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Old September 17th, 2011, 10:19 PM   #201
Nexis
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I'm not saying what is best or not. US Census Bureau is revealing data about what Americans actually do in the real world, not the fantasy land in which Northeastern US has returned to be a separate entity where pipe dreams of no-car-land realize.
When where we every a separate Entity? Its more what the people want and as the baby boomers Generation gets old , there having an increasingly hard time getting around. Hench why Transit enhancements and expansions are being pushed more and more these days. Transit Developments tend to sell out faster then non Transit developments , so towns are starting change from an Auto-based town to a Transit based town. You can see that happening all over the US... I'm not saying we want a No-car land I said and others have said that there needs to be a balance which there isn't. Which has caused traffic to become nightmare in the growing areas....
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Old September 17th, 2011, 10:56 PM   #202
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I don't think we're talking of the USA specifically, but of urban freeways in general. Obviously not every proposed or possible urban freeway would be desireable, what I am against is the misguided orthodoxy that all urban freeways are bad.

Here's a case in point. In 1962 Settlers Way was cut through the inner Cape Town suburb of Observatory and in 1967 the freeway was completed to the city centre, cutting through Woodstock. That road is of immense benefit to commuters accessing the city.

The orthodox view is that Woodstock and Observatory should have decayed. In fact the opposite has happened.

No decay overlooking Settlers Way

Woodstock looking fine next to Eastern Boulevard

New international conference centre from elevated freeway
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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:08 PM   #203
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It is not my dream to cover for example historical Manhattan buildings with wide areas filled with cars and why shouold I care about other cities? Don't they have their own residents? I saw articles about some cities and I found this disscusion intresting.
Except in your thread title, your first post, and your signature, your supporting the construction of canceled highways, not just opening the topic to a "should they or shouldn't they" discussion. Claiming to be neutral now is not credible.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:10 PM   #204
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And constructing freeways through these "rotten areas" would have made them permanently so. Instead, Manhattan has seen a resurgence in development and revitalization that would have been impossible had your concrete ribbons of destruction been built.

Thank God you have no power.
+1!

Hence my "um, you're proving my point," when Suburbanist brought up the state of Manhattan in the 70s versus now. Which, of course, he ignored.

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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:16 PM   #205
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Well this is the fashionable view, but I don't believe it has much basis in reality. I believe it had two flaws: one, it wildly overstated the extent of the destruction, making out huge areas would have to be demolished and frightening people with ridiculous ideas that priceless historical districts were going to be bulldozed. Two, it grossly overstated the negative aspects of freeway construction (you'd be forgiven for thinking they were to be built out of pure plutonium, emitting radiation that would kill everything in sight) and completely ignoring their positive aspects.
Another one who doesn't know New York.
Suburbanist was lamenting the fact that the Lower Manhattan and Mid-Manhattan expressways weren't built in the 70s, when it would have been easy, because the areas were blighted. Does that exaggerate the extent of the blight? Perhaps.
But what is utterly indisputable is that the hundreds of millions of dollars of development that have taken place directly in what would have been the path of the expressways could not have (because the expressways would have been there, just in case that's not clear). And the fact that it has taken place in spite of the lack of expressways....
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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:24 PM   #206
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It is possible to build skyscrapers on top of expressways, I believe the original plans for the Mid-Manhattan Expressway called for skyscrapers and buildings on top of it. They also did this at the Trans-Manhattan Expressway (I-95).
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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:32 PM   #207
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I'm thinking in particular of what SoHo and TriBeCa (yes, they're spelled that way) are like - the areas between Greenwich Village and downtown Manhattan that the Lower Manhattan Expressway would have run through. What's there now happened naturally, through market forces - i.e. people perceiving the areas as desirable and hip, and - while we can't know, of course - I think it's very unlikely that that would have happened with the expressway cutting a dent through the fabric of the city. Put more precisely, I think it's unlikely, with the expressway there, that those areas would have developed enough of a desirability factor for commercial developers to be interested in building on top of the freeway.

I believe what's on top of I-95 is public housing. Which is a completely different sort of thing (because the government can make it happen - or could, 50 years ago, pre-Reagan and pre-Tea Party - market forces or no). That's also a very different neighborhood. It's close to ten miles from midtown Manhattan and, um, not at the socioeconomic level we're talking about downtown.

And I still haven't had anyone remind me where the Spui in Amsterdam is.... (Yes, I could look it up myself.)
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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:46 PM   #208
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I wonder why New yorkers oppose any kind of developement because it will "ruin bussinesses". The Interstate system ruined the bussinesses of small towns bypassed by the system. Building a designated busway in the streets will damage the bussinesses. So what?? The bussinesses will recover after a while.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:53 PM   #209
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Sigh.

I'm not talking about the individual businesses and whether they recover from an individual project a year after it's built, but about the way a whole neighborhood feels, and the way it evolves over time.

(And I'm not a New Yorker.)

The area that the Lower Manhattan Expressway would have run through has developed in a very different and far more lucrative way (restaurants, nightclubs, art galleries, shopping... and housing for the sort of people who like to and can afford to live near that stuff) than it most likely would have with a freeway running through it.

That said, do businesses that have to close for several months, or have reduced customer traffic for several months, while the street is torn up for a busway, always recover? I'm not convinced of that.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 11:58 PM   #210
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The Areas where the Freeways run are mostly poor and dangerous areas , but before the Freeways were built these areas were the place to live and very safe. Hopefully over the next few decades as this region grows we can go back to Pre-Freeway destruction in the form of covering the Cut Freeways with Parks and demolishing the stubs which would re-connect separated neighborhoods and heal the city. Developers these days hate developing near Freeways hench why those areas stay bad for a long time , they love transit though or wide boulevards.... The Suburban office parks in this region are dying because companies want to be closer to the Airport or Transit which Usually means a Urban area. Employees also tend to like the various eateries in the Urban areas and parks....making working easier....
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Old September 18th, 2011, 12:16 AM   #211
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I know that in some cases the bussinesses will not recover like the Interstate highway example but these bussinesses and the people will get used to the system.

Lower Manhattan Exp. in my opinion is not the main case because the distances are shorter in the south and a shoreline Parkway can be cinstructed instead. I didn't mean only you. I was also talking to Nexis. (His post#201)
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Old September 18th, 2011, 12:21 AM   #212
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I know that in some cases the bussinesses will not recover like the Interstate highway example but these bussinesses and the people will get used to the system.

Lower Manhattan Exp. in my opinion is not the main case because the distances are shorter in the south and a shoreline Parkway can be cinstructed instead. I didn't mean only you. I was also talking to Nexis. (His post#201)
We can't afford anymore decades that it takes to fully recover....this country can't handle any change that will disrupt things for more then 2 years....
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Old September 18th, 2011, 12:31 AM   #213
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It will not take that long to get used to it. 2-3 years at most. for example can you imagine LA without freeways?
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Old September 18th, 2011, 12:53 AM   #214
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It will not take that long to get used to it. 2-3 years at most. for example can you imagine LA without freeways?
Yes , I can...2-3 years is enough to close a business. Which many do , or struggle to survive.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 01:00 AM   #215
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But the traffic caused by destructing all these freeways will be disasterous. Imagine a night that you can't sleep because of the roaring caused by passing cas and trucks.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 01:13 AM   #216
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But the traffic caused by destructing all these freeways will be disasterous. Imagine a night that you can't sleep because of the roaring caused by passing cas and trucks.
Well who said all the Freeways had to , only a few....ie in the Downtown core. Downtowns should be Freeway-Less or Freeways should be underground not obstructing or destroying anything...
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Old September 18th, 2011, 01:42 AM   #217
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I know buthaving to less freeway in downtown core is not that good. In the city I live (Shiraz, 1,500,000 pop.) the traffic is disastrous. Although we have a good public transport system (ie. Lots of bus routes with 15 min freq., busways, metro u/c) it may take 1 hour to travel 2-3 km in city center. every street is filled with cars, even small residental lanes.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 03:29 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It is possible to build skyscrapers on top of expressways, I believe the original plans for the Mid-Manhattan Expressway called for skyscrapers and buildings on top of it. They also did this at the Trans-Manhattan Expressway (I-95).
Probably won't happen post 9/11, the possibilities of a truck bomb would scare most people away from such a thing. It would be an ideal thing to do though.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 09:19 AM   #219
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You know this fear won't last forever especially after arab spring. people want freedom and democrocy (turkish style rather than western style). They suffered from violence enough. I think after 15 years everyone will forget such a fear and then this thing can be built!
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Old September 18th, 2011, 12:07 PM   #220
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The Areas where the Freeways run are mostly poor and dangerous areas , but before the Freeways were built these areas were the place to live and very safe.
The areas where most freeways were built were, mostly, areas that were already dilapidated, reservoirs of poverty or already on the process of decay. They did many a neighborhood a favor by accelerating its clearance because it was hopeless to recover it. Sometimes the whole social system built-up around a neighborhood is wracked, and disbanding the neighborhood with nw infrastructure serving other areas of the city is an awesome win-win way to achieve that.

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Probably won't happen post 9/11, the possibilities of a truck bomb would scare most people away from such a thing. It would be an ideal thing to do though.
Truck bombing near the ground is more dangerous.
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