You haven't been in Italy very often, have you? Or you are one of them who don't stick to the keep right unless overtaking rule. You NEVER keep to the middle lane EVER. The middle lane is an overtaking lane as well!
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Old December 25th, 2011, 08:24 PM   #206
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This happen in Italy too, transport companies hires eastern drivers cause they are lowpayed and as result many italian drivers lose the work... in Italy a drive license for trucks costs around 3000/4000 €
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Old December 25th, 2011, 08:55 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I probably get a lot of comments now from Poles, who believe they are great drivers - the same ones who think that Germany is the best country to drive in, and that the A4 in Poland is God's Own gift to the Polish people.
You must be young
Not sure what do you mean by God's Own gift.
About 1st and 2nd statements I ensure you're completely wrong. The stereotype about Super German Autobahns have been replaced by Not So Super German Autobahns and the truth lies between those two.

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Old December 25th, 2011, 08:56 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
True. But they are learning slowly.
Just cause the fine is high and you lose points on the drive license, otherwise people would still continue to drive on the central lane....
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Old December 25th, 2011, 09:07 PM   #209
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(...) However, isn't it time that Poles stay within their own borders, and build their economy - like the Polish government wants them to do - rather then going to places like Britain and Holland - where they keep on undercutting local busineses?
Well, they're now free to choose where they want to sell their skills, in view of seeking for the best in their own personal interest.

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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Especially in the haulage trade Poles are becoming a major nightmare - as they have no driving skills, they are just cheap - and no proper training. A Dutch lorry driver has to go to school for two years - Poles get their HGV licence by driving around the block a few turns. This resulted in motorway blockades by Dutch truckers two weeks ago. They are sick to the teeth by these people.
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
This happen in Italy too, transport companies hires eastern drivers cause they are lowpayed and as result many italian drivers lose the work... in Italy a drive license for trucks costs around 3000/4000 €
That sounds like a healthy competition in global environment. You'd better get used to it. And if Poles et cie were such bad drivers, as Road_UK claims, I suppose they wouldn't be kept in employment by their companies, would they?

Anyway, I'd say the points raised by you are a different area to discuss altogether and we should stay on the topic of this thread.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 09:14 PM   #210
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That sounds like a healthy competition in global environment. You'd better get used to it. And if Poles et cie were such bad drivers, as Road_UK claims, I suppose they wouldn't be kept in employment by their companies, would they?
I don't see anything healthy in this, just the polish pockets will be healthy while the local economy get ill... about driving skills I don't know, bad and good drivers are everywhere, it's a generalization which brings to nowhere
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Old December 25th, 2011, 09:35 PM   #211
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Then why does your user title say: conducteur infatigable ?
You're so right ! Now that I'm getting older, I should write "conducteur PRESQUE infatigable !" My of driving without stopping to sleep was over 1800 in 23 hours ! & I did similar distances like this. But it's not reasonable at all. Last time I did it before this summer (1400km in 14 hours - I had no choice) was in 2005. I wouldn't advice anyone to do it.

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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Another disadvantage in Germany: Since they've opened the borders up with Eastern Europe, Eastern Europeans clog up the autobahns with their often bad driving skills. No offence intended - but Slovakians, Romanians, Poles and Czechs haven't got a clue on how to use a motorway properly, especially not in Germany, where it is of vital importance to keep to the FAR right unless overtaking. I saw it again at 7 in the morning today - a quiet Christmas morning on the A8 between Rosenheim and Munich. And who are hogging the middle lane? A couple of Poles and Romanians (and one Austrian with a KB - Kitzbuhel plate. But within Tyrol, they are known to be bad drivers.) I probably get a lot of comments now from Poles, who believe they are great drivers - the same ones who think that Germany is the best country to drive in, and that the A4 in Poland is God's Own gift to the Polish people.

Bad influence to the Germans as well. In the old days, they used to drive fast but disciplined. These days, a lot of them are making the same mistakes, to which they were blaming the Dutch decades ago, who do have rather good lane discipline today.
Road_UK - No offence, man. But if you drive your van pressuring people to ”get the hell out of [your] way”, your perception may be different than mine. Maybe that’s why you love driving here ! as such situations happen often.

I have rarely met Poles without lane discipline on German motorways. On this matter, they made a huge progress since the beginning of the 2000s decade (maybe due to the fact that track forming on Polish 2x2 roads started to slowly disappear). BUT they drive much too slowly (sometimes 100-110 km/h on an unlimited section ! Are they saving fuel or are they afraid of the German Polizei ?). I haven’t had such problems with Czechs, Hungarians or Romanians either. But I had such problems with Dutch, French (although less often since 2005), Slovak and Lithuanian drivers. So I can’t fully agree with you. There is no such thing like an “East-West driving division”

Moreover, contrary to what you wrote on the British motorways thread, I didn’t have any major problem with lane discipline in the UK !

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajKeR_ View Post
Road_UK - it would be hard to overthrow your mind, so I won't try. It's just a stereotype, which works in your head. But from the other side: why are you still complaining and inventing new things, which perhaps make you angry for these evil and stupid Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Romanians and other habitants of "Eastern Europe"? Calm down, because by such texts you're only irritating these poor people and yourself. You may not place a new "iron curtain", which would be able to stop their invasion for "West".

(...)
+1 !

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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Maybe not, and I've been in Poland a lot myself lately. However, isn't it time that Poles stay within their own borders, and build their economy - like the Polish government wants them to do - rather then going to places like Britain and Holland - where they keep on undercutting local busineses? Especially in the haulage trade Poles are becoming a major nightmare - as they have no driving skills, they are just cheap - and no proper training. A Dutch lorry driver has to go to school for two years - Poles get their HGV licence by driving around the block a few turns. This resulted in motorway blockades by Dutch truckers two weeks ago. They are sick to the teeth by these people.

(...) [/I]
Que nenni ! You may have been to Poland lately, but you're not at all aware of the enormous changes since 2003-2004 ! Try to get a lorry driver license like you described above and people will laugh at you ! Even the police is not anymore easy to corrupt ! When I look at your posts on such matters, I've got the feeling I'm reading the news like 10 (if not 15 years) backwards !

I can't judge from Dutch or British policemen, but here in France, cops treat Poles nicely & their reputation is not bad

P.S.: Looks like you really hate Poles & people from Central & Eastern Europe ! You should really control yourself and ask yourself the right questions ! From what you wrote above, it is clear that the fact that if “isn't it time that Poles stay within their own borders, and build their economy - like the Polish government wants them to do - rather then going to places like Britain and Holland - where they keep on undercutting local busineses?” is much more an advantage to Brits and the Dutch than for Poland ! See it this way ! Think positive !

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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
You haven't been in Italy very often, have you? Or you are one of them who don't stick to the keep right unless overtaking rule. You NEVER keep to the middle lane EVER. The middle lane is an overtaking lane as well!
Tell it to my fellow Frenchies !

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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
I don't see anything healthy in this, just the polish pockets will be healthy while the local economy get ill... about driving skills I don't know, bad and good drivers are everywhere, it's a generalization which brings to nowhere
Their pockets won’t be that healthy as they can’t stay home in their countries ! & in return they have a bunch of Ukrainian, Belarusian & Baltic drivers ! Here in France, most lorries I see are Polish, Portuguese, Spanish, Czech, Romanian or Bulgarian. & we got used to it !
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"Richtgeschwindigkeit" should be the default system in all EU motorways & expressways & lane indiscipline should be harshly fought! Down with radars on motorways!
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Old December 25th, 2011, 09:46 PM   #212
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How can job losses be an advantage? And I can easily see you don't travel around Europe as much as I do. I do it for a living.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 09:54 PM   #213
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Their pockets won’t be that healthy as they can’t stay home in their countries ! & in return they have a bunch of Ukrainian, Belarusian & Baltic drivers ! Here in France, most lorries I see are Polish, Portuguese, Spanish, Czech, Romanian or Bulgarian. & we got used to it !
That's no need to stay at home, as long as they send money there... here is full of easterns, north african and south americans which work underpayed and then send money to their homecountry. 800€ in Italy aren't the same 800€ that you can use in Bulgaria, Morocco or Ecuador....
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Old December 25th, 2011, 09:55 PM   #214
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Road_UK - I think you don't understood me very well. I was talking only about overtaking style on busy motorway; German - fast and tiring - makes me angry, and I think Italian - calm and predictable - is better. I've told keeping right always while it's possible might be not compulsory for me, because of the comfort and safety - but I haven't told that you may keep what lane would you like through many kilometers. As I think, it's difference between empty road, where somebody overtakes you once for a few minutes (then you should keeping right, of course if you are overtaking somebody you have to do some interspace, while you change the lane), and busy one, when you're often overtook by long series of cars and you overtake a few for one time.

It's well to know about truck drivers, but I haven't told about them earlier - I meant car drivers. However, I think getting driving license in Poland is a little bit harder that you're telling and will be more harder in next years. Maybe Polish truckers are salt in eye for Western ones, but guilt for this situation isn't only on Polish drivers's hands - why Westerns need more money for well existing (so why prices in Western Europe are as high) and why EU Commision doesn't do anything to make getting driving license the same hard in whole EU?

There is Polish proverb - punkt widzenia zależy od punktu siedzenia - "point of view depends on point of sitting". Polish driving style is different than "Western", so in Germany, Netherlands or Britain they think it's bad; but in Italy or France, where driving behaviors are more similar to Polish, people haven't such problems.
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Kiedy padł ten pierwszy strzał, Kosteczku, to wszystko się zaczęło, zaczęli strzelać ci grenszuce, których chłopcy jeszcze nie zdążyli rozbroić, i zaczęli strzelać ci chłopcy, którzy już mieli jakieś karabiny albo nulachty, i posypało się trochę strzałów. Słyszałeś krzyki:
- Erich dostoł! - i do dziś nie wiesz, czy to krzyczał grenszuc, czy powstaniec.
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Last edited by MajKeR_; December 26th, 2011 at 01:31 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 10:06 PM   #215
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I see your point and I have nothing against Eastern Europeans. Some of my best friends are Poles and my girlfriend is Russian. But it's very important to stick to inside lanes only unless overtaking, especially for safety and traffic flow, even on busy stretches of motorway.

I also have to point out to you, that driving in Italy is far more agressive then Germany. Dangerous overtaking, and tailgathing with lights flashing are far more common in Italy then in Germany, where general safety distance is regarded as normal. Only youngsters will stick up your ass in Germany, and they are unlikely to keep a drivers licence for a very long time, as police are on to them like a ton of bricks. In Italy, the Distanza di Securezza rule is mostly regarded as an interesting suggestion.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 10:21 PM   #216
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Quite hard to compare - in the case of traffic flow - Germany which is smaller than France and has around 20million more inhabitants.
This has virtually nothing to do with the traffic culture.

I do not quite understand what the population density has to to with this case. A more proper metric to assess the motorway congestion would be 'inhabitants per km of motorway'. In terms of this metric, France and Germany are well close to each other.

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Moreover, it’s not true that Germans turn mad at the motorway sign.
Unfortunately, it is true. They do not only turn mad, but very aggressive. For example, tailgating at 200 kph with the distance of five metres is nothing else than true madnesss. That sort of behaviour can be seen very frequently.

The unlimited speed and the frequency of traffic shocks seem to correlate very well. In one moment, the traffic flows 160 kph and after a few seconds 60 kph, making the traffic very stressing for most drivers. The case Germany rather clearly shows that very big variations of the speed across the vehicles make the traffic flow unstable, causing the average speed to drop below the peer countries.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 10:45 PM   #217
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I am direct answering the question from the title ot this thread: Croatia. For me this country has the best conditions for motorwaydriving from the states I've been in. Development state of the network, quality of the motorways, safety level and traffic intensity got there the optimal balance.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 11:04 PM   #218
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Sweden is nice overall:
* AADT is rarely over 20,000 on rural motorways
* Pretty relaxed driving culture
* Good network for the population density

Some "complaints" of mine:
* Several gaps still remaining
* 110 km/h is very slow
* Long monotonous stretches through forests
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Old December 25th, 2011, 11:49 PM   #219
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[B]

1. Poland (I have only driven on A4 [Wroclaw - Krakow], A6 [Szczecin - German border] and S3 [Szczecin - Gorzow]. I dont really know if S3 is a motorway, due to the different name but when i drove on that road, it had the same shape as a motorway. No tolls, just only between Katowice and Krakow on the A4. Very nice view on A6. All of them are comfortable. Most modern motorways in Europe. I believe).
A - Autostrada - motorway
S- Droga Ekspresowa - expressway

Polish Expressways are almost motorways... Some people say that roads are even better than some motorways in western countries.
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Old December 25th, 2011, 11:53 PM   #220
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Sweden is nice overall:

* Pretty relaxed driving culture
I have a feeling that this has slightly changed to more aggressive direction during the last ten years.

Tailgating is more frequent as well as huge speeding. Earlier, the Swedes followed their speed limits rather well, but nowadays driving 50+ kph faster than the speed limit is not infrequent.

Another odd behaviour is rather visible: first overtaking and then dropping the speed lower than the traffic flow, thus causing unnecessary disturbance.

(Last time I was returning home from Germany, I drove from 300 km nonstop from Malmö to Jönköping with the cruise control set to the speed limit (mostly 110 kph). I remember one Volvo bypassing me 6-7 times. After a moment, the Volvo had dropped the speed to 105 kph, and I overtook. After some tens of kilometers, the driver decided to accelerate to 120 kph, and again overtook me. This funny game repeated several times.)
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