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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:40 AM   #181
Nima-Farid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
You are a twisted little turd. DEMOCRACY is the most important component of any society- the right of the people to make their voices heard and have a say in their city, state, country.

There are good reasons why those freeways were cancelled- because they would have incontrovertibly destroyed those cities to make it easier for rich white people to get to and from the core.

The cities you listed are bustling, growing, and vibrant BECAUSE their citizens rejected these proposed ribbons of destruction.
First of all I know democracy is one of the most important thing needed for a society. But this is different. Japan is a democracy, so is South Korea and even Turkey but why don't we hear about cancelled projects there? And if there is an expressway built in the middle of the city, people would have lots of problems in the first year but after lets say 10 years people get used to it and the expressway becoes part of their lives and their lives will be intrupted without it.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:02 AM   #182
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Are you insane? Most of those buildings would have become vacant eyesores, home to squatters and drug addicts, if that concrete monstrosity had been built. No one wants to live next to such a noisy, dirty structure.
That's just our western society. We allow it to get that way. There are many areas in Japan or Korea where expressways are within meters from buildings that are not vacant nor rundown.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 12:44 PM   #183
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And constructing freeways through these "rotten areas" would have made them permanently so. Instead, Manhattan has seen a resurgence in development and revitalization that would have been impossible had your concrete ribbons of destruction been built.
Well this is the fashionable view, but I don't believe it has much basis in reality. I believe it had two flaws: one, it wildly overstated the extent of the destruction, making out huge areas would have to be demolished and frightening people with ridiculous ideas that priceless historical districts were going to be bulldozed. Two, it grossly overstated the negative aspects of freeway construction (you'd be forgiven for thinking they were to be built out of pure plutonium, emitting radiation that would kill everything in sight) and completely ignoring their positive aspects.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 02:47 PM   #184
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Interestingly, Japan appears to have few, if any, canceled expressways. It's truly amazing what they've built there for such a relatively small land area. All flat areas are urbanized and all non-urbanized areas are mountainous.
I know one: Joban expressway. Due to the Fukushima thing .

Although not cancelled (Is still planned), a motorway that should being built now is A-22 between Siétamo and Huesca. They delayed that because of a dispute: Some people wanted it to go far from a castle, and other people wanted it to go far from his town, Tierz; and now due to financial crisis I believe it won't be completed until 2016, while the rest of the motorway to Lerida will be open next year!
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Old September 17th, 2011, 02:53 PM   #185
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I know one: Joban expressway. Due to the Fukushima thing .
Construction is halted because it runs within the 20 km-safety zone of the plant. (6 km actually). It's almost completed, and most certainly not canceled.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 03:03 PM   #186
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Motorways are for bypassing and long distance travel. NOT commuting around inner city areas.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 03:13 PM   #187
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Motorways are for bypassing and long distance travel. NOT commuting around inner city areas.
Well, you can't really compare Europe and the United States in that view. In the U.S. there are large amounts of jobs in inner city areas, much more than in Europe. European office centers are mostly outside the inner city area. It makes more sense in the U.S. to build motorways near the inner city than in Europe. And almost no European city actually has motorways in the inner city. They run near the outside borders of the inner city at best (BP in Paris or A100 in Berlin).

In the case of London, the nearest motorway to bypass the area (M25) is 20 - 25 kilometers from the inner city, which is much more than any other major city in Europe. Even a proposal to complete A406 as a full loop will not result in running through or near the inner city area. A406 is still a good 10 kilometers away from the inner city, which would make it comparable to the Boulevard Périphérique in Paris, or the M-30 in Madrid. Even the Amsterdam A10 is only 3 - 4km from the inner city, but passes mostly through 1950's and 1960's neighborhoods, not the historic center.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 03:39 PM   #188
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Construction is halted because it runs within the 20 km-safety zone of the plant. (6 km actually). It's almost completed, and most certainly not canceled.
I knew it runs too close to the plant. I think it won't be completed in a few thousands of years. But knowing how Japanese people are, I'm sure they will come up with a weird invention for remove radiation.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 04:21 PM   #189
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According to Japanese Wikipedia, it is planned to open the expressway in 2012.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 06:46 PM   #190
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Alicante-Elche Metropolitan Area

In the Alicante-Elche Metropolitan Area we had cancelled Motorways… and necessary in nowadays…



The problem now days is this the most are built… but not as Motorways, and that's the point: This roads are Dual-Carriageways with 80Km/h speed limit and Roundabouts every 1,5~2km, so, if you drive on these roads probably the average speed is no more than 50~60km/h and you mileage (fuel consumption) it's worse than the Spanish Economical Polices

This Dual-Carriageways design are called "Via Parque" (like park road…) but the people I know called this design "Esa ******" (that shit). I called it "Dual-Carriageways'n'roundabouts"
I understand there wasn't enough money for built all the motorways, but, the government could design Dual-carriageways without (or with few) roundabouts, because the people try to avoid this roads.

And in the N-340 and CV-855 the old road was faster than the actual… until the rush hour.

The CV-865 in a constant traffic jam in summerpeople moving between Elche and Santa Pola and people from all Spain (in special from Madrid) to spend their beach vacations in Santa Pola, for that reason is needed a Motorway between Elche and Santa Pola, because has a lot of traffic all year… slow traffic in the mornings… In summer the traffic jams are longer than 5~6km and some times are 13km long (all the road!!). I read it has in some hour more than of 15000 vehicles at day of average. The protect of the future motorway at the beginning a Dual-Carriageway'n'roundabouts (in 1999) and the plan was to begin the construction in 2004, but in 2004 nothing happens, nowadays there is a rumor that says it would be a normal Motorway (Because the people don't want a Dual-Carriageway'n'roundabouts). In wikipedía names this motorway as EL-12, but I didn't find anything about that.

The same problem in the N-332 between Airport (N-338 Road) and Santa Pola. In summers the traffic jams to Santa Pola are longer than 10km. Nowadays there is a Tunnel (dual-carriageway) in El Altet and you don't need to stop in the Traffic Light, but I remember we it was necessary to cross and stop in there… in the summer days was a full traffic jam, one of the most famous and crowded in all Spain. http://www.elpais.com/articulo/Comun...7elpval_23/Tes

Here is the actual map




The A-79 / CV-86 was built for reduce traffic in the old A-7 E-15, nowadays A-70 E-15… Well, the result was more traffic in A-70 E-15, few traffic in A-79/CV-86.

The people don't want to drive in there
. This road need a minumun upgrade: Quit the most of the roundabouts (I count 4 are totally unnecessary ) or upgrade to normal motorway.

Also is need to built the part of A-79 for enter to Via Parque Avenue in Alicante. CV-86 A-79 are part of Via Parque.

This maps show what roads I consider is needed to be built in the future (5~10 years)…



Is very urgent to build the EL-12 Motorway, the CV-865 has to much traffic and Traffic accidents.


Also build a new A-31. This road (not compliant with Motorway standars!!!) has too much traffic, to Traffic accidents, and can't be upgrade due this situation. The new one must to be a 3x3 lanes Motorway Between Elda, Petrer and Alicante, the rest until Almansa (Albacete) can be upgrade and with 2x2 lanes prepared for 3x3 (like A-7 E-15 Motorway between Murcia and Lorca)

The A-70 needs to be a 3x3 motorway, but, if the government quit the toll of the AP-7 between Elche and Campello it won't be necessary to make the A-70 3x3 lanes.


Last edited by Peines; September 17th, 2011 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Errors in the text and in the photos
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Old September 17th, 2011, 07:53 PM   #191
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It's A-79, not A-76. This one will run from Ponferrada to Ourense.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 08:04 PM   #192
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Quote:
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It's A-79, not A-76. This one will run from Ponferrada to Ourense.

FIXED…!
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Old September 17th, 2011, 08:26 PM   #193
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Motorways are for bypassing and long distance travel. NOT commuting around inner city areas.
Perhaps that's true to a large extent in the UK, but I don't think it's true globally.

In South Africa, Johannesburg, Pretoria, Cape Town, Durban and Port Elizabeth all have freeway (motorway) access either right to, or almost right to the city centre. By far the busiest routes, for which freeways have been built, are primarily catering for commuter traffic in and around cities. Long-distance routes generally don't carry enough traffic to justify building freeways.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 08:57 PM   #194
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That's just our western society. We allow it to get that way. There are many areas in Japan or Korea where expressways are within meters from buildings that are not vacant nor rundown.
Well, that is because those nations have very little habitable area so people can't really move elsewhere. That is not the case in the United States.

Come on people. Has common sense gone out the window?
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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #195
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Well this is the fashionable view, but I don't believe it has much basis in reality. I believe it had two flaws: one, it wildly overstated the extent of the destruction, making out huge areas would have to be demolished and frightening people with ridiculous ideas that priceless historical districts were going to be bulldozed. Two, it grossly overstated the negative aspects of freeway construction (you'd be forgiven for thinking they were to be built out of pure plutonium, emitting radiation that would kill everything in sight) and completely ignoring their positive aspects.
In Manhattan, those freeways would have created large dead zones. No one wants to live next to a freeway in the U.S. Manhattan is a shining example of a bustling, vibrant commercial center not gashed by ribbons of destruction. So are Washington D.C. and San Francisco.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:30 PM   #196
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In Manhattan, those freeways would have created large dead zones. No one wants to live next to a freeway in the U.S. Manhattan is a shining example of a bustling, vibrant commercial center not gashed by ribbons of destruction. So are Washington D.C. and San Francisco.
What an exaggeration, and you are making ad hominem arguments.

The area around FDR is very populated.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:46 PM   #197
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What an exaggeration, and you are making ad hominem arguments.

The area around FDR is very populated.
Yes , but for most part , its poor people living along that side of Manhattan. The Highway killed the waterfront which attracts higher income people to that area. Highways in General Depress areas , and turn high / middle income areas into lower income or they increase the crime rate which is seen higher in New Jersey's highway suburbs then the Non-Highway suburbs. I love that the Europeans on this site think they no whats best for the US or even understand what goes on in this country. Of course who am I to say that , because we Americans do it to you guys all the time.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:48 PM   #198
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What if they dig tunnels with TBM and with only 2-3 exits?
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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:50 PM   #199
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What if they dig tunnels with TBM and with only 2-3 exits?
It wouldn't work due to the Depths you would have to go in Manhattan , which would be at least 8 stories like some of the New Rail links and water lines. So the Tunnel would just bypass Manhattan without any exits...
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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:53 PM   #200
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I'm not saying what is best or not. US Census Bureau is revealing data about what Americans actually do in the real world, not the fantasy land in which Northeastern US has returned to be a separate entity where pipe dreams of no-car-land realize.
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